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Civil Partnership Bill 2009 has been published!

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    #2
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    *Groan*. Equal but different.


    Quick question -- if I were to 'register a civil partnership' with my Brazilian boyfriend, would he be given the same rights to Irish citizenship as if we were to marry?


    Also.. has this bill been passed now, or is their extra discussion/debate/blah required?


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    #3
    4red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭4red


    Goodshape, you'll have to read through the Bill, the information will be contained there. But given that the Bill provides tax, inheritance, and next-of-kin rights to gay couples who register in exactly the same way as is currently provided to married couples, I would hope your partner would gain citizenship rights were you both to register.


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    #4
    4red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭4red


    Goodshape, to answer your second question, publication of the Bill today means it is in effect passed - although 'second stage discussion' will have to take place in the Dail in the Autumn. This is generally a formality, and most legal and other commentators would now see Civil Partnership as a done deal. Once the formalities are through, the Bill should become law in a matter of months. The Minister of Justice has said "before the end of the year".

    As stated in the Bill, if you wish to register your partnership you have to provide notice 3 months in advance. So no shotgun weddings!


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    #5
    oisindoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭oisindoyle


    Goodshape wrote: »
    *Groan*. Equal but different.


    Quick question -- if I were to 'register a civil partnership' with my Brazilian boyfriend, would he be given the same rights to Irish citizenship as if we were to marry?


    Also.. has this bill been passed now, or is their extra discussion/debate/blah required?

    No dont think so ...
    Its to go before the Dail and will probably be enacted before the end of the year,,,Mr Ahearn said this Bill IS NOT a steping stone to gay marriage and it wont be happening in the future.......so there you have it FF have come out and said gays and lesbians will always remain second class citizens,,,,,F""k them ,,,the fight begins NOW


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    #6
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    So I can have the same legal relationship with my brother as I can with my boyfriend.
    It's just odd and completely insulting. They'll have to do better.


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    #7
    solice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭solice


    I find it peculiar that 2 people of the opposite sex cannot enter into a civil partnership:
    Civil Partnership Bill wrote:
    3.—For the purposes of this Act a civil partner is either of two
    persons of the same sex who are—
    (a) parties to a civil partnership registration that has not been 5
    dissolved or the subject of a decree of nullity, or
    (b) parties to a legal relationship of a class that is the subject
    of an order made under section 5 that has not been dissolved
    or the subject of a decree of nullity.

    That is also discrimination!


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    #8
    oisindoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭oisindoyle


    Reflector wrote: »
    So I can have the same legal relationship with my brother as I can with my boyfriend.
    It's just odd and completely insulting. They'll have to do better.

    Yes it is insulting .So tell them,, complain ,protest ,e mail ALL members of the Government .Let them know you are not happy at being treated as a 2nd class citizen ..
    Its a disgrace


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    #9
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    *sigh*

    When will they learn... "separate but equal" is not true equality.


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    #10
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    I saw this in the boards main page and thought "finally, they are giving equality"
    Sorry guys but this look like being an effort at appeasment than equality.

    Why you can not show your committment to your partner, as easy as I can baffels me.

    I personally think that this is an insult to everyone in a same sex relationship.

    Actually it insults me too, that friends of mine will not be equal to me


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    #11
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    I saw this in the boards main page and thought "finally, they are giving equality"
    Sorry guys but this look like being an effort at appeasment than equality.
    That's basically what it is, what Fianna Fáil are thinking is along the lines of "Oh look, we can shut those uppity queers up for a while, and maybe they'll vote for us". It's not an attempt at true equality, in fact it's enshrining discrimination in law by recognising same-sex relationships in a different, weaker manner to how opposite-sex relationships are currently recognised through marriage.


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    #12
    oisindoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭oisindoyle


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    I saw this in the boards main page and thought "finally, they are giving equality"
    Sorry guys but this look like being an effort at appeasment than equality.

    Why you can not show your committment to your partner, as easy as I can baffels me.

    I personally think that this is an insult to everyone in a same sex relationship.

