This is a Real Officer compared to the Muppets of Officers we have here.

bunny shooter · 02-12-2007 07:31PM

Flying wrote: »

If you read his posts he does actually hang around vagrants ! and tis a troll !

Vagrants are people, just like you and I and always remember "there but for the grace of God......", You've troll tendacies yourself at times.

Flying · 02-12-2007 08:17PM

bunny shooter wrote: »

Vagrants are people, just like you and I and always remember "there but for the grace of God......", You've troll tendacies yourself at times.

Aw Bunny you got a heart, only a few weeks ago you wanted to stomp all those poor privates as you were a bad ass cpl, anyhow swifting moving on

rednik · 02-12-2007 08:25PM

In the late eighties I served in Iraq. Every evening a team debriefing was held and from a multinational force of 22 countries the Irish Officers always took the lead and showed their true professionalism,intelligence and ability to carry out all tasks given. Most of the other nationalities could not give a proper debriefing. On all patrols carried out it was always the Irish Officer who looked after planning. This has come from the experience gained on 40 years of UN experience.
From my experience overseas service brought out the best and the worst in the Irish Officer.

Flying · 02-12-2007 08:32PM

rednik wrote: »

In the late eighties I served in Iraq. Every evening a team debriefing was held and from a multinational force of 22 countries the Irish Officers always took the lead and showed their true professionalism,intelligence and ability to carry out all tasks given. Most of the other nationalities could not give a proper debriefing. On all patrols carried out it was always the Irish Officer who looked after planning. This has come from the experience gained on 40 years of UN experience.
From my experience overseas service brought out the best and the worst in the Irish Officer.

Most of the 40 years of UN experience was not front line and was admin and observer roles, again they can talk the talk but when it comes to front line soldiering as I have seen in my time in the army, they are nowhere to be seen apart from the very very few.

Also I assume with you were a PA ?

purple'n'gold · 02-12-2007 09:08PM

My knowledge of matters military is not very comprehensive, so bear with me. But I do know this much. The Irish defence forces have never fought a war. On a few scattered occasions small units did come under attack when on UN duty. But this would not have been large scale military action, where front line military decisions involving a lot of troops would have to be taken that would influence the outcome of a serious engagement. (This would be real soldiering, leading men under fire). So we don’t really have any benchmarks to go by. From what I have gathered on this thread and others like it is that our officers tend to be like military civil servants.

Flying · 02-12-2007 09:13PM

purplengold wrote: »

My knowledge of matters military is not very comprehensive, so bear with me. But I do know this much. The Irish defence forces have never fought a war. On a few scattered occasions small units did come under attack when on UN duty. But this would not have been large scale military action, where front line military decisions involving a lot of troops would have to be taken that would influence the outcome of a serious engagement. (This would be real soldiering, leading men under fire). So we don’t really have any benchmarks to go by. From what I have gathered on this thread and others like it is that our officers tend to be like military civil servants.

Well the Irish Army have been present for almost every major action in lebanon.

They have several "battles" in the Congo, Also had several incidents regarding rioting in Kosvo and Incidents in Liberia, I agree to a degree what you are saying but an Officer should lead by example and not from the rear or a safe area. we are a defence force here but the same Military principle should apply to any army regardless of size.

purple'n'gold · 02-12-2007 09:23PM

Flying wrote: »

Well the Irish Army have been present for almost every major action in lebanon.

They have several "battles" in the Congo, Also had several incidents regarding rioting in Kosvo and Incidents in Liberia, I agree to a degree what you are saying but an Officer should lead by example and not from the rear or a safe area. we are a defence force here but the same Military principle should apply to any army regardless of size.

