Everybody Else is Doing It !!

Sponge Bob · 29-09-2009 10:12am #1

Ireland gets dial up instead ...in the form of Midband

I saw some scary numbers recently , they concerned a country that is much poorer than Ireland but one that is determined to have a top class Telecommunications infrastructure ...not like us .

Portugal has around 4.5m homes of which 1/3 are in large towns and cities and have cable ...just like us really .

In Portugal the eircom equivalent proposed last year to fibre the cities and towns up , the UPC equivalent then joined in and now the eircom/upc and bt/worldcoms of Portugal are all agreed on using ONE Fibre network in the cities and large towns.

You may get 100mbit Cable BB already with 1Gb announced .

From talking about it in 2008 the Portugese have signed contracts in 2009 and will finish digging in 2011 . Ireland will not even have 1/3 of households near an ADSL2 exchange by then the way things are going .

The really scary news comes from further away. GREECE started talking about FTTH in 2008 as well. Greece is going through the permissions in Brussels right now and will launch the tender to fibre 2m out of around 4.5m homes in early 2010 .

Yes that means that Greece will catch up with us and overtake us around 2011 as well .

Meanwhile let us go back to Ryan and Boyle when they talked the Shane Ross BB Infrastructure Bill out of the Seanad last October

Ryan ( BB ) has tended to be delivered more quickly where there has been competition between different platform providers, between a cable company and a fixed line company or mobile companies which are now coming in

Ryan is utterly wrong. Truly Broad Band requires the big players to use one ubiquitous fibre network .

Once you see the Greeks getting the finger out you should realise the game is up if you do not follow them. Of that there is no sign in Ireland .

Ryan Another fundamental development in the Bill is setting out the targets we would achieve. We must be careful when talking about targets, although not in the level of ambition we might wish to have

Everybody else is wrong but you , are they ??

Ryan then regaled us with how he tried to roam ( on an INCOMPATIBLE NETWORK) in Korea.

Ryan I could not connect my mobile telephone to the network. I could not run Skype on the network. I could not send a single 5 Mb video file from the convention centre.

The last word went to Dan Boyle in his Eamon Ryan Eulogy .

Boyle It is not facetious to say that he knows in computing terms the plural of “mouse” is “mouses”. He is the one Cabinet member with a knowledge of how particular technology choices in this area work.

Now it is probably too late to do anything I am sorry to say

bealtine · 29-09-2009 11:26am

So lots of other countries are "doing it" right now, that is clear and the important point to notice is that it took two years or so to go from consultation to doing it. Here it takes two years to issue another consultation.

When all the other countries have "done it" we will still be rolling out the excuses just like it outlines here.

We need one fibre plan for the country and all the telcos use the fibre to feed their various sites and we need it yesterday.

Sponge Bob · 29-09-2009 12:11pm

bealtine wrote: »

We need one fibre plan for the country and all the telcos use the fibre to feed their various sites and we need it yesterday.

I would argue we need one plan but with asymettric objectives over the next 3 years . But we certainly need a plan like the Shane Ross plan that Ryan objected to last year .

1. FTTH ( to the premises ) or FTTN ( to within 100-500m of every household) in cities and large towns . Generally the red areas on the map below and containing around 50% of the population .

2. FTTN ( to within 20km) of every household in the rest of the state and with this fibre feeding every mobile base station in the rest of the state by end 2011 .

Legislative action on common ducting published by January and enacted by March 2010 .

And yes , we needed it yesterday but Ryan shot down Shane Ross and we do not have time to reanimate Shanes plan for universal FTTH/FTTN by 2012 any more .

We have lost a full year and need to do something really urgent to keep up with the Greeks and Portugese . We have no chance of catching up with leaders like Holland , the Scandinavians or Slovenia who are too far ahead for us to catch up by 2012 .

All of this is predicated on Comreg and Ryan abandoning their pompous fallacy that Ireland is in any way competitive or visionary , it most certainly is not

It is further predicated on the dangerous assumption that there is any official desire to get Ireland at or above the average EU Investment Level in telecommunications as a % of GDP where we are currently very bottom out of 27 .