    Actually it insults me too, that friends of mine will not be equal to me

    Thats a really nice thing to say,Thanks very much your words meant a lot


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    #13
    4red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭4red


    While I would agree that full marriage equality (including adoption rights) would be the best result for Irish gay people, I am not now going to get into the arguments for or against this - including the fact that to amend the definition of 'marriage' to incude gay marriage in the Irish constitution would require a referendum which would in no way be guaranteed to pass through.

    However I would like to speak on behalf of those gay couples, particularly older ones, who face serious discrimination which would be erased by this Bill.

    We all know of cases like the following:
    A gay man in his late sixties is prevented from attending the hospital bedside of his dying partner by the partner's family.
    A female gay couple with a son facing the unimaginable when the biological mother is diagnosed with a terminal illness - the remaining mother has no parental rights to the son she reared with her deceased partner.
    A 35 year old gay man who has lived with his 50 year old partner for 12 years is turfed out of their shared home on his partners death and has no inheritance rights whatsoever.

    Please bear in mind there are many gays and lesbians who welcome Civil Partnership as a necessary and in some cases urgent legal right.


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    #14
    mobius42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭mobius42


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    That's basically what it is, what Fianna Fáil are thinking is along the lines of "Oh look, we can shut those uppity queers up for a while, and maybe they'll vote for us". It's not an attempt at true equality, in fact it's enshrining discrimination in law by recognising same-sex relationships in a different, weaker manner to how opposite-sex relationships are currently recognised through marriage.

    And even then, FF only brought it up because the Greens pushed for it as part of the Programme for Government (Not that I'm the Green's biggest fan, either).

    The issue of gay rights gets very little attention in this country for whatever reason and I imagine the Liveline brigade would be up in arms at any attempt to introduce gay marriage. However, if a referendum was held on the issue, I think most people would support gay marriage and gay rights in general. Political will is the only thing missing, IMO.

    I also find it ironic that Dermot Aherne is the minister introducing this measure considering that he opposed the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1993. The article is too long to completely quote here, so I'll just post a link: http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2008/may/25/ministers-slammed-over-anti-gay-speeches/


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    #15
    4red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭4red


    "I'm 28 years old … I had surgery when I was 23. My partner was kicked out of the room — at that time, we'd been dating for four years or something — and in the rudest, most f---ed up way. That s--t is real, and that's what I don't think people realize. They're like, "Oh, gay marriage." No, you try being a really scared 23-year-old in this hospital room that's 3,000 miles from home, and the only person that you have is your partner, who can't stay because you're not married or they're not your relative. That's insane and absolutely scares me to death."

    — Beth Ditto to Spinner.com, on how the lack of rights for gay couples has affected her personally.


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    #16
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Personally I don't know why you're all getting your knickers in a twist about this.

    Its been long documented what would be in the bill. So it doesn't give you everything you want right now, everyone knew this already.

    But it does represent a move in the right direction, I would have thought people would see this as another step closer to your goals, rather than a kick in the teeth.


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    #17
    oisindoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭oisindoyle


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Personally I don't know why you're all getting your knickers in a twist about this.

    Its been long documented what would be in the bill. So it doesn't give you everything you want right now, everyone knew this already.

    But it does represent a move in the right direction, I would have thought people would see this as another step closer to your goals, rather than a kick in the teeth.

    You do have a wonderful way with words.....Its ok for you because YOU are not treated as a 2nd class citizen and YOU can marry tomorrow if you so wish ..So gay people have every reason to "get their knickers in a twist"...
    Its NOT a move in the right direction ,,only today Mr Ahern stated quite clearly that this is not a stepping stone to gay marriage (or marriage as I call it ,no distinction should apply) and he also said its not going to happen in the near future ...
    Well I am sorry thats not good enough for me ,I want and deserve EQUALITY,,,,,,,,FULL STOP


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    #18
    4red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭4red


    I do think it ironic that the work of marriagequality and others in pushing for full civil marriage is what has caused the Govt. to introduce the lesser civil partnership. But this is the way politics and legal change often works. If you examine many other civil rights movements in the last century, progress came about in stages, not in one fell swoop.