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

Flying · 02-12-2007 09:32PM

purplengold wrote: »

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

Well Jadotsville, Niemba,The Battle for the Tunnel (Exactly where in the Congo I am not sure), The Battle of Op' Ras (1979,45 BN UNIFIL), The Battle of A'Tiri (Spelling) are a few, They are no Goose Greens but still intense enough, the Battle of Op'Ras up to 200,000 rounds was recorded, How I know this my father was one of several men who held out with only FN's and no support for over 24 hours and again the windy officers were nice and tucked in back in Naquora making idiotic (untrained decisions) that did not have any practicality on the ground at the time, One Cpl and several privates held there ground against the Christians. Also for that day "Illegal" DSM's were given out and even one to an officer that was not even present..

eroo · 02-12-2007 11:53PM

purplengold wrote: »

Again you will have to bear with me; my knowledge of these matters is sketchy. Ok, maybe the Irish army was present for almost every major action in Lebanon. But did they actually take part in that action? I would also be slow to describe the actions that took place in the Congo as major battles (albeit no fun and games for the chaps involved) and I wouldn’t describe a riot as a battle. Our army was kept primarily for the internal defence of the state, it has done an admirable job doing just that, but I repeat, they have no experience of fighting an actual war.

The DF are renowned worldwide for their peacekeeping capabilities.Just because we weren't involved in large scale invasions or battles doesn't mean that the DF can't stand toe-to-toe with the best.Their track record is brilliant and without good leadership,said track record would not exist.Sure there are **** officers but you can't paint them all w/ the same brush!There are some very capable officers in the DF!

purple'n'gold · 03-12-2007 01:30PM

Flying wrote: »

Well Jadotsville, Niemba,The Battle for the Tunnel (Exactly where in the Congo I am not sure), The Battle of Op' Ras (1979,45 BN UNIFIL), The Battle of A'Tiri (Spelling) are a few, They are no Goose Greens but still intense enough, the Battle of Op'Ras up to 200,000 rounds was recorded, How I know this my father was one of several men who held out with only FN's and no support for over 24 hours and again the windy officers were nice and tucked in back in Naquora making idiotic (untrained decisions) that did not have any practicality on the ground at the time, One Cpl and several privates held there ground against the Christians. Also for that day "Illegal" DSM's were given out and even one to an officer that was not even present..

I have the greatest admiration for the men who fought in the Congo. I know one chap very well who was there in the early 1960’s. He once told me that they (the Irish troops)
Were very uncomfortable with their heavy uniforms while troops from other countries
Had proper clothing and equipment. And of course, the courage under fire of the ordinary
Irish soldier was and will never be in question, they never faltered when questions were asked of them.

Flying · 03-12-2007 02:49PM

eroo wrote: »

The DF are renowned worldwide for their peacekeeping capabilities.Just because we weren't involved in large scale invasions or battles doesn't mean that the DF can't stand toe-to-toe with the best.Their track record is brilliant and without good leadership,said track record would not exist.Sure there are **** officers but you can't paint them all w/ the same brush!There are some very capable officers in the DF!

I agree the DF are exceptionally good peacekeepers and (maybe I am bias) but the NCO's and Privates are the ones who gained that reputation, the hearts of minds of villages in Southern Lebanon was won by guys from the hardests parts of Dublin,Cork,Limerick and the North, although there are a few good officiers they are few are far between.

purple'n'gold · 03-12-2007 05:34PM

If this thread is about the comparisons between Irish army officers and officers from armies that have actually fought a war, then it all boils down to tradition. We don’t have any tradition, battle honours etc. the only tradition our officer corps have is UN peace keeping. So, the jury is out on our officer corps until they actually fight alongside, direct and lead troops in a sizable military conflict. I am not discussing the troops, only the officer corps.

cushtac · 03-12-2007 05:50PM

purplengold wrote: »

then it all boils down to tradition.

Bollox, it comes down to ability, will and training. Look at Israel, it had no great military tradition to draw on, yet the attitude and ability of it's soldiers and officers contributed to it's military success.

purple'n'gold · 03-12-2007 05:56PM

cushtac wrote: »

Bollox, it comes down to ability, will and training. Look at Israel, it had no great military tradition to draw on, yet the attitude and ability of it's soldiers and officers contributed to it's military success.

And of course knowing that they can never loose, because big brother (USA) is behind them 100% financially and militarily. You best go look for a better comparison.

cushtac · 03-12-2007 09:50PM

purplengold wrote: »

And of course knowing that they can never loose, because big brother (USA) is behind them 100% financially and militarily. You best go look for a better comparison.