( from the census 2006 )

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/Amended%20census2006_%20Volume%201%20Pop%20Classified%20by%20Area.pdf

Page 9 Red High Density and Grey Low .

rob808 · 29-09-2009 6:03pm

The thing is were stuck on dsl for the next 5 to 8 notting will get better by then hopefully eircom be out of debt then and invest but by then the rest of europe be finishing up laying down the final fibre while we be just starting but only good new would be dublin will be mostly cable by then and eircom would still only have country side

Sponge Bob · 29-09-2009 6:18pm

rob808 wrote: »

The thing is were stuck on dsl for the next 5 to 8 notting will get better by then hopefully eircom be out of debt then and invest

eircom will not build a network like this and cannot ever pay off the debt they have right now.

only good new would be dublin will be mostly cable by then and eircom would still only have country side

That is the way it is going right now but Dublin has ( by European standards) very low grade cable which requires replacement as well as fibre laying close by .

Anyway UPC are welcome to deliver BB and HD Video and TV down a fibre to the home as are eircom .

rob808 · 29-09-2009 7:13pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

eircom will not build a network like this and cannot ever pay off the debt they have right now.

That is the way it is going right now but Dublin has ( by European standards) very low grade cable which requires replacement as well as fibre laying close by .

Anyway UPC are welcome to deliver BB and HD Video and TV down a fibre to the home as are eircom .

They will i was just saying it would take them 8 years or more years before they even start investing anyway. why would upc even launch 120mb broadband if the cable so poor could u explain either way i cant get upc which suck i live in meath,i know ireland will never be like germany and even poland which is funny and also latvia, we are 3 year behind england 5 years behind EU and america.The thing is we never have FTTH just vdsl+2 and adsl+2 because our goverment are thicks and have to wait years before we even have good broadband and get the green party out of power fing idiots know notting about what this country needs.

bk · 29-09-2009 8:12pm

UPC has been systematically replacing it's cable in Dublin and elsewhere with high quality new cable.

Sponge Bob · 29-09-2009 8:14pm

eircom probably will not even exist in 8 years. they have revenue ( slowly shrinking) of €2bn a year and well over €4bn of debt including their pension fund deficit .

There won't be an economy in 8 years unless very large scale national investment is carried out now by building out an open access network , we simply cannot wait for eircom or for 8 years either .

By then the average European City will be running 10Gigabit or higher .

UPC , while good, does not serve business ...(or Meath) , or indeed more than 40% of the population with any form of cable .

UPC is not building new network but upgrading what it has and much of what it has is 550mhz cable not higher spec 750mhz or 1Ghz stuff which means it must be replaced even if relatively recent plant and Docsis 3 with max speeds of 120mbits is only on trial right now .

Only 60% of the UPC network is 550mhz or higher right now. Cox in the US will be 100% 1Ghz cable by next year .

eircom seeming only has enough money to upgrade around 150 exchanges a year right now, it would take 3 years to put VDSL in Dublin alone at that rate .

rob808 · 29-09-2009 8:37pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

eircom probably will not even exist in 8 years. they have revenue ( slowly shrinking) of ?2bn a year and well over ?4bn of debt including their pension fund deficit .

There won't be an economy in 8 years unless very large scale national investment is carried out now by building out an open access network , we simply cannot wait for eircom or for 8 years either .

By then the average European City will be running 10Gigabit or higher .

UPC , while good, does not serve business ...(or Meath) , or indeed more than 40% of the population with any form of cable .

UPC is not building new network but upgrading what it has and much of what it has is 550mhz cable not higher spec 750mhz or 1Ghz stuff which means it must be replaced even if relatively recent plant and Docsis 3 with max speeds of 120mbits is only on trial right now .

Only 60% of the UPC network is 550mhz or higher right now. Cox in the US will be 100% 1Ghz cable by next year .

eircom seeming only has enough money to upgrade around 150 exchanges a year right now, it would take 3 years to put VDSL in Dublin alone at that rate .

