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Knock yesterday

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  • 02-11-2009 1:01am
    #1
    091Brian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭


    I was at Knock yesterday and I wanted to express what I saw.

    I had friends who saw the sun dance at Knock last time, so I was hoping to see or disprove something. I arrive there at 3PM and joined the very large crowd outside the chapel, I wasn't aware that Joe Coleman and another large group were packed in the Basilica. I looked towards the sun and although I saw a very amazing display of the sun glimmering, shinning and a display of colours I've never seen before as well as incredible cloud formations, I couldn't call it a miracle, although a great demonstration of the miracle of the creator. During that time, there were various outbursts of people cheering and clapping, but I was unsure of the cause of their exuberance.

    Then around 3:30PM, I heard a commotion and saw a very large croud racing into the field beside the bascillica. Many of the people near me started running towards them to see what the commotion was and out of curiosity I slowly followed. It was very strange to see such a large crowd race across the field and then the crowd changed direction. I then learned that the people were following Joe Coleman who was being escorted by security. I aslo spoke to several people who were in the Basillica who claimed while praying in the Basillica they heard a large bang and the building shook and everyone ran out at once, although myself and others who were outside didn't hear or feel anything.

    I find it strange that the media accounts I saw didn't say much about the mass exodus from the church. I also find it odd that one report indicated that most of the people were travellers. Now there was a large traveller presence, but they were far from the majority and everyone there were very respectable and pious.

    I also find it strange that the Church that denied abuses for years are also denying this. Now I'm not claiming to have seen a miracle, but I did see some strange occurances, maybe even mass hesteria, but I will be going back on the 8th of Dec.


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    #2
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Some media outlets report something like that about the screaming and people exiting the church on mass.

    At a guess though I'd say most media reports were written by folk who weren't actually there, I dunno maybe they were?

    I wasn't there and I'm not gonna troll you, but I will say this :
    Before you consider what you saw as something supernatural you must be absolutely certain you have eliminated everything natural possibility.:)

    Like Medjagorie (cannot spell) the Church has to be more skeptical than ardent skeptics...I dunno maybe someone else here you could enlighten you on this as I'm not a Catholic (or Christian for that matter) but I think the apparitions usually undergo some sort of investigation before hand and they're usually not seeked out or foretold.


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    #3
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Hi Brian,
    I was in Knock on sat (or passing through) at around 3:00 PM and I guess I saw much the same sky as you, which I’m afraid I wouldn’t describe it as anything more profound than an interesting Autumn sky.


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    #4
    091Brian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭091Brian


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Before you consider what you saw as something supernatural you must be absolutely certain you have eliminated everything natural possibility.:)

    I never said I saw anything supernatural, it could have been natural, but still amazing. The Grand Canyon or the Cliffs of Moher are amazing, but still natural.

    I saw one media report that did mention something about the people exiting the church on mass, but it played it down too much, to me, that was the most amazing thing seeing all those people flooding out to the field as if there was a fire and they were running for their lives and it's also amazing no one was seriously injured during the exodus.

    I also understand how the Church needs to investigate all claims, but their reaction seems to be more dismissal as opposed to cautious.


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    #5
    091Brian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭091Brian


    lugha wrote: »
    Hi Brian,
    I was in Knock on sat (or passing through) at around 3:00 PM and I guess I saw much the same sky as you, which I’m afraid I wouldn’t describe it as anything more profound than an interesting Autumn sky.

    What I saw changed quickly and many of the amazing bits didn't last too long, also everyone didn't seem to see the same thing and at the same time. I'm still not convinced what I saw was supernatural, but far beyond an interesting Autumn sky.


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    #6
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    You either saw the Virgin Mary or you didn't. That is what 'Humble Joe' was claiming people would see in their (50)thousands. Well?
    I'm sorry, sunshine is not a vision, no matter how you want to spin it.