America wasn't backing Israel in 1947 when they first beat their neighbours and didn't supply them during the Six Day War when they beat them again. Moreover, it wasn't US troops that did the fighting - so whatever way you look at it the Israelis are responsible for their own success.

But if you want another example look at the Irish War of Independence, most of the successful IRA commanders had no formal officer training. Another example would be Vo Nguyen Giap, the North Vietnamese general, who left school at 15.

Ability & will, followed by training, are what matter, not how old the regiment is or whether or not your granda died at The Somme.

purple'n'gold · 03-12-2007 10:32PM

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them. The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics. And of course, the likes of Richard Mulcahy and Sean McKeon were natural guerrilla leaders. The Vietnamese won their conflict at tremendous loss to the Vietnamese people, but they were supplied throughout their war with material and aid from all over the communist world. I take your point about the brilliance of Vo Nguyen Giap.
I will say no more on this subject. The thread is supposed to be about Irish army officers vis a vis other army officers and I am digressing.

cushtac · 03-12-2007 10:59PM

purplengold wrote: »

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them.

Israel was beaten? The fact that Israel still exists is proof this didn't happen. America did indeed deliver equipment to the Isrealis, just as the Soviets delivered equipment to the Arabs. Israel used their equipment better and managed to beat the Arabs, look at the Chinese Farm engagement and the taking of the Golan Heights. And the 'big guy' put an arms embargo on Israel during the Six-Day War, that's hardly looking after them.

purplengold wrote: »

The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics.

His ruthless guerrilla tactics? Looks like you've bought into the Tim Pat Coogan/movie version of Collins. He never developed the tactics, nor did he lead anyone in the field - that was done by the likes of Kevin Barry and Liam Lynch. Richard Mulcahy was never a 'natural guerrilla leader' either, he was Chief of Staff during the War of Independence.

Dub13 · 03-12-2007 11:21PM

Can we stay on topic please.

Thanks

Flying · 04-12-2007 01:15PM

purplengold wrote: »

Israel was beaten in 1973 when the Americans came to their aid with massive amounts of material. And in every war and military action they have fought since 1948 they know that no matter what they cannot loose. The big guy is looking after them. The Irish war of independence was won mostly by the brilliance of Michael Collins, his intelligence service and his ruthless guerrilla tactics. And of course, the likes of Richard Mulcahy and Sean McKeon were natural guerrilla leaders. The Vietnamese won their conflict at tremendous loss to the Vietnamese people, but they were supplied throughout their war with material and aid from all over the communist world. I take your point about the brilliance of Vo Nguyen Giap.
I will say no more on this subject. The thread is supposed to be about Irish army officers vis a vis other army officers and I am digressing.

Just an off topic point Israel was never beaten, even last year was not a defeat, I would think they are one of the best (peoples) army on the planet, they solider and nothing else like cermonial crap.

I have 3 Cousins in the Golani, who are Irish/Israeli and I have dealt with the IDF in Lebanon and to me are one hell of a professional army and the US need them more than they need the US...

I dont disagree about military aid, but also look at mil aid to Saudi etc

McArmalite · 05-12-2007 06:38PM

Flying wrote: »

Just an off topic point Israel was never beaten, even last year was not a defeat, I would think they are one of the best (peoples) army on the planet, they solider and nothing else like cermonial crap.

I have 3 Cousins in the Golani, who are Irish/Israeli and I have dealt with the IDF in Lebanon and to me are one hell of a professional army and the US need them more than they need the US...

I dont disagree about military aid, but also look at mil aid to Saudi etc

If isreal went to war with Ireland - which side would you be on ?

Fratton Fred · 05-12-2007 06:54PM

McArmalite wrote: »

If isreal went to war with Ireland - which side would you be on ?

for the whole three days it would last?

Hagar · 05-12-2007 07:00PM

Back on topic lads if you please.
The Walter Mitty Forum for fictitious wars is that way =>. It would be a good thread though.
Mc Armalite can't answer any questions just now.
He is indisposed for a week.

This is a Real Officer compared to the Muppets of Officers we have here.

Comments