I know what u mean ireland screwed when it come to broadband were going to be stuck in 20 century for along time while rest of EU laughing at us in 21 century broadband

Sponge Bob · 29-09-2009 9:06pm

The EU laughing at us is one thing, the Greeks laughing at us is too much to bear.

Back in 2001 the EU Produced a large report "Broadband Access In Europe"

Ireland

Ireland has been described as a hot prospect for the future of IT and broadband
services, based on relatively high PC penetration in homes and relatively high levels
of Internet usage.

Portugal

Although some cable subscribers can connect to the Internet at high-speed, the overallenthusiasm for the Internet has not been as great as in most other Member States.

Only around one in ten people are regular users of the Internet in Portugal, and there
has been no evidence of the sharp rises in penetration observed in other European
countries.

Greece

Greece is the least developed of the Member States in terms of broadband access.

Demand is relatively low compared to other Member States, and the fixed access
market in Greece has been slow in adopting new technologies.

Not any more they aren't . Once Greece and Portugal start to get very serious it is time for us to realise how far we have fallen, relatively , since the early part of the decade .

We had better have diggers on the footpath by end 2010 or else there will be no smart digital green knowledge blah waffle fiannagreen ANYTHING within 5 years

The game is very nearly up !

rob808 · 29-09-2009 9:19pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The EU laughing at us is one thing, the Greeks laughing at us is too much to bear.

Back in 2001 the EU Produced a large report "Broadband Access In Europe"

Ireland

Portugal

Greece

Not any more they aren't . Once Greece and Portugal start to get very serious it is time for us to realise how far we have fallen, relatively , since the early part of the decade .

We had better have diggers on the footpath by end 2010 or else there will be no smart digital green knowledge blah waffle fiannagreen ANYTHING within 5 years

The game is very nearly up !

The game is all ready up ireland going to be at the bottom like to see what Eamon ryan TD has to say fing idot that said ireland doesn't need fast broadband

bk · 30-09-2009 12:56am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

UPC , while good, does not serve business ...

Sorry, I know it is off topic, but UPC does have a business arm and extensive range of business products from 2mb/s leased lines up to 1Gb/s Metro Ethernet!!

http://www.upc.ie/b2b/

They also sell business versions of their cable BB services.

BTW I 100% agree that we need to go build out national, shared fibre and go as deep as possible.

Duiske · 30-09-2009 1:11am

Spongebob, given all the bluster from the Government since Farmleigh, such as Ireland becoming the Silicon Valley of Europe, etc etc, then isn't it safe to assume that the Goverment can actually see the benefits of a national fibre network similar to what you describe above ?

So whats stopping them from acting ? The intial cost ?

I'm no economist, far from it, but even I can see that a first rate communications infrastucture, combined with both an already highly educated young population and a low corporation tax regime, will lead to more multi-national companies wanting to invest here.
More investment = more jobs = more tax revenue.

I'm not even sure what the initial cost would be, maybe in the region of 1.5billion ? Thats 3% of cost of the bonds being issued to cover the NAMA costs. Im also assuming the ongoing costs (staff, maintenance etc) could be covered by charges to companies connecting to the backbone ?

And whats the chances of money being thrown at a private company, on the brink of collapse, to build and run such a network ?

Some skeptics might say that the failure to build a "proper" national fibre network is down to pure incompetance on the part of the Goverment, but it can't be that. If they were that incompetant the country would be flat broke already, right ?

Sponge Bob · 30-09-2009 1:21am

BK. UPC pass very few business premises .

Duiske wrote: »

Spongebob, given all the bluster from the Government since Farmleigh, such as Ireland becoming the Silicon Valley of Europe, etc etc, then isn't it safe to assume that the Goverment can actually see the benefits of a national fibre network similar to what you describe above ?

No, they think they can bluster a market that does not exist into building it.

So whats stopping them from acting ? The intial cost ?

That and 'fear' of Europe after all the BS that happened behind the NBS

I'm no economist, far from it, but even I can see that a first rate communications infrastucture, combined with both an already highly educated young population and a low corporation tax regime, will lead to more multi-national companies wanting to invest here.
More investment = more jobs = more tax revenue.

