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Musicians not getting paid, exploitation, stupidity or acceptable?

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  • 28-04-2009 12:06am
    #1
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭


    This just came to mind from a dressing down i got from Savman on another thread. I am just wondering, how musicians, or indeed non-musicians feel on this topic.

    An old saying my dad used to say comes to mind, 'If you work for nothing, you'll always have a job'.

    So, do most go along with Savmans view that musicians should just be thankful to get 'opportunities'? Personally, I think if a musician is not paid (doesn't necessarily have to be monetary), then they are putting no value on their time or their craft, and they are just leaving themselves to be exploited. I've seen many things like, 'its a good opportunity for exposure'. Personally I think thats the biggest crock of sh!te, but maybe thats just me. I'm not saying that much can be done, as for every person like myself who wouldn't work for free (though i used to:(), there's a shedload who would. I understand why they would too. It'd just be good to have a mature, calm discussion over it. What do you think would be the ideal, from the musician, promoter and venue points of view? Or do you think everythings hunky dory?

    Be an interesting discussion I think, if we can keep it civil:) I'd appreciate none of these:rolleyes: little feckers. Those who don't want to contribute more than saying, 'oh not this again' or some such, just refrain from posting if you can.

    Hopefully the thread will get some legs.


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    #2
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    Do you have a link to the other thread? When you mention not getting paid do you mean just not getting paid to do gigs? What about giving lessons or sitting in as a session musician on a studio recording?

    From a gig point of view I certainly wouldn't expect to get paid if it was one of the first few gigs my band was doing and we were the opening act. On the other hand if we could guarantee a reasonable-sized following at a gig then I would expect to get paid


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    #3
    Soundness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Soundness


    Well, depends you're doing cover or originals..when you're doing originals you're promoting your own music so I would agree with you malice, you have to do a bit of sacrifice, the time to be established a little bit.
    But it's true also that if musicians start to play for nothing or peanuts, they're should be banned from all stages, I mean, you spend your lifetime working on your instrument to become a good (f...great) musician...It is certainly not to be given away..


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    #4
    Savman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    Oh not this again :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




    :pac:
    Some bands don't deserve to get any kind of financial renumeration because they are so bad. The ones that are good, should.

    Personally I hate this "i dont do free gigs" mentality, there has to be give and take.


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    #5
    stevood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭stevood


    On the amateur circuit (unsigned), it becomes about the crowd. The more you bring, the more you get paid. This was the basis for my bands first gig. We brought about 50-60 and got paid 200 euro.
    Some promoters do try take advantage of inexperience and will not be this fair.

    If you want to earn the cash or see the risk a promoter takes, book a venue yourself, find the support acts and fill the venue. (If you think bands should be paid, you can see then how much you "should" pay the support acts regardless of what crowd they bring.)


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    #6
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    Soundness wrote: »
    Well, depends you're doing cover or originals..when you're doing originals you're promoting your own music so I would agree with you malice, you have to do a bit of sacrifice, the time to be established a little bit.
    But it's true also that if musicians start to play for nothing or peanuts, they're should be banned from all stages, I mean, you spend your lifetime working on your instrument to become a good (f...great) musician...It is certainly not to be given away..
    Hang on, first you say that bands have to sacrifice getting paid in the beginning to establish themselves but then you turn around and say that if they start to play for nothing they should be banned? Which is is? Or do you mean that if they are still playing for nothing after establishing themselves that they should be banned? If so, I agree to a certain extent, they shouldn't be banned but they deserve a kick in the arse :).
    Savman wrote: »
    Some bands don't deserve to get any kind of financial renumeration because they are so bad. The ones that are good, should.

    Personally I hate this "i dont do free gigs" mentality, there has to be give and take.
    I agree with all of those points Savman.


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    #7
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Savman wrote: »
    Oh not this again :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    :)

    Firstly, this is a rhetorical discussion, so I'm not expecting sweeping changes etc. Just a bit of a 'put the world to right type discussion. Imagine a couple of pints and your opinion mattering in the world:).

    :pac:
    Some bands don't deserve to get any kind of financial renumeration because they are so bad. The ones that are good, should.

    I agree here, but I ask why are they given a gig then? To me that is the venue and the promotors fault. Having no pride in 'their' work. If they actually gave a sh!t about their reputations etc, they'd make sure that they associated their name with decent bands. I used to support the original music scene, going to random nights etc. It just became too painful for me. I left most, and by most, I'd say 9 out of 10 gigs, thinking, 'Do they actually filter these acts or what?' Now that was me, someone who was 'trying' to support the scene, looking out for good songwriters etc. The randomer that most bands want to attract, yet I gave up on the scene due to there being such dire acts. I understand tuesdays wednesdays etc being a buffer night etc, but I was checking out friday Saturday nights most of the time, and the quality did not increase much.

