Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cycle lanes in Phoenix Park

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Ghost Rider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭Ghost Rider


    I don't understand this analogy. What's "inconvenient or dangerous" about the pedestrian paths in the Phoenix Park?
    skidpatches wrote: »
    another case of might thinking it's right, and bullying the lesser road user.

    while we cyclists get all self righteous about our rights and complain about motorist intimidating and bullying cyclists, pedestrians have to put up with this attitude from us.

    next time you're riding on the road because you (rightly) think that the cycle path is inconvenient or dangerous, imagine the pr1ck in the SUV using your words but replacing "cycle" with "drive".


  • Options
    #63
    unionman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭unionman


    This thread kicked off the day after I had cycled, or attempted to cycle, the full length of the park down from the Castleknock gate to the Zoo entrance and back up again. A lot of loud 'Excuse Me''s and 'Coming Through!'s required to alert pedestrians of my presence, with only one person seeming to take exception with a return 'Excuse Me' full of moral indignation. He and his companion had made a determined effort not to get out of my way. Anyway, I realised my experience was pretty common when I saw this thread and the number of responses on it.

    Ever since, I have been trying to think of appropriate solutions that might satisfy the cyclists need for a clear run on the straight, and the pedestrians need (women especially) to be able to walk in relative safety, as the existing pedestrian path is secluded when it gets dark. I know this doesn't cover every user - I think the kids on the path deserve a little patience, while there must at least be some walkers who don't realise they are on a cycle path. Nothing can legislate or comensate for an unrepenting ignoramus, but let's assume for now that they are thin on the ground.

    I was fortunate enough to be in New York at the weekend, and took a walk out over the magnificent Brooklyn Bridge (highly recommended). The boardwalk on the bridge, which runs above the traffic, is about 8 or 9 feet wide, and is divided by a painted white line through the middle. The cycle path is on the left hand side, Brooklyn bound,and both sides are marked appropriately with the usual symbols. Now, bar the odd drifting jogger getting around the peds, nobody went over the line. Of course, tourists tend to observe local convention, and there is probably a greater sense of civic observance on the part of the locals than one is used to in Dublin, but it got me thinking.

    If the Park cycle path were widened to double it's current width, with a slightly ridged dividing line through the middle, and more frequent painted ped / cyclist symbols on the ground, and a 'Caution, Cycle Path, pedestrians keep to the right' sign at the beginning of each section of the path, we might just manage to create a workable solution.

    It would take resources from the OPW, a couple of months work (and disruption), and a bit of promotional & educational work on the part of the OPW and Dublin and Fingal Councils. But it can be done.

    I really don't think we can achieve a solution by asserting one group of park users rights and entitlements over another. Rather, I think the solution lies in the application of an intelligent design, as with all urban planning. We don't have a great history of it Dublin, but it doesn't mean we should stop trying.

    OK, maybe I haven't cracked it here, but I welcome your thoughts.


  • Options
    #64
    daymobrew
    Registered Users Posts: 6,499 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    unionman wrote: »
    If the Park cycle path were widened to double it's current width, with a slightly ridged dividing line through the middle, and more frequent painted ped / cyclist symbols on the ground, and a 'Caution, Cycle Path, pedestrians keep to the right' sign at the beginning of each section of the path, we might just manage to create a workable solution.
    We have these shared paths in other areas of the city. I hate them because pedestrians can't manage to keep on their side of the line. Often, lone pedestrians simply walk on the cycle half, even with its frequent bicycle symbols.
    unionman wrote: »
    It would take resources from the OPW, a couple of months work (and disruption), and a bit of promotional & educational work on the part of the OPW and Dublin and Fingal Councils. But it can be done.
    Check out the OPW plans for the main road. It moves the cycle path onto the road from the polo grounds to Parkgate Street.
    The OPW maintains the Phoenix Park - Dublin City and Fingal County Council don't come into it.


  • Options
    #65
    Membrane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Membrane


    unionman wrote: »
    If the Park cycle path were widened to double it's current width, with a slightly ridged dividing line through the middle, and more frequent painted ped / cyclist symbols on the ground, and a 'Caution, Cycle Path, pedestrians keep to the right' sign at the beginning of each section of the path, we might just manage to create a workable solution.

    On current such shared facilities the segregation isn't working well (e.g. the Clontarf to Sutton cycle path), this applies both to peds walking on the cycle section and cyclists cycling on the ped section. I think that your proposed signing could contribute to a change in behaviour, but I fear that alone it won't be enough.
    I really don't think we can achieve a solution by asserting one group of park users rights and entitlements over another. Rather, I think the solution lies in the application of an intelligent design, as with all urban planning. We don't have a great history of it Dublin, but it doesn't mean we should stop trying.