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    #7
    091Brian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭091Brian


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    You either saw the Virgin Mary or you didn't. That is what 'Humble Joe' was claiming people would see in their (50)thousands. Well?
    I'm sorry, sunshine is not a vision, no matter how you want to spin it.
    Sorry fat mammy cat, things aren't that clear cut. I'm telling you what I saw, although sunshine is pretty unusual in Ireland, I saw a lot more than just sunshine, but I'm not saying it was a miracle, but amazing. I actually though the bizarre exodus from the church was even more amazing.


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    #8
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    By all accounts it certainly was a miracle nobody got injured.


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    #9
    RGDATA!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭RGDATA!


    091Brian wrote: »
    Sorry fat mammy cat, things aren't that clear cut. I'm telling you what I saw, although sunshine is pretty unusual in Ireland, I saw a lot more than just sunshine, but I'm not saying it was a miracle, but amazing. I actually though the bizarre exodus from the church was even more amazing.

    maybe the reason for the exodus from the church was that the guy coleman said something, or got up and left suddenly and somehow prompted those around him to follow. he had a lot of people there in his thrall and hanging on his every move. doesn't seem very bizarre to me, but i wasn't there, maybe i'm missing something.


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    #10
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    091Brian wrote: »
    I'm not saying it was a miracle, but amazing. I actually though the bizarre exodus from the church was even more amazing.
    Mass hysteria?

    I remember when I was a kid that I'd stare at the sun and see much the same phenomenon as described here. It's not big and clever as it can seriously damage your eyesight.

    Some Christians marvel in the richness of the world each day and don't require some seer to predict a heavenly firework display.


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    #11
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sounds like mass hysteria to me! Nobody should be looking for signs and miracles. It belies a very shallow faith.

    I just hope Mr. Coleman isn't the new Christina Gallagher!

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #12
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    091Brian,

    A long reply which I will section off with titles to make more readable:

    GET YOUR EYES CHECKED

    The first thing I would urge you to do is, even if you feel fine now, go to an optician to check on your eyes. That long spent looking directly, or near directly, at the sun is intensely dangerous to the eyes and can cause damage with both immediate and postponed effect. Even if you feel no ill effects from the exercise now, it is best to be safe than sorry and get yourself checked before giving any ill effects time to settle in. If you know anyone else who was there then for their sake urge them the same way.

    BE CAREFUL IN FUTURE EVERYONE

    The second thing I would urge you and everyone else to do is NOT engage in this practise at all. Looking and even staring at the sun is intensely dangerous to your sight. If you do attend this gathering again as you indicated above you might then for the sake of those around you urge them the same way.

    If a man urged others to step off a cliff or into on coming traffic the person in question would be penalised within the law. That this man is encouraging a potentially damaging act to hundreds of people that could essentially lead to a handicap and getting away with it is a mockery of our justice system.

    “OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN!”

    The third thing I would call attention to here is your claims of seeing something above and beyond that of a normal autumn sky. I have zero doubt that you did. However the explanation for this is not to be found within the pages of the Bible or any other such scriptures.

    You can find the explanation for it merely by going to your local video store and watching “Dead Poets Society”. Remember the scene where he made everyone stand on a desk and look at the class room from a new angle?

    Essentially most humans do not notice the ordinary. They do not stop to look at the sky or the hills or the houses. When they do, they tend to do it the same way every time. It takes an outside influence to make people look at these things and then to look at them in a different way.

    Essentially what the man has done is to make people look at something they often would not, and while doing it to make them change the way they look at it. Often when you look at something in a new way you are surprised by what you see there that you never saw before ( I often point to this as a sample of what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77muTz0_II). All Coleman is doing is cashing in on this surprises and attributing the divine to what is merely the numinous.

    PEOPLE WORSHIP FIRST THE IDEA THEN THE MAN

    Finally I would call stark attention to what 091Brian described in terms of the mass hysteria directed towards Coleman himself. To me this is essentially the first steps in how religions like Mormonism, Scientology and others form. It may be arguable that Jesus acquired his fame the same way. It is the perfect formula for personal success and it seems no matter how often it is practised it continues to work.

    Essentially you latch on to a superstition that is already established and make wild claims on its basis. Even if, as we see with Coleman, you fail perfectly to deliver on your claims, hysteria still builds up around you. At some point this switches from being AROUND you to being TOWARDS you and you get elevated beyond your station.

