Should the Bible be given an 18 rating.

john47832 wrote: »

I dont think its the reading part that would worry me, more the preaching part - preaching the bible to under 18s should be restricted - by then at least there is a little room for that individual to make up their own mind

Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Speech

Two fundamental rights.

How on earth are you going to stop under 18 year olds going to church not ignoring the fact that the house church movement can facilitate this.

The whole point is that the Bible as a collection of books (very important to note) has something to say from the very youngest of us to the very oldest of us. Pretty much what I would anticipate from a holy text that gives us a description of the human condition, and a way to deal with the human condition according to the will of it's Creator.

Freedom of religion.

Errrrr, define religion. Anything can be a religion, just look at Scientology.

We only mean recognised religions.

Doesn't this violate... Freedom of Religion?

No, you are free to practice the religions we tell you to.

I see...

ShooterSF wrote: »

Jakkass where do you find these "rights"? Freedom of speech?

UN Declaration of Human Rights - Article 18 wrote:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

UN Declaration of Human Rights - Article 19 wrote:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Irish Constitution Article 40:6 wrote:

The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.
The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.

Irish Constitution Article 44:1 wrote:

Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

^^ Internationally and nationally these rights are regarded.

ShooterSF wrote: »

So would you suggest that Call of Duty shouldn't carry an age restriction? What about violent movies?

Do you understand the difference between a movie and a book?

(Hint. The book is the one with leaves of paper with little black squiggles on them).

Jakkass wrote: »

Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Speech

Two fundamental rights.

How on earth are you going to stop under 18 year olds going to church not ignoring the fact that the house church movement can facilitate this.

The whole point is that the Bible as a collection of books (very important to note) has something to say from the very youngest of us to the very oldest of us. Pretty much what I would anticipate from a holy text that gives us a description of the human condition, and a way to deal with the human condition according to the will of it's Creator.

Well it seems that to some people of no religion, Call of Duty Modern Warfare says something to them. I'm going to have to come straight out and ask you, can you accept that your religion's bible means absolutely nothing to some people and is instead (to some) nothing more than a collection of scary bedtime stories? Often extremely violently graphic ones at that.

The "should the bible be banned" question I always find interesting and demoralising at the same time for the same reasons. Of course it won't be banned and of course there won't be censorship but it's the power of asking the question and making that statement is what's most interesting. I don't agree with censorship and certainly not censorship of books (such as Last Exit To Brooklyn which was banned in the UK upon publication, and probably here too but then again the church banned anything and everything they wanted didn't they!) but catholicism is given far too much "freedom" in this country. It's in many state buildings and institutions such as hospitals and schools and hell, there was a bloody bible on each polling booth table in my polling station for the Lisbon referndum!

toiletduck wrote: »

No I don't think so. However I would say that for any book. And the bible certainly is a thoroughly unpleasant one.

I suppose there is a question as to why we rate certain media suitable for certain ages but not others.

I will never understand why The Passion of the Christ was 15PG though.

Sorry for being a smart arse here but it's not that hard to understand why it got that rating is it? It was to allow children to see that sick filth (such language has been levied upon films for decades, I use it purely for the polemic). Considering the country you're in and the ruling religion it should be of no surprise that it got the 15PG. As far as I remember (I worked in a cinema) the 15PG rating was relatively new at the time.

Seperation of church and state may be written into law but the Irish Film Censor (who acts under and reports to the Minister of Justice) laid out its cards on the table a few years ago when it, for some bonkers reason, made that decision that it was cool to let kids view the grotesque violence shown in the film The Passion of the Christ, albeit accompanied by a parent or guardian aged 18yrs or more. In this film you saw a man flogged with shards of metal and just about beaten to near-death - this is realistic and styilised violence and the scenes portrayed in teh film amounted to a prolongued torture sequence with no context other than the context christians added to it. This should've been absolutely no different compared to violence in any other film and should've been treated as such. Instead, it was given a special case and children as young as toddlers in parents arms viewed the horrificly pornographic scenes of violence in this picture.

The only difference between IFCO and the BBFC (British censor) is that the Irish certs are often higher and the IFCO take into account the "context" of a film on a national scale. In this little Q&A, they say Veronica Guerin was given a lower cert than the UK one because Irish people would've been familiar with the story. Same goes for Michael Collins I suppose as when released, it was given a PG for "historical significance" - I think then a special 12RA cert was created afterwards for its video release.

I may as well go out on a limb and say that The Passion got a lighter rating because Ireland's seen by the powers that be - in the Justice dept. and Censor's office- as a Catholic country (some priest said as much on Prime Time last week! secularism my foot). Maybe there was a phone call put in to the IFCO at the time to ensure The Passion cleared teh censor with no hassle? Maybe? maybe not.

