I have a new toy, and I am asking for some help. (film)

deaddonkey · 19-07-2007 11:04pm #1

i wanted to try film, cos sometimes digital everything and a thousand shots a second without thinking is kinda cheating, and being the cartier bresson fanboy that i am, i wanted a rangefinder.

So i bought an olympus 35 sp 35mm rangefinder, cos they get great reviews, f/1.7 42mm lens, and i ****ing love this thing. i love the mechanical feel of it, i love the rangefinder focusing, i love the light metering in manual mode and i love the thrill of getting close to people and taking a shot before they've noticed. 70 euros delivered to the door which ain't too shabby.

i'm nearly through my first roll on it, and i bought a developing tank and developer and i'm getting some fixer tomorrow.

so here's my request for help: do i need anything apart from running water, dev. tank, developer and fixer (i find different info on every site i read.)

and secondly, is there anyone out there who would be willing to help me through the process this weekend for a couple of hours, cos i've taken some shots that i feel are going to be ok, and don't want to mess it up. i can black out my bedroom or travel somewhere else with my kit if there is someone willing, i'd appreciate it muchly anyway cos this is new territory for me. i'll flip someone a 20 for their time...

Mags says: "stressed out? try a film camera"

sineadw · 19-07-2007 11:08pm

Oooo i want one, i really doooo..

Sorry - no help on the dev side of things. I'm hoping to get my first shot of it soon

magicbastarder · 19-07-2007 11:18pm

beware the battery issue - that would probably have been built to take mercury batteries, 1.35v, and now probably has a 1.5v battery, which will throw the meter somewhat.

ThOnda · 19-07-2007 11:20pm

You need thermometer and watches or alarm clock. And some abwsolutely dark place (toilet) to feed the film into the tank.
I had home made products, so I can't help you. Not to mention that I'll be busy and ill doring the weekend :-)

deaddonkey · 19-07-2007 11:22pm

magicbastarder wrote:

beware the battery issue - that would probably have been built to take mercury batteries, 1.35v, and now probably has a 1.5v battery, which will throw the meter somewhat.

battery tested with multimeter, running at 1.36 volts
i also have a bunch of 1.4 volt air zinc batteries as backup.

DaireQuinlan · 19-07-2007 11:24pm

cool, where did you get it ? Lovely camera.

On the dev side of things, looks like you've got it sorted. Dev tank, developer, fixer, running water ... and somewhere pitch black where you can load the film into the tank. Thats pretty much it. A graduated cylinder might stand you in good stead as well if you can get a hold of one. I used to use a measuring jug from the kitchen tho (that I never put BACK into the kitchen I'd like to add). B&W is very forgiving of error. You might want to invest in some wash-aid as well (I use ilfotol) to prevent drying streaks on the film. I've done without it though, its not essential. Also, a thermometer is good too, most times for B&W dev are given for 20 degrees on the button, but as I said above, B&W development is forgiving of small errors. I always bank on the dozens of small errors I make in dilution, timing, and temperature to sort of balance each other out :-)

I normally do the following when I've developing ...

Grab a couple of jugs of tap-water and one pyrex jug of boiling water and leave them down somewhere to stand for a bit. Nip into my wardrobe and spool the film onto the film-spool and batten down the hatches. Make up the right developer concentration for whatever I'm doing using cold and hot water to get it to 20c. Dunk it into the tank and agitate. Then every minute for however long the dev time is, agitate for 10 seconds.

When thats done, dump out the developer, and rinse the film (I don't use stop). I fill and invert 10 times, re-fill and invert 20 times, re-fill and invert 30 times. Then the fixer goes in. Same deal with agitation. Fixer times aren't essential, its always best to err on the side of caution and over-fix rather than under-fix.

Dump out the fixer and repeat the wash cycle, then a final wash with ilfotol and out comes the film to hang up and dry. I run the shower in the bathroom for about 5 or 10 minutes to get it all steamy and wait for that to subside, this damps any dust. Then I leave the film hanging up to dry in the shower cubicle.

Enjoy !, and post results !

D.