    In my ideal world, Venues would take a bit of pride in their establishment. They would filter out the cr@p, and make the venues 'randomer friendly'. If this means telling original bands to play a certain percentage of covers, then so be it. I know I, and alot of folk I know would have went to venues, if they developed a reputation for putting on good acts. Something like: Friday Funk night, Thursday blues, Saturday Indie etc. If you knew that the venue got good bands in, you'd go based on the venues A&R, and thus both the bands and the venue benefit from the 'Randomer', and that randomer becomes a regular.

    Personally I hate this "i dont do free gigs" mentality, there has to be give and take.

    I got that from the last thead:) So what is the give and take in your opinion? Also, do you see a problem with the current scene? If so, do you think there is anything that would fix it?


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    #8
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    malice_ wrote: »
    Do you have a link to the other thread? When you mention not getting paid do you mean just not getting paid to do gigs? What about giving lessons or sitting in as a session musician on a studio recording?

    Applies to all tbh.
    From a gig point of view I certainly wouldn't expect to get paid if it was one of the first few gigs my band was doing and we were the opening act.

    So at what point is it not your first few gigs?


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    #9
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So at what point is it not your first few gigs?
    That's a good question :). I suppose once your band is gigging regularly e.g. once a week/month or whatever and the band is pretty settled i.e. you're not changing drummers all the time.


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    #10
    EL_Loco
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭EL_Loco


    Haven't played in a few years but from what I've seen gig types can be broken down into a number of categories (more than I'll list here I'll wager) anyways:

    DIY:
    you've booked a venue yourself, they probably provide a sound engineer, a mixing desk and their house PA. All other equipment is brought by yourself. As far as the venue is concerned you can do what you like. You've paid them, if no one turns up it's your tough crap, if you pack the place all the same to them (excluding bar receipts of course). In this circumstance, I try to pay the support act. I factor in the fact you've taken the financial risk, you've brought the equipment and it's "your" gig. On the flip side I factor in the crowd the support act brings as obviously they've paid in too. If you end up in the black, share the wealth. Clearly not 50/50 but something for the support act.

    Competitions:
    I think this is going to be a freebie, can't really argue there. you're playing to win the prize whatever it may be, plus it's a bit of exposure.

    The promoter's gig:
    Hate these, the old buy 30 tickets for a fiver and sell them for whatever you like. Probably playing on a saturday afternoon with 6 other acts. Did a couple as a teenager, wised up fairly fast. Sure the venue might have a good name but foot traffic is zero in the afternoon, you're playing to the other band's friends who most likely up and leave when their pals are done.

    The supporting an established band gig:
    This is the tricky one, you can clearly be playing with a very good band who will fill the place no matter who they have supporting, and they may even be semi famous. This one's a judgement call, a good crowd will see you, and you'll get the exposure which never hurts.
    It's the band that *think* they'll fill the place and are doing you a favour and come the day you're looking at 50% of your mates in the crowd, and you've some patronising cock trying to deny the fact. See the "DIY" above, alright there's leeway because they've put in the graft of doing most of the leg work, but at the end of the day you're responsible for taking in half of the takings. You should get something in that case as support.

    Point being you should have some sort of agreement before starting. I always like to get paid, and I always like to share the wealth when you've pulled off a profitable gig. Not everyone's as socialist as me though ;)

    So, I wouldn't rigidly state I'd never play for free, but I used try and minimise those occasions.


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    #11
    Savman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So what is the give and take in your opinion? Also, do you see a problem with the current scene? If so, do you think there is anything that would fix it?
    I'm not disagreeing with any of your points, I just think they are far too idealistic and don't stand a chance out there in the real world. The sooner artists realise it's a cuthroat game the better, bar and venue owners are not concerned about what's right for the band, they care only about what's right for the bank. This never changes no matter what level you reach.

    If and when you do end up getting paid, the f*ckers will kick up a storm about having to do it. You're then into the rules of business and if the product or service you are offering is not up to scratch, be prepared to get ripped to shreds by people with no artistic discretion whatsoever. These people don't care how long it took you to learn that Stairway solo, they are worried about the number of times the Bud tap gets pulled on any given night, period. This gets passed onto middlemen or promoters who in turn hassle the band for a drink-buying crowd. And round and round we go.

    Bands think it gets easier when they start getting paid for gigs, in all honesty it gets harder than they thought because there is no room for manoeuvre. You are now a practicising professional and arriving up late, playing out of tune, singing off key, using bad language over the mic, going on stage pissed etc etc is a no no. You will not be asked back. Most bands don't make the step up.