Also, Catholocism + homosexuality = does not go, so Brokeback Mountain, when you take into account the context of releasing such a film in Catholic Ireland, allowing 15year olds and potentially younger teenagers view it, it had to get a restrictive certificate.


Here's a recap of the IFCO :

• Passion of the Christ was given this 15PG (under 15s can be accompanied by an adult over 18) - 18 in the UK
• Then Bad Santa came out and it wasn't quite worthy of the '18' so it got the lower grade which was '15PG'. Parents saw the "PG" attached and brought their kids to it and several complaints were lodged. It even made the 9PM RTE news - this film has a drunk foul mouthed Santa having anal sex!.
• After this debacle the IFCO just "created" yet another age limit - the 16 cert.
• Brokeback Mountain was released with a 16cert despite having very little graphic sexual or violent images (at least not out of context and it's all about context). It then of course was released with an '18' cert on video/DVD.

By the way Jakkas, isn't blasphemy outlawed in the constitution as well? And is soon to be passed in law (or has it already passed?)


*NB. IFCO = Irish Film Classication Office, formerly Irish Film Censor. They act under the the "Censorship of Films, 1923" and the "Video Recordings Act, 1989"

Zulu wrote: »

In relation to the OP's question: No. We don't apply age ratings to books, so why would we start with the Bible?

No but books can be banned.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Well it seems that to some people of no religion, Call of Duty Modern Warfare says something to them. I'm going to have to come straight out and ask you, can you accept that your religion's bible means absolutely nothing to some people and is instead (to some) nothing more than a collection of scary bedtime stories? Often extremely violently graphic ones at that.

Well, I would generally focus on a reasonable assessment of what the Bible is rather than an assessment based on people who have no interest in it, or who have taken no interest in assessing it's contents.

If you really think the Bible means nothing to you, have nothing to do with it at all seems to be the solution rather than trying to interfere with other peoples religion.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

The "should the bible be banned" question I always find interesting and demoralising at the same time for the same reasons. Of course it won't be banned and of course there won't be censorship but it's the power of asking the question and making that statement is what's most interesting. I don't agree with censorship and certainly not censorship of books (such as Last Exit To Brooklyn which was banned in the UK upon publication, and probably here too but then again the church banned anything and everything they wanted didn't they!) but catholicism is given far too much "freedom" in this country. It's in many state buildings and institutions such as hospitals and schools and hell, there was a bloody bible on each polling booth table in my polling station for the Lisbon referndum!

Freedom of religion and conscience is a right. As is freedom of speech.

I'm not a Roman Catholic, so I am glad that the censorship of books here has ended.

I want to be free to hold whatever religious belief I have chosen, and parents should be entitled to share that faith with their children.

See this is my problem with people who claim to argue for mere secularism, but actually want to do far more. I wish more people would be as honest as you are about what you want.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Sorry for being a smart arse here but it's not that hard to understand why it got that rating is it? It was to allow children to see that sick filth (such language has been levied upon films for decades, I use it purely for the polemic). Considering the country you're in and the ruling religion it should be of no surprise that it got the 15PG. As far as I remember (I worked in a cinema) the 15PG rating was relatively new at the time.

No doubt it was assessed on grounds of language, how sexually explicit it was and so on. In the case of the Passion of the Christ, in terms of it's message, and the value in that message philosophically and religiously they decided there should be some leeway in the matter. I'm quite sure that if other films contained such a strong and a pervasive message in a secular context or in any other religious context they would be given the same leeway.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

The only difference between IFCO and the BBFC (British censor) is that the Irish certs are often higher and the IFCO take into account the "context" of a film on a national scale. In this little Q&A, they say Veronica Guerin was given a lower cert than the UK one because Irish people would've been familiar with the story. Same goes for Michael Collins I suppose as when released, it was given a PG for "historical significance" - I think then a special 12RA cert was created afterwards for its video release.

Other cases then, of the same thing occurring as in the case of the Passion of the Christ.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

By the way Jakkas, isn't blasphemy outlawed in the constitution as well? And is soon to be passed in law (or has it already passed?)

Yes, it is. Most Christians in Ireland disagree with the blasphemy law. We believe it is more fruitful for people to express their objections to our faith freely. If it isn't free objection, how can we ever hope to provide a meaningful response?

Alan Rouge wrote: »

No but books can be banned.

In a Western society with freedom of speech and conscience, why on earth would we?

I thought I made my position on the blasphemy law clear?

Jakkass wrote: »

I thought I made my position on the blasphemy law clear?

Yar matee, indeed ye did. But I was talkin' 'bout ye olde Irish Constitution, the fundamental laws of landlubbers such as yerselves, which sets restrictions of yer freedom of speech, not tha' infernal Defamation Act 2009, me hearties.