    While I do not feel like lauding the Govt. (in particular the Greens) in any particular way, I for one, will be celebrating the Bill during this Pride weekend.


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    #19
    anoisaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭anoisaris


    4red wrote: »
    While I would agree that full marriage equality (including adoption rights) would be the best result for Irish gay people, I am not now going to get into the arguments for or against this - including the fact that to amend the definition of 'marriage' to incude gay marriage in the Irish constitution would require a referendum which would in no way be guaranteed to pass through.

    However I would like to speak on behalf of those gay couples, particularly older ones, who face serious discrimination which would be erased by this Bill.

    We all know of cases like the following:
    A gay man in his late sixties is prevented from attending the hospital bedside of his dying partner by the partner's family.
    A female gay couple with a son facing the unimaginable when the biological mother is diagnosed with a terminal illness - the remaining mother has no parental rights to the son she reared with her deceased partner.
    A 35 year old gay man who has lived with his 50 year old partner for 12 years is turfed out of their shared home on his partners death and has no inheritance rights whatsoever.

    Please bear in mind there are many gays and lesbians who welcome Civil Partnership as a necessary and in some cases urgent legal right.

    I'm not sure why you have used these scenarios as a case for partnership when the partnership bill (as far as I know) affords no legal rights in regard to parenting or the hospital situation I think inheritence is the only issue of those points resolved by the bill? The only true protection awarded by the bill is financial.

    Surely your first two points are an argument for marriage not partnership!?


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    #20
    Splatterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Splatterly


    Please bear in mind that some of us welcome this legislation


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    #21
    anoisaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭anoisaris


    Splatterly wrote: »
    Please bear in mind that some of us welcome this legislation

    What aspects of it-out of interest? I'm sure plenty do welcome the interheritence, tax and welfare aspects of course.


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    #22
    Splatterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Splatterly


    anoisaris wrote: »
    What aspects of it-out of interest? I'm sure plenty do welcome the interheritence, tax and welfare aspects of course.

    I do welcome the inheritance, pension, tax, next of kin and recognition rights in this bill. I welcome the fact that my partner and I can have our ceremony with our family and friends; and it will be recognised.


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    #23
    anoisaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭anoisaris


    Splatterly wrote: »
    I do welcome the inheritance, pension, tax, next of kin and recognition rights in this bill. I welcome the fact that my partner and I can have our ceremony with our family and friends; and it will be recognised.

    Where are the next of kin rights?


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    #24
    the lady
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭the lady


    I'm not sure why you have used these scenarios as a case for partnership when the partnership bill (as far as I know) affords no legal rights in regard to parenting or the hospital situation I think inheritence is the only issue of those points resolved by the bill? The only true protection awarded by the bill is financial.

    Surely your first two points are an argument for marriage not partnership!?[/QUOTE]

    Section 10 of the bill is entitled "Miscellaneous Consequences of Civil Partnership Registration" and covers power of attorney etc.. amending relevant Acts in order to replace the term "spouse" with "civil partner", i think that has the hospital covered and any sort of major decision making but i'll have to have a read of it again in a few days to make sure i've not missed anything


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    #25
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Co-habiting opposite sex partners can be treated almost as "married" for the purposes of social welfare claims whereas same-sex co-habitants cannot. I've had a look at the bill but I'm not sure if this will now change? I'm assuming the social welfare thing was some sort of incentive to marriage - so would we now be told to get a civil partnership even though it's not equal?

    I couldn't also see anything in the bill about medical treatment - the closest was a clause relating to the Mental Health Act concerning admitting partners. There's also a bit about the right to act as Attorney for your partner but I'm not sure what powers that confers.
    Reflector wrote:
    So I can have the same legal relationship with my brother as I can with my boyfriend.