    I agree. If possible I support designing facilities to suit people's natural behaviour, rather than trying to get people to behave in a manner that suits the design of the facility. Regarding the cycle paths in the Phoenix Park I think it needs to be more clear why peds choose to use the cycle lane instead of the pedestrian path. Your suggestion that it can get too dark for people to feel safe could well be part of the reason, but I'm not sure if that is the only reason for people who deliberately choose it over the ped path.


  • Options
    #66
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    I think a couple of signs saying

    "cycle path, €1000 fine for non cycle use of lane"

    would work wonders.

    or

    "It is legal for a cyclist to punch you in the nose if you walk on on cycle track"


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    clown bag wrote: »
    "It is legal for a cyclist to punch you in the nose if you walk on on cycle track"

    that's the spirit. examples must be made.

    personally i think the lack of adequate signage might be the problem. if we killed a few joggers and hung their mutilated carcasses from the trees beside the cycle-lane i think we'd see some results. ...well, works with pigeons anyway.


  • Options
    #68
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,380 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    clown bag wrote: »
    "cycle path, €1000 fine for non cycle use of lane"

    Yes, I was suggesting the same thing in another thread. And a similar sign on the pedestrian side of course. There needs to be more notice of what NOT to do. An ignorant person might see the bike symbol and think it is a shared lane or something, a symbol with a person walking with a dirty big red X through it is more of a signal not to walk there. A sign of a bike can be argued that they were not told not to walk there.

    My other idea was a sign saying "105 pedestrians injured while walking on cycle lanes since Jan 1 2007 - keep to the correct lane for your own safety".

    I have never been on the phoneix park track, is it really much safer to walk on the wrong side like some suggest? if so why do people not ask for sides to be switched if that is the main problem.


  • Options
    #69
    SerialComplaint
    Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    daymobrew wrote: »
    We have these shared paths in other areas of the city. I hate them because pedestrians can't manage to keep on their side of the line. Often, lone pedestrians simply walk on the cycle half, even with its frequent bicycle symbols.
    The other problem with these shared paths is the dog-walkers, who may well keep to the pedestrian side of the path but seem quite happy to allow Rover and his lead to drift all over the cycle path.

    Groups of pedestrians are another problem. I've twice encountered the same group of 3 Japanese (I think) girls on the same stretch of shared path - one of the girls might be on the pedestrian bit, with the other 2 blocking both lanes of the cycle lane.


  • Options
    #70
    unionman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭unionman


    Membrane wrote: »
    On current such shared facilities the segregation isn't working well (e.g. the Clontarf to Sutton cycle path), this applies both to peds walking on the cycle section and cyclists cycling on the ped section. I think that your proposed signing could contribute to a change in behaviour, but I fear that alone it won't be enough. I agree. If possible I support designing facilities to suit people's natural behaviour, rather than trying to get people to behave in a manner that suits the design of the facility. Regarding the cycle paths in the Phoenix Park I think it needs to be more clear why peds choose to use the cycle lane instead of the pedestrian path. Your suggestion that it can get too dark for people to feel safe could well be part of the reason, but I'm not sure if that is the only reason for people who deliberately choose it over the ped path.

    Thanks Membrane, I haven't cycled out that path, it would appear that a much bigger sea change in behaviour is needed. Re: Peds use of cycle path - agreed, that is just one reason cited by users, but it doesn't account for daytime users, groups, dog walkers etc etc.


  • Options
    #71
    unionman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭unionman


    daymobrew wrote: »
    We have these shared paths in other areas of the city. I hate them because pedestrians can't manage to keep on their side of the line. Often, lone pedestrians simply walk on the cycle half, even with its frequent bicycle symbols.
    Check out the OPW plans for the main road. It moves the cycle path onto the road from the polo grounds to Parkgate Street.
    The OPW maintains the Phoenix Park - Dublin City and Fingal County Council don't come into it.

    Thanks daymobrew. Interesting plan, and certanly more favourable from a cyclists perspective. I take your point of information regarding OPW and the park. Thinking out loud, I was wondering if the Councils could get involved / contribute seeing as how DCC have a policy to boost cycle commuter traffic up to (I think) 10% by 2009, and Chesterfield avenue is a primary route for Castleknock / Blanchardstown.

    Great to see them doing something to address the motorist commuter trend for turning the city end of the park into a free car park. Situation has become ridiculous in the last two years.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    Demonique
    Registered Users Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Demonique


    unionman wrote: »
    A lot of loud 'Excuse Me''s and 'Coming Through!'s required to alert pedestrians of my presence, with only one person seeming to take exception with a return 'Excuse Me' full of moral indignation. He and his companion had made a determined effort not to get out of my way.