Placebo · 19-07-2007 11:55pm

welcome to real photography.... FILM

deaddonkey · 20-07-2007 12:43am

DaireQuinlan wrote:

cool, where did you get it ? Lovely camera.

On the dev side of things, looks like you've got it sorted. Dev tank, developer, fixer, running water ... and somewhere pitch black where you can load the film into the tank. Thats pretty much it. A graduated cylinder might stand you in good stead as well if you can get a hold of one. I used to use a measuring jug from the kitchen tho (that I never put BACK into the kitchen I'd like to add). B&W is very forgiving of error. You might want to invest in some wash-aid as well (I use ilfotol) to prevent drying streaks on the film. I've done without it though, its not essential. Also, a thermometer is good too, most times for B&W dev are given for 20 degrees on the button, but as I said above, B&W development is forgiving of small errors. I always bank on the dozens of small errors I make in dilution, timing, and temperature to sort of balance each other out :-)

I normally do the following when I've developing ...

Grab a couple of jugs of tap-water and one pyrex jug of boiling water and leave them down somewhere to stand for a bit. Nip into my wardrobe and spool the film onto the film-spool and batten down the hatches. Make up the right developer concentration for whatever I'm doing using cold and hot water to get it to 20c. Dunk it into the tank and agitate. Then every minute for however long the dev time is, agitate for 10 seconds.

When thats done, dump out the developer, and rinse the film (I don't use stop). I fill and invert 10 times, re-fill and invert 20 times, re-fill and invert 30 times. Then the fixer goes in. Same deal with agitation. Fixer times aren't essential, its always best to err on the side of caution and over-fix rather than under-fix.

Dump out the fixer and repeat the wash cycle, then a final wash with ilfotol and out comes the film to hang up and dry. I run the shower in the bathroom for about 5 or 10 minutes to get it all steamy and wait for that to subside, this damps any dust. Then I leave the film hanging up to dry in the shower cubicle.

Enjoy !, and post results !

D.

v. helpful post, thanks a lot

I grabbed it on ebay, buy it now price of 65 dollars i think, there wasn't much information about its condition in the listing so i took a chance and it seems i got lucky. didn't have to pay any taxes on it either.

deaddonkey · 20-07-2007 12:47am

couple other questions, when rinsing after developing, do i need to remove the water from the tank in total darkness aswell, by letting it out the chute of the tank? at what point is the film no longer light sensitive?

and not being rich, how many times can i reuse the developer and fixer if i rebottle them? will using them too many times cause them to not work/give bad results?

DaireQuinlan · 20-07-2007 1:08am

deaddonkey wrote:

couple other questions, when rinsing after developing, do i need to remove the water from the tank in total darkness aswell, by letting it out the chute of the tank? at what point is the film no longer light sensitive?

and not being rich, how many times can i reuse the developer and fixer if i rebottle them? will using them too many times cause them to not work/give bad results?

The dev tank is built in such a way as to let you pour out the liquid without opening it or exposing the contents to light so no worries there. Its okay to expose the film to light only after you've fixed it. I normally re-use my fixer a couple of times if I'm developing a couple of rolls of film a week, otherwise I toss it. I've never re-used developers, depends completely on which developer you got as to whether or not its good for re-use. Ilfosol for example is one-shot. DD-x has instructions for re-use, ie you add 10% to the times for each subsequent film or something similar and it'll last a couple of weeks in a light-tight bottle. You can often dilute the developer a lot more for economy but again, it depends on the developer. Apparently Rodinal is one of the more economical developers, the concentrate lasts for ever, and its typically used at dilutions of up to 1:50 or so.

pete4130 · 20-07-2007 1:31am

You'll need some warm water, temp depending on what film/processor combination your using and how fast you want to process it. (different dilutions and temp varations can produe different results ie using developer at 50/1 rather than 25/1 and developing for twice as long, or reducing/increasing the temp to slow/speed up developing times....but I wouldn't worry about that aspect of things for your first roll.

A thermometer is important too to make sure your temps are right!

The ONLY time its safe to expose your film to light is AFTER you have properly fixed your film in the fixer!!!!!!!

