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Drink driving & unlicensed driving on private land

  • 19-11-2008 6:23pm
    #1
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭


    Like some of ye, back in the day I learned to drive on private roads and driving jeeps in fields.

    And it was the done thing for a few lads to mess around with old cars in fields, maybe pulling handbrake turns around some obstacle like a round bale and see how close you could do it.
    And drink might be taken too. :o

    Looking back on this, could the gardai charge us with dangerous driving or drink driving on private land?
    Or if I owned land, could I rally a car around it to my hearts content?

    I did a search but it's not clear. Sorry if it's a daft question. For sure there are many unlicenced, uninsured people driving on private land so it's a relevant question.
    I realise you don't need motor tax for private land but I suppose you need a licence and insurance for a possible accident


Comments

  • #2
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Provided that the land is not open to the general public, then it's fine. Private land which is normally open to the general public (such as supermarkets or schools) is still covered by the road traffic acts. Private land is not.

    I imagine if someone died, the driver could be charged with manslaughter or something.


  • #3
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    seamus wrote: »
    I imagine if someone died, the driver could be charged with manslaughter or something.

    Or reckless endangerment even if someone doesn't die.


  • #4
    servicecharge
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭servicecharge


    It has to be a public place for you to get caught. But private land isn't enough, access to the public needs to be barred. A gate would be sufficient.


  • #5
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    micmclo wrote: »
    Looking back on this, could the gardai charge us with dangerous driving or drink driving on private land?
    Or if I owned land, could I rally a car around it to my hearts content?

    As long as it's not a public place as defined:

    RTA-1961:
    "public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

    you can do what you want.


  • #6
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    There may be secondary offences like causing noise pollution or criminal damage (yes, its an offence to damage your own property).


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  • #7
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Victor wrote: »
    There may be secondary offences like causing noise pollution or criminal damage (yes, its an offence to damage your own property).

    Have to disagree with you there. It's only a criminal offence if you damage your own property for fraud (i.e. insurance scam) or in a way that could injure someone. However, if you damage your own property in a way that could injure someone you are more likely to be charged with endangerment, assault or (in fatal cases) manslaughter.

    Consent to the damaging of the property is a lawful excuse.

    (1) A person who without lawful excuse damages any property belonging to another intending to damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be damaged shall be guilty of an offence.

    (2) A person who without lawful excuse damages any property, whether belonging to himself or another—

    ( a ) intending to damage any property or being reckless as to whether any property would be damaged, and

    ( b ) intending by the damage to endanger the life of another or being reckless as to whether the life of another would be thereby endangered,

    shall be guilty of an offence.

    (3) A person who damages any property, whether belonging to himself or another, with intent to defraud shall be guilty of an offence.


  • #8
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,738 ✭✭✭Naos


    Sorry for bringing up an old thread but it's relevant!

    A friend and I were discussing drink driving on private land and the legality of it.

    Section 49(1) Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
    A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

    Section 50 Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
    (1) In this section "unfit to drive" means under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of a mechanically propelled vehicle.

    (2) A person who, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle which is in a public, place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive the vehicle, is unfit to drive the vehicle shall be guilty of an offence.

    Section 39(2) Road Traffic Act 1994:
    A member of the Garda Síochána may for the purpose of arresting a person under section 49 (8) or 50 (10) of the Principal Act, enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not including a dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him to be.

    Sections 49(8) and 50(10) are the powers of arrest available to Gardaí for the offences listed in sections 49 & 50 respectively.

    Based off the above, he believes it is illegal to drink & drive on private ground. Now we are assuming said private ground is closed off to the public.

    Can I get a definitive for this? Been looking through the Road Act but unable to find anything as of yet!

    Many thanks


  • #9
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The key is "a public place". It is only an offence if the person is driving in a public place.

    The road traffic act defines a public place as:
    “public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

    If you are on private land to which the general public do not have permission or a right to enter, then it is perfectly legal to drive while drunk/stoned/whatever.

    Interestingly if you own a piece of land which people may walk onto but may not drive into, it is also perfectly legal to be twisted and drive on your land.


  • #10
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    Naos wrote: »
    Sorry for bringing up an old thread but it's relevant!

    A friend and I were discussing drink driving on private land and the legality of it.

    Section 49(1) Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
    A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle.

    Section 50 Road Traffic Act 1961-2006:
    (1) In this section "unfit to drive" means under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of a mechanically propelled vehicle.

    (2) A person who, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle which is in a public, place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive the vehicle, is unfit to drive the vehicle shall be guilty of an offence.

    Section 39(2) Road Traffic Act 1994:
    A member of the Garda Síochána may for the purpose of arresting a person under section 49 (8) or 50 (10) of the Principal Act, enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not including a dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him to be.

    Sections 49(8) and 50(10) are the powers of arrest available to Gardaí for the offences listed in sections 49 & 50 respectively.

    Based off the above, he believes it is illegal to drink & drive on private ground. Now we are assuming said private ground is closed off to the public.

    Can I get a definitive for this? Been looking through the Road Act but unable to find anything as of yet!

    Many thanks


    your friend should go to Specsavers.


  • #11
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Steve wrote: »
    As long as it's not a public place as defined:

    RTA-1961:
    "public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

    you can do what you want.

    Public place was amended by 1994 Act,


    “‘public place’ means—

    (a) any public road, and

    (b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

    This amendment was brought in after a cases decided that grafton street was not a public place under the original definition.


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  • #12
    Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Thanks for the correction there ResearchWill, such is the minefield of Irish law :)


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