    Given that no one has offered me any evidence for the existence of a god, I am in no doubt that the works of Jesus occurred in the same way. Like Coleman he likely made claims he could not deliver on, but for which there were always a number of people willing to claim he had (faith healers work on the same principle, as does Coleman). This first causes a sensationalist reaction to occur AROUND the person, and then finally TOWARDS the person.

    Observe closely what Coleman has done and does next and how people react to it and honestly ask yourself if a man in bronze aged times surrounded by mostly illiterate and superstitious people would have had to do anything different to achieve the same effects. Ask yourself then if you can understand why Atheists on this forum reject your claims about this man in the same way, and for the exact same reasons, that you reject the claims of Coleman or Sathya Sai Baba. The worship of a mere man who gets a few things spot on right is something our species does all too easily.


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    #13
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    091Brian wrote: »
    I also find it odd that one report indicated that most of the people were travellers. Now there was a large traveller presence, but they were far from the majority and everyone there were very respectable and pious.
    .

    And???

    So what If travelers were in the majority?
    Are you saying there not respectable and pious? You seem to want to distance yourself from a group in Irish society that is constantly looked down upon and vilified. How very Christian of you.


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    #14
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    091Brian wrote: »
    During that time, there were various outbursts of people cheering and clapping, but I was unsure of the cause of their exuberance.

    I was at a U2 gig in Stade de France recently. Pre-gig someone near me pointed up higher in the stand towards the boxes. Folk around us (me included) began turning to look up. Others began to point and still others began looking. Before long, thousands of people were looking and pointing and smiling up at the boxes. Nobody knew what we were all supposed to be looking at.

    I also find it strange that the Church that denied abuses for years are also denying this. Now I'm not claiming to have seen a miracle, but I did see some strange occurances, maybe even mass hesteria, but I will be going back on the 8th of Dec.

    Perhaps the Church in her wisdom realise that even a Marian apparation can't be determined to be a miracle from God (as opposed to a sign and wonder from the evil one)?


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    #15
    uncleoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    panda100 wrote: »
    And???

    So what If travelers were in the majority?
    Are you saying there not respectable and pious? You seem to want to distance yourself from a group in Irish society that is constantly looked down upon and vilified. How very Christian of you.

    In fairness I think the OP was reacting to the fact that most reporting of this seems to imply that only travellers would believe this stuff. He also said EVERYONE there was respectable so your question is nothing but sh*t stirring.

    I hate the way this Joe Coleman seems to be given a voice in the mainstream media but never really challanged, are reporters afraid?


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    #16
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    panda100 wrote: »
    And???

    So what If travelers were in the majority?
    Are you saying there not respectable and pious? You seem to want to distance yourself from a group in Irish society that is constantly looked down upon and vilified. How very Christian of you.

    :rolleyes: If there's one thing more irritating than bigots, its the folk that look for opportunity to point the finger at people for being bigots.
    'Look at how tolerant and liberal I am by picking up for the minorities.' It reeks of feigned outrage, not to mention that the OPs comments do not seem to be portraying any such message.


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    #17
    flanzer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭flanzer


    Could someone with a post count of more than 4 please give a real account of what happened?

    I'm looking out the window here and there is a cloud in the formation of Elvis' hair do with a sun shining through it like a Las Vegas stage light. Could this be for real?


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    #18
    Ajfunky
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Ajfunky


    I think for one this was a horrible event to "predict". If, hypothetically, my granny went to knock and hadnt seen the apparition when others say they did, she would be crushed spiritually. She's gone to church every day for the last 80 odd years, roasary every night etc. and for our lady to appear to everyone else except her? Did she do anything wrong? No, she just isnt having hysteric hallucinations created by mass controversy.

    I dont deny that everyone there may have felt uplifted and peaceful. Of course they did! you get that many people in the same place for the same reason, there is a distinct awe of something richeous. Its the same in Lourdes. Im an atheist, and i went to lourdes, and it was amazing. One of the best experiences of my life. Only because of the level of tranquility and the respect shown for the place.