    I would have told him 'this is clearly marked as a cycle path, not an ignorant ignoramus path'


  • Options
    #73
    Civilian_Target
    Registered Users Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Civilian_Target


    Unless you have a critical mass of cyclists using those paths, this will always happen. The reason similar paths work in London or Brooklyn is because there's a cyclists going down it at least every 20 or 30 seconds...

    A good bell works wonders in these situations, maybe an airhorn too :D


  • Options
    #74
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,578 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    Civilian_Target wrote: »
    Unless you have a critical mass of cyclists using those paths, this will always happen. The reason similar paths work in London or Brooklyn is because there's a cyclists going down it at least every 20 or 30 seconds...

    A good bell works wonders in these situations, maybe an airhorn too :D

    agreed, I think the problem is that is large areas of Dublin you seldom see a cyclist on the cycle paths. Asking everyone to stay off them when their is never a cyclist on them is a bit rich imo.

    Although it can be an issue on say the N11 one for me when cycling, on a lot of the other cycle paths out my way you hardly ever have an issue.

    I think the route out to howth is a different story as it is such a popular walking and cycling route.

    I cycle a lot but I also run out around sandyford/stillorgan area, I run about 4 times a week and often on the cyclepaths. I don't think I have ever been overtaken by a cyclist while on the cyclepath in over 2.5 years.


  • Options
    #75
    Membrane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭Membrane


    copacetic wrote: »
    I think the problem is that is large areas of Dublin you seldom see a cyclist on the cycle paths.

    Bit of a chicken and egg thing about that, I for one will shun some cycle paths and choose the road if I see peds on the path like today going through Tallaght with me going at speed. Tallaght chavs (what's the Irish equivalent of a chav?) on the path = me on the road.


  • Options
    #76
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,578 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    Membrane wrote: »
    Bit of a chicken and egg thing about that, I for one will shun some cycle paths and choose the road if I see peds on the path like today going through Tallaght with me going at speed. Tallaght chavs (what's the Irish equivalent of a chav?) on the path = me on the road.

    well agreed but I don't mean the paths are packed with peds and cyclists are forced off them. I mean ones that are pretty much empty of either, out my way on drunmartin link road and sandyford road you very seldom see a cyclist on the cycle path excpet at weekends (or on the road, they are just quiet in general)


  • Options
    #77
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Here's a picture I took yesterday in the park.

    The sign is nice, as is the green-surfaced track, but they're quite different from the signs and markings normally used outside the park. The arhcitects might have thought this to be more pleasing, but it probably adds to confusion.

    The track itself was quite nicely surfaced. I could see problems if it was swapped with the footpath as the light away from the road is probably not so good. It being the marathon day, I couldn't judge if the people walking on the cycle track were spectators or the people that have been complained about in this thread.

    It's quite a nice workout to pedal up from the Parkgate street entrance.


  • Options
    #78
    Manone
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭Manone


    I think thats the nub of the issue with the Phoenix Park cycle lanes. Essentially the footpath is not as open and pleasant to walk on and can be a bit uneven for running on also.

    I'm begining to avoid it altogether as I've been cursed at for telling people to use the footpath (I ask politely, I might add) and I've been knocked off by a guy who swung his arm without seeing me coming.

    I think you've less chance of hardship using the road than the cyclelane and I know a few of you will think that's giving in, but the alternative is to start clipping people as I believe the Germans are apt to do. The layout of the roundabouts and getting on and off the cyclelanes are nearly more dangerous anyway.

    Can't blame the OPW for trying though. At least they got the surface right compared to most other lanes around Dublin.


  • Options
    #79
    unionman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭unionman


    Manone wrote: »
    I think you've less chance of hardship using the road than the cyclelane

    I guarantee you that if you opt to use the road on Chesterfield avenue, you will have to contend with motorists telling yuou to 'use the f***ing cycle lane.' That's what happened to me anyway. You can't win.
    :mad:


  • Options
    #80
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,380 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Here's a picture I took yesterday in the park.

    The sign is nice,
    It has no value law wise. It is the incorrect signage, on top of that there is no such thing as a "cycle-lane" in Irish law, cycletracks & cycleways, and there are legal definitions of what the signs should be.


  • Options
    #81
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    rubadub wrote: »
    It has no value law wise. It is the incorrect signage, on top of that there is no such thing as a "cycle-lane" in Irish law, cycletracks & cycleways, and there are legal definitions of what the signs should be.

    well that's just brilliant.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Separate laws (by-laws) apply inside the park, but so-far, nobody has found any covering the use or mis-use of cycle tracks installed by the park authorities. The catch-all is that the by-laws require everyone using the park to be considerate towards others & this could mean that pedestrians who don't use the path provided for them might be judged 'inconsiderate'.