    No you can't. The Bill covers that -
    "A person may not enter a civil partnership with someone within
    the prohibited degrees of relationship, as set out in the table 5
    below. Relationships within that table should be construed as
    including relationships in the half-blood (e.g. sibling includes a
    sibling where there is only one parent in common, etc.), and all
    the relationships include relationships and former relationships
    by adoption."

    That includes, for a man brother, father, grandfather, nephew, and uncle as well as adopted siblings and half-brothers. Similar applications for women.


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    #26
    anoisaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭anoisaris


    "the Bill is silent in relation to health care. In fairness, there is no
    legislation on this point even in relation to married couples, the issue being one
    of medical ethics and thus governed by Medical Council guidelines. It is
    however, unfortunate that this issue is not explicitly addressed. Given that most
    hospitals in the State are denominational, there is an understandable concern that
    civil partners be formally recognised as each other’s next-of-kin. Arguably, the
    proposed general ban on discrimination against civil partners may address this
    concern. The better view, however, may be that the matter needs to be
    addressed squarely so that ethos cannot be invoked to prevent partners from each
    other’s company at a most vulnerable time."

    http://www.iccl.ie/publications/Equality/iccl_book_Web_F12_129579.pdf


    The same paper addresses the issue of children in legislative gaps in the bill. (it was in response to the general scheme of the bill but think same applies to bill as now published?)


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    #27
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    oisindoyle wrote: »
    You do have a wonderful way with words.....
    Thanks it's always nice to be appreciated.
    oisindoyle wrote: »
    Its ok for you because YOU are not treated as a 2nd class citizen and YOU can marry tomorrow if you so wish ..So gay people have every reason to "get their knickers in a twist"...
    Yes it rocks to be me. But regardless this is still a recognizable step forward for same-sex couples providing them a raft of legal protections.
    True it might not go as far as some people would wish, but its forward motion none the less. For that reason I would have expected people to be a bit more positive about it.
    oisindoyle wrote: »
    only today Mr Ahern stated quite clearly that this is not a stepping stone to gay marriage (or marriage as I call it ,no distinction should apply) and he also said its not going to happen in the near future ...
    Ultimately its for the electorate to decide how far this goes in the long term, he like other misters is there at our sufferance.
    oisindoyle wrote: »
    Well I am sorry thats not good enough for me ,I want and deserve EQUALITY,,,,,,,,FULL STOP
    Bully for you, but I expect many will understandably not cut of their noses to spite their faces and avail of the opportunities this bill provides.


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    #28
    anoisaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭anoisaris


    There are not many opportunities to avail of in the bill itself as it stands (tax and welfare etc are promised in a future Finance and Social Welfare bill for civil partnerships but not within the Civil Partnership Bill itself).


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    #29
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    anoisaris wrote: »
    There are not many opportunities to avail of in the bill itself as it stands (tax and welfare etc are promised in a future Finance and Social Welfare bill for civil partnerships but not within the Civil Partnership Bill itself).

    Fair enough, you've most likely covered the bill more than I have. But the fact remains these things are on the way which is a good thing.


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    #30
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    4red wrote: »
    I do think it ironic that the work of marriagequality and others in pushing for full civil marriage is what has caused the Govt. to introduce the lesser civil partnership. But this is the way politics and legal change often works. If you examine many other civil rights movements in the last century, progress came about in stages, not in one fell swoop.

    While I do not feel like lauding the Govt. (in particular the Greens) in any particular way, I for one, will be celebrating the Bill during this Pride weekend.

    You're right but it should not have to be. **** sake, it's the year 2009. Why are we still treating people disequally. We are all the same.
    Tell you what, you go on protest to the dail and you have your first straight rainbow flag waving supporter right here


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    #31
    Yoda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Yoda


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    I personally think that this is an insult to everyone in a same sex relationship.

    Maybe. But we live in a country where the politicians are cowardly, don't we?

    Having some rights, responsibilities, and protections is a better thing than having NO rights, responsibilities, and protections. Ireland should do better, but let not the best be the enemy of the good. For the alternative is worse.


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