    Like another poster said, I think we may see the start of Colemanism soon, as he is already segregating his church for lack of security and undressing the alter. Eep.


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    #19
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Nothing happened. Coleman was on the radio earlier- another of his reluctant interviews I'm sure, this time on Joe Duffy- and he tells one lie after another. Let's look at the facts of the matter.His prediction was that 50,000 people would go to Knock and they would witness the Virgin Mary herself. This did NOT happen, and no amount of wittering on about clouds, sunshine or the sky is going to alter that.
    Yet according to him on the radio 20,000 people saw our lady' er, no they didn't. There wasn't even 20,000 in attendance. He berated people who where there and saw nothing, he was very aggressive and defensive with them, how dare they challenge him.
    He was also cheerfully lying away on the radio about his earnings, he is on disability- odd for a healer wouldn't you say? caims he doesn't have an income yet was happily charging people 4o-60 euros a pop the other year from 'Spiritual guidance' and 'Seances' he also charged for classes in 'spritual development. He rents a room out to deal with the public, and now only accepts 'donations' for his work. Honestly the man is an ought and ought fraud of the highest order, he released press releases for yesterday's performance and had a PR representive witih him. He is like the Derek Acorah of mystics.
    It's really disturbing to think so many people are fulled by his despicable guff. But in fairness to him, he has let the media do half his PR for him, he will be RAKING it in through 'donations' for the next few years.


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    #20
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    flanzer wrote: »
    Could someone with a post count of more than 4 please give a real account of what happened?

    This might be of interest...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1102/1224257902496.html

    ... a disgusting story. Some women even abandoned babies in prams to run off and find this "vision". That some people can be so badly duped... by belief in a deity no one has provided a scrap of a shred of evidence for... that they leave their own children, the most special thing in their lives.... to run off and find a non-existent vision that they some how have been convinced is more special again..... I don't know.


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    #21
    Benincasa
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Benincasa


    Any authentic visionaries I have ever heard of have shunned the limelight, acted with humility and treated the Church, and bishops and priests, with great respect.

    That is most definitely not happening here.

    That's not to say that there's nothing supernatural happening; I'm sure that Satan would love to lead 10,000 well intentioned people astray and to weaken their respect for the Church while making them believe that they were really spiritual and pious.

    Christ said it very clearly: it is a wicked and adulterous generation that looks for a sign (Matthew 16)


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    #22
    Bougeoir
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Bougeoir


    Benincasa wrote: »
    That's not to say that there's nothing supernatural happening; I'm sure that Satan would love to lead 10,000 well intentioned people astray and to weaken their respect for the Church while making them believe that they were really spiritual and pious.
    Oh what great explanation! Geesh it makes perfect sense now! Mary didn't pop up as expected and people overhyped things by letting their imaginations run wild! But you know, it's just the devil pulling his usual strings again because after all, if there isn't a good, valid, rational explanation for things, we can always just say "Oh it's Satan causing this by misleading them and therefore leading the flock astray!". Thanks for shedding light on things by the way! :)


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    #23
    KetchupKid
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭KetchupKid


    I find it ironic that people are saying that Mary didn't show because she doesn't exist and there's no God and then there are others saying it wasn't Mary, but Satan.


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    #24
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    What's ironic about that? People naturally believe different things.


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    #25
    Benincasa
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Benincasa


    Bougeoir wrote: »
    Oh what great explanation! Geesh it makes perfect sense now! Mary didn't pop up as expected and people overhyped things by letting their imaginations run wild! But you know, it's just the devil pulling his usual strings again because after all, if there isn't a good, valid, rational explanation for things, we can always just say "Oh it's Satan causing this by misleading them and therefore leading the flock astray!". Thanks for shedding light on things by the way! :)

    Where did I say that there was a definitive demonic or satanic explanation? Where did i say that it wasn't mass hysteria and hype? Where did i say that there wasn't a completely natural explanation for these things?

    I never said the words you are putting into my mouth.

    My original comment was that those who are convinced that there is something supernatural at work need to consider the possibility that it is something supernatural of evil origins, because one thing is for sure, and that's that there's nothing from heaven going on here.