  • Options
    #83
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,380 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    niceonetom wrote: »
    well that's just brilliant.
    I dont know if that is a comment about me (maybe appearing pedantic or something), or about the designers being possibly ignorant of the law.

    But the fact is many apparent cycletracks (outside the parks), are actually footpaths due to incorrect signage. And therefore it is illegal to cycle on them and if you did have an accident with a pedestrian, you would certainly be in the wrong.

    I didnt know there were separate by-laws in the parks, even if it was not legal people should have common sense and obey the "guides".


  • Options
    #84
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    rubadub wrote: »
    I dont know if that is a comment about me (maybe appearing pedantic or something)...

    not you at all rubadub, sorry for any ambiguity. I'm just exasperated at the legal situation in the park, and to find out that i, as a cyclist, might have no legal right to cycle in the cycle-lanes is, well, irksome.


  • Options
    #85
    Red Devil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Red Devil


    Ended up parking my bike in a joggers arse this evening.

    In their infinite wisdom the two guys decided to go out from a run in black tracksuits and hats. Never saw them until the last minute and bell and shouting was too late.

    There was no sign of movement, so I swerved for the grass and then they decided this might be a good idea too. Buried the bike into the guy after slamming on the breaks and felt like I went out over his shoulder, but luckily deposited myself firmly into the grass track.

    In fairness they helped me up and there was apologies all round , but I let a f*** out of me and they ran off, last I heard was " It must be a cycle track too" and "We should have some reflective gear"

    Far from a minor irritant, but not sure what can be done. In fairness to joggers and walkers in winter it is pitch black on the walking path


  • Options
    #86
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    i sympathise, i've had many very close calls like this when it gets dark.
    Red Devil wrote: »
    In fairness they helped me up and there was apologies all round , but I let a f*** out of me and they ran off, last I heard was " It must be a cycle track too" and "We should have some reflective gear"

    wierdly, men usually respond like this whereas female joggers immediately start hurling abuse at me, not sure why. i fight fire with fire though.
    Red Devil wrote: »
    ...not sure what can be done. In fairness to joggers and walkers in winter it is pitch black on the walking path

    at the risk of sounding obvious: lighting? seriously the OPW should really rethink the lighting along the main road in the park. the footpath is unusable after 7pm now, given the (totally legitimate) safety concerns that many joggers (especially women) have. the gas lamps are very picturesque but the world switched to electricity for good reasons.


  • Options
    #87
    skidpatches
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭skidpatches


    niceonetom wrote: »
    at the risk of sounding obvious: lighting? seriously the OPW should really rethink the lighting along the main road in the park. the footpath is unusable after 7pm now, given the (totally legitimate) safety concerns that many joggers (especially women) have. the gas lamps are very picturesque but the world switched to electricity for good reasons.
    ha! try putting lights on the bike first before lighting up the whole park


  • Options
    #88
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    skidpatches wrote: »
    ha! try putting lights on the bike first before lighting up the whole park

    i have lights on my bike, smart arse. good ones. but not good enough to guarantee spotting black clad joggers. some of them are like bloody ninjas.

    my main point has nothing to do with cyclists: the footpath is too dark to be used by pedestrians. we in the cycle lane are experiencing a knock-on effect from their problem.


  • Options
    #89
    Ghost Rider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭Ghost Rider


    It's not just the lack of lighting that's making them do it. Even if you go up there of a Saturday or Sunday afternoon you'll still find a shed-load of walkers/joggers on the cycle path.
    niceonetom wrote: »
    my main point has nothing to do with cyclists: the footpath is too dark to be used by pedestrians. we in the cycle lane are experiencing a knock-on effect from their problem.


  • Options
    #90
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    Ghost Rider wrote: »
    It's not just the lack of lighting that's making them do it. Even if you go up there of a Saturday or Sunday afternoon you'll still find a shed-load of walkers/joggers on the cycle path.

    i know. i know. i was only talking about Red Devil's post and my own similar experiences, i.e. what happens when it's dark. they're in the lane during daylight hours too, yes, but at night i think they have a genuine grievance about the condition of their own appointed lane (the darkness). it's a shame that we are affected by their problem but it is understandable. during daylight hours there is no excuse though.

    i don't want to be seen as an apologist for peds though. don't get me wrong, if i had my way i'd summarily execute pedestrians with the temerity to walk in cycle lanes. i'd have bike thieves publicly flayed alive. motorists would live in constant fear of my displeasure.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Ghost Rider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭Ghost Rider


    Dude, that's like something the Nazis or Hitler would say.
    niceonetom wrote: »
    i'd have bike thieves publicly flayed alive. motorists would live in constant fear of my displeasure.


Advertisement