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    #12
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    @EL Loco: A fair outlook IMO. I suppose I'm thinking one of the biggest issues these days is that venues are more like expensive function rooms.


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    #13
    red_ice
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭red_ice


    i did the dublin scene for 2 years until i left my band, and i have to say its VERY hard to get a paid gig in dublin. Theres a hand full of nights who will give you a cut of the door. Other than that you have to make your own gigs.

    Honestly, i believe that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. But there has to be a few gigs in between where theres a little income. 100 quid is the usual pay for a small indy night. However, if we were in this for the money we wouldnt be living in ireland would we? :pac:


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    #14
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Savman wrote: »
    I'm not disagreeing with any of your points, I just think they are far too idealistic and don't stand a chance out there in the real world. The sooner artists realise it's a cuthroat game the better, bar and venue owners are not concerned about what's right for the band, they care only about what's right for the bank. This never changes no matter what level you reach.

    I agree. In all walks of employment etc its the same. The venue owner's gotta pay the lease afterall. IMO though I think that they are loosing business with their current lazy approach. Even now, if I'm going out on a saturday night I'll likely end up somewhere like Bruxells. Why? Because I hate hip hop and dance music. I'd much prefer a good live band, and with the amount of venues in town I should be spoiled for choice. I think it would be win, win. As you say though, its maybe too idealistic.
    If and when you do end up getting paid, the f*ckers will kick up a storm about having to do it.

    You said it!
    You're then into the rules of business and if the product or service you are offering is not up to scratch, be prepared to get ripped to shreds by people with no artistic discretion whatsoever. These people don't care how long it took you to learn that Stairway solo, they are worried about the number of times the Bud tap gets pulled on any given night, period. This gets passed onto middlemen or promoters who in turn hassle the band for a drink-buying crowd. And round and round we go.

    Bands think it gets easier when they start getting paid for gigs, in all honesty it gets harder than they thought because there is no room for manoeuvre. You are now a practicising professional and arriving up late, playing out of tune, singing off key, using bad language over the mic, going on stage pissed etc etc is a no no. You will not be asked back. Most bands don't make the step up.

    I agree.


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    #15
    Seany
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Seany


    JimiTime wrote: »
    :)



    I agree here, but I ask why are they given a gig then? To me that is the venue and the promotors fault. Having no pride in 'their' work. If they actually gave a sh!t about their reputations etc, they'd make sure that they associated their name with decent bands. I used to support the original music scene, going to random nights etc. It just became too painful for me. I left most, and by most, I'd say 9 out of 10 gigs, thinking, 'Do they actually filter these acts or what?' Now that was me, someone who was 'trying' to support the scene, looking out for good songwriters etc. The randomer that most bands want to attract, yet I gave up on the scene due to there being such dire acts. I understand tuesdays wednesdays etc being a buffer night etc, but I was checking out friday Saturday nights most of the time, and the quality did not increase much.

    In my ideal world, Venues would take a bit of pride in their establishment. They would filter out the cr@p, and make the venues 'randomer friendly'. If this means telling original bands to play a certain percentage of covers, then so be it. I know I, and alot of folk I know would have went to venues, if they developed a reputation for putting on good acts. Something like: Friday Funk night, Thursday blues, Saturday Indie etc. If you knew that the venue got good bands in, you'd go based on the venues A&R, and thus both the bands and the venue benefit from the 'Randomer', and that randomer becomes a regular.


    QUOTE]

    + 1

    I would happily pay in on a friday night somewhere if I knew that there was going to be a good standard of bands playing. I have been round the Dublin scene for a number of years now both as a spectator and a musician and even the thought of going to certain venues now makes me want to stay at home and not bother.


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    #16
    Savman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    You're better off getting out of the City for that tbh. The Temple Bar generation just put on the same old crap for American tourists and whatnot, that's their lifeblood at the end of the day I guess.


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    #17
    Des Claypool
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Des Claypool


    i've been playin gig's around dublin with plenty of bands! i've never had a problem playin for free, after all a rehersal room will cost you around €70!!!! so your already saving! my current band use free gig's as free practice:p as for paying gig's if your willing to do your own ground work it's easy to get paid. not an awful lot alright, but once you manage gathering a fan base, the diy gigs can make ya plenty :D


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    #18
    stevood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭stevood


    Des Claypool wrote: »
    as for paying gig's if your willing to do your own ground work it's easy to get paid. not an awful lot alright, but once you manage gathering a fan base, the diy gigs can make ya plenty :D

    Agree, we booked a gig in radio city in jan and turned a €600 profit from it. Lots of hard work promoting, practicing and put on a great show. Did a pre sale ticket for a €5 and a door for €8. Got the numbers and well worth it.

    If you want to get paid, do it yourself!!!


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