    The original paragraph you quoted still stands, however. I am sure that satan would like to lead people astray. But I never said that that was what was definitively happening in this particular case.

    I am sorry that my original post was not sufficiently detailed for you to see this. But then again, perhaps I could never make it clear enough for you, perhaps you just wanted to jump to conslusions about what I was trying to say.


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    #26
    JacquesD'Ladd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 85 ✭✭JacquesD'Ladd


    I was also there on Saturday, and I saw all the things that the OP stated. However, I also saw the following:

    1. A disc which seemed to be in front of the sun. This disc broke up precisely at the end of the whole solar phenomenon.
    2. At this exact moment, people came rushing out of the basilica. Apparently they had heard a thunderous noise, which none of us outside heard at all.
    3. I also looked at where the crowd was rushing. But what hasn't been mentioned is there was a clear and strong yellow light reflected all round the people following the visionaries. This washed all the surrounding parked-car windscreens, peoples clothes, and followed the movement of the visionaries as they made their exit around the grounds.
    4. I spoke to a couple afterwards, who were in the church. When they exited they saw a blue light flash across the sky (which is vaguely reported online in the MayoNews). He got a phone-cam snap of this light. It was a fantastic blue glow which stood out from the rest of the sky. I'm only sorry I didn't ask him to forward it on to me.

    Something big did happen saturday. However, I can't rule out all possible natural causes. I don't know the origin of these things, but I am led to believe that it was never meant to be explicit. What I do feel is that we are meant to question it from an open-minded perspective.

    One thing which has never been posited in all the media-driven hysteria, nor mooted by the church: why aren't the visionaries invited to undergo scientific tests and probes, while in a possible trance-state? This is what happened in Medjugorje and Garabandal.

    For the sake of decency, the media spotlight on such tests should be extremely sensitive: the media glare at the aforementioned apparitions wasn't so extreme as it is here.


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    #27
    toiletduck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


    If people are going to keep on with this, I would urge them NOT TO LOOK DIRECTLY AT THE SUN! It's amazing that this even needs to be pointed out.

    Construct a pin-hole camera if you insist on the whole notion!


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    #28
    JacquesD'Ladd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 85 ✭✭JacquesD'Ladd


    Oh, and I did see the illumination of the statue of the Blessed Virgin, from a good distance outside the chapel with a crowd in front of me. And I felt a real tenderness and happiness at that moment, which i hope will stay with me for the rest of my life.


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    #29
    Gulliver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    The Irish Times reporting style has become very tongue in cheek. Some pretty good lulz in the report linked earlier in the thread:
    At 3.20, there was a kerfuffle at the upper end, opposite the choir stalls. A rush of relieved people galloped for the doors. “She’s outside. F*** ya! We shudda stayed outside!” squealed one of the girls, and they took off for the swelling stampede.
    It’s just the sun, we said to the lad next to us. “Do you not see the colours?” he pleaded. “Sure people took pictures of it the last time, and they saw a lady in it.” I looked up, for sure, but not for too long, because it hurt. Half blind, I headed indoors and tripped over a child in the gloom.
    “A minute ago it was beaming, changing from Our Lady to Our Lord,” insisted Jason. And if you looked hard enough, you could indeed discern a face in the play of light and shadows. When I squinted a certain way, I thought I could make out Bruce Forsyth.

    (My emphasis)

    If people want to believe that they saw something and it gives them comfort, maybe we should just leave them alone. However, if this Joe character starts a massive scam, they could turn very nasty.


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    #30
    Niner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Niner


    That chancer Coleman let himself down,even more, on Liveline yesterday. When challenged, which was rare on the show for some reason, he reacted very angrily at times, forgetting that he's supposed to be some sort of 'channel of peace' and instead almost reaching for the broken Bud bottle! :p


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    #31
    Spacedog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭Spacedog


    God once appeared to me in a vision and told me that he was a figment of my imagination and assured me once and for all, that he was not real.

    - I forgot to mention it to the media or anyone else until now. Is there a number you can call to report visions? or are we supposed to keep the messages that don't co-inside with the status quo to ourselves?


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