The film is still light sensitive after you have initially developed it with the developer. All the developer does is amplify the latent image by about 1billion times. it does this by removing the silver halide crystals on the film that havne't been exposed to light eg. shadow areas. It removes the silver crystals where there was dark shadows/dark grey's blacks.....which in turn makes that part of your negative lighter or see through.....so when you pass light through it onto photosensestive paper alot of light passes through that particular area of the neg meaning that area of the positive image is darker....if any of that makes sense!?

The fixer acts as a bleach really, nullifying the light sensitivity of the film making it safe to be exposed to light.

You can buy dark bags reasonably cheap. These can be really good as if you have trouble loading the film onto the spool, your not in a confined area, getting hot and stressed in the dark. If you're careful you can even slip your hand out and take a break (not recommended though in case somelight does get in!).

I'd recommend bringing more than 1 spool into the darkroom with you just in case the roll of film doesn't like the first spool and you have difficutly loading it. Chances are that the film will load easily onto the second spool.

Remember when cutting the lead off to make a clean cut without cutting through the sprocket holes of the film, as the jagged edge of a sprocket hole can really make loading the film onto the spool a nightmare...I know its easier said than done in the dark though. You'll obvisouly need a scissors for that too!

I use a scissors to prise open my 35mm rolls to get at the film, or a beer bottle openner works just as well. The scissors technique has a certain knack to doing it.

A clean, dry draft free area with as little dust as possible is the best place to hang your film to dry. I use a showlace strang across the shower rail with some clothes pegs to hang the film and another clothes peg on the end to weight it so the film doesn't curl up and dry onto itself.

If your film dries with water marks on the non-emulsion side (the glossy side) you can carefully use your breath and a clean soft lens cloth to remove them if you feel confident enough. if the film dries with dust, fluff, hairs or water marks on the emulsion side (the matt looking side) then its fine to rewash the negs in warm water and let them dry again. This can be easier after they have been cut into strips of 6. They will be easier to handle and it means you don't have to rewash a whole roll of film too!

As regards for re-using chemicals, I generally only use developer once and once only. Some developers can be re-useda number of times but you have to start adding on extra time for every so many rolls of film they've processed to make up for what developing strength they might have lost. I don't take the risk personally ( I use AGFA Rodinol Special for Fuji Neopan 400 and Kodax TX developer for kodak TX, Tri-X Tmax films and Ilford Delta 400 & 3200).

For fixer I'm a bit more liberal. If I am processing alot over a short period of time I'll reuse fixer without a worry but if I was a month or longer without using it then I'd make some fresh. The 2 times I didn't and thought it would be ok were the 2 times my negs didn't turn out 100%. Maybe it was coincidence but I wasn't going to chance it again.

Once you do a few rolls, you'll get your own routine depending on your set up (everyone's is different depending on what space they have eg bathrooms, wardrobes, darkbags etc....)

Hope this has been some help if not a little long.

Pete.

deaddonkey · 20-07-2007 2:14am

you've all been a great help

thanks muchly

my plan is to develop then scan, and maybe try printing when i've decided which negatives i want, and find access to a darkroom somewhere.
i'm really enjoying shooting film though, it's forcing me to compose and think a lot more than slap happy digital

DaireQuinlan · 20-07-2007 8:26am

deaddonkey wrote:

i'm really enjoying shooting film though, it's forcing me to compose and think a lot more than slap happy digital

jeez, maybe you're better off with film then, I never knew GBH and digital went hand in hand ...

Yeah, as regards loading the film, I've always found it much easier with 35mm to, when rewinding, leave the leader out. Or alternatively get one of those little widgets that you can use the extract the leader from the film and use it. You can also wander into a camera shop and get them to extract the leader from the film for you. Couple of reasons for this ...

you can, in broad daylight so you can see what you're doing, trim the end of the film and just barely get the very start of it onto the reel, only takes another inch or two generally to get it over the bit of the reel that stops it from sliding back out (either little ball-bearings or lttle plastic teeth depending on the reel). Then when your're loading it you can just reel it out of the canister as you go. This also has the advantage that if you screw it up somehow you can just wind it back into the canister in frustration and try again at some other point. I've never felt that scissors and complete darkness went terribly well together...