Correct. Only as long as there is transparent and economic access to such a network.

I'm not even sure what the initial cost would be, maybe in the region of 1.5billion ? Thats 3% of cost of the bonds being issued to cover the NAMA costs. Im also assuming the ongoing costs (staff, maintenance etc) could be covered by charges to companies connecting to the backbone ?

Totally correct, half what Anglo already got.

And whats the chances of money being thrown at a private company, on the brink of collapse, to build and run such a network ?

Less than 0 . even Bertie would have said no.

Some skeptics might say that the failure to build a "proper" national fibre network is down to pure incompetance on the part of the Goverment, but it can't be that. If they were that incompetant the country would be flat broke already, right ?

Difficult to answer all of that. National fibre was not allowed until very recently and then ONLY if the Government admitted to the EU that competition did not work . Ryan was afraid to do so.....still is

That had better change , NOW !

Galen · 30-09-2009 6:55am

It is hard to decide whether to laugh or cry.

DingDong · 30-09-2009 1:30pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

UPC , while good, does not serve business ...(or Meath) , or indeed more than 40% of the population with any form of cable .

UPC is not building new network but upgrading what it has and much of what it has is 550mhz cable not higher spec 750mhz or 1Ghz stuff which means it must be replaced even if relatively recent plant and Docsis 3 with max speeds of 120mbits is only on trial right now .
.

The upgraded network to this point has been built to 862Mhz with next years build looking to be spec'd to 1GHz.Most of the networks built since 94 have been a 750Mhz design, albeit with 450Mhz amps in some cases, but its just a case of changing the insert to get them up to the higher frequencies. They do serve a large number of businesses. As part of the rebuild provision is left for SME. They also have a large number of fibre customers including large multinational companies,banks and some rival ISP's. They also serve a number of smaller towns(Kilcock,Sallins etc)not just the large ones. If UPC have there way they will have a wireless product for its standalone MMDS customer comreg willing. This is more of a national broadband scheme than the current lets build a network for 3 plan.
Most Telecomms company will swap, share or even sell each other ducting or fibre, but not eircom who are the most anticompetitive of them all. It really is a crime they have such a great infrastructure and its not being put to its full potential

Apogee · 30-09-2009 7:23pm

DingDong wrote: »

If UPC have there way they will have a wireless product for its standalone MMDS customer comreg willing.

It would make more sense to close down MMDS completely when the licences expire and open up that part of the spectrum to competition from other wireless ISPs.

oscarBravo · 30-09-2009 7:51pm

Mmmm, licensed 2.5GHz... of course, they'll probably auction it for 3G.

ednwireland · 09-10-2009 4:16pm

and portugals warmer

Galen · 09-10-2009 5:36pm

It's time we learned Portaguese and buggered off to Portagal.

SkepticOne · 10-10-2009 11:34pm

DingDong wrote: »

The upgraded network to this point has been built to 862Mhz with next years build looking to be spec'd to 1GHz.Most of the networks built since 94 have been a 750Mhz design, albeit with 450Mhz amps in some cases, but its just a case of changing the insert to get them up to the higher frequencies. They do serve a large number of businesses. As part of the rebuild provision is left for SME. They also have a large number of fibre customers including large multinational companies,banks and some rival ISP's. They also serve a number of smaller towns(Kilcock,Sallins etc)not just the large ones. If UPC have there way they will have a wireless product for its standalone MMDS customer comreg willing. This is more of a national broadband scheme than the current lets build a network for 3 plan.

What percentage is still 450 Mhz cable (note not amplifiers actual cable)?

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 1:26pm

SkepticOne wrote: »

What percentage is still 450 Mhz cable (note not amplifiers actual cable)?

40% or so from what I remember . They still haven't finished upgrading Galway and Cork and Limerick which were mid 1980s 450mhz ( max) install back then and parts of Dublin are 1970s installs ...even now.

Never mind Athlone Sligo etc .

Everybody Else is Doing It !!

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