Some people don't like the above because they maintain that doing this will scratch your film as you're winding it out of the canister. I've never had any problems. In all fairness, its been through that canister slot at least twice anyway, another once isn't going to make any differance..

DaireQuinlan · 20-07-2007 10:36am

Forgot to add, You'll find the following site invaluable:

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html

times/temps/concentrations for almost any combination of film and developer.

Roen · 20-07-2007 10:47am

Is it just me or does no one use stop bath anymore?

pete4130 · 20-07-2007 11:49am

I never used stop bath....running water for 10-15 mins does the job for me....its one less chemical I have to worry about!

minikin · 20-07-2007 11:49am

Dead Donkey

You absolutely need stop bath, otherwise you're contaminating the fixer, makes it less effective and I wouldn't reuse fixer if it's been contaminated.

have you looked into different wash techniques... i have found the 5,10,20 inversion method to be sufficient - easier to maintain all solutions at 20deg and you save lots of water. Don't be tempted to squeegee the film, just use a proper washaid and hang in a dust free environment (don't use a hairdryer etc as this blows dust etc everywhere)

thefizz · 20-07-2007 12:19pm

Water is fine as a stop bath for film but running for 10 to 15 minutes is way OTT.

Roen · 20-07-2007 12:23pm

Phew! I thought I was going a bit mad there.
I'd also echo the necessity to use stop bath. It basically stops the dev process as it's name implies. There's no point in using film and getting all your times and temps correct if the neg is still gaining density from the residual dev left on it during the rinsing.

Then again, you may never notice a difference!

Benster · 20-07-2007 12:29pm

Yeah, was just about to mention the "stop" stage, I thought there was something missing from the initial description. Also, I take it this is monochrome film you're talking about? Colour film (although I've never dev'd my own) I hear is a COMPLETELY different beast...

As for a change-bag, I've only ever used a zipped-up coat in a dark room. Put all the gear you need, as mentioned by Pete above, inside the coat and then put your arms through the sleeves the opposite way, then begin the process of fumbling around while trying to imagine what is happening inside. Might be best if you are VERY careful using scissors to cut the small spool off the end of the roll when you have it all threaded on to the large spool, otherwise you shred your coat (all responsibility is hereby absolved :-)

And enjoy it. Nothing like seeing your images appear when you unroll that film for drying...
B.

deaddonkey · 23-07-2007 6:00pm

negatives are drying

i've gotta find me a scanner for my PC tonight, cos i want to see them properly, and i'm going away tomorrow.
also

price of film

ffs

6.45 for a roll of B&W film

sineadw · 23-07-2007 6:02pm

Check out Gunnes and Camera Exchange for expired film offers. I often get Ilford for 1.50 a roll

Fionn · 23-07-2007 6:09pm

just saw the photograph of the rangefinder and this thought popped into my mind

"a real camera" strange eh?

magicbastarder · 23-07-2007 9:11pm

deaddonkey wrote:

price of film

ffs

6.45 for a roll of B&W film

where?
€2.20 for a roll of 120 neopan 400 in gunns.

deaddonkey · 14-08-2007 2:21am

magicbastarder wrote:

where?
€2.20 for a roll of 120 neopan 400 in gunns.

the shop on talbot street i think, dunno what it's called, but i won't be going back

i was away for a few weeks
here's the keepers from the first roll
i have another roll to develop

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deaddonkey/sets/72157600979672005/detail/

magicbastarder · 15-08-2007 7:31pm

got seven rolls of (120) provia 400 in the fuji place today for €14; bbe june.

Spyral · 16-08-2007 1:30am

make your own stop by a 1 in 10 mix of white vinegar and water. just pour out the dev, bung in the stop jiggle for a bit and after about 30 secs out with than and in with the fix..

gratz on the successes.. I can't scan mine until i get back to uni..

I have a new toy, and I am asking for some help. (film)

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