What is undertaking

ianobrien · 26-09-2006 6:20pm #1

Ladies & gentlemen,

Perhaps you could clear up a confusing point. What exactly is undertaking?

I think that undertaking is when you use the hard shoulder to pass on the left of a car, only.

I am under the impression that, on a dual carrageway, driving in the left lane is not undertaking, as you are supposed to drive in the left lane at all times. If I am wrong on this, does this mean that, at the West link bridge, no car in the left lane can not move unless a car in the right lane moves?

All comments appreciated, as there is a debate at work on this point.

Creamy Goodness · 26-09-2006 6:23pm

undertaking is passing a car on the left hand side of the car that you are passing, regardless if it's in the overtaking lane or the left hand lane of a dual carriage way.

fjon · 26-09-2006 6:27pm

What Cremo said: passing a car on the left.
This is only allowed:
When you are turning left
When the car on the right is turning right
In slow moving traffic

I'm not exactly sure what defines slow moving traffic though! Is 50kph on the M50 considered slow moving traffic?

secret_squirrel · 26-09-2006 6:28pm

It shocks me that anyone could pass their test without knowing the most basic of the rules of the road. No wonder Irish Car Insurance is a rip off.

See

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/good-driving.html#4

However I suggest you and your mates read the whole rules of the road again.

Wishbone Ash · 26-09-2006 6:32pm

"Overtaking on the left" is the correct term but for some reason many here refer to it as 'undertaking' which is something funeral directors do. I have never found the term 'undertaking' used in any driving/motoring manual or in any Road traffic Acts or Statutory Instruments.

Creamy Goodness · 26-09-2006 6:36pm

yeh i pretty much over complicated it there in my first reply, fjon simplified it and made it more understandable.

It shocks me that anyone could pass their test without knowing the most basic of the rules of the road. No wonder Irish Car Insurance is a rip off.

maybe they aren't drivers (i know it's far fetched but you'd never know)

Sandwich · 26-09-2006 7:27pm

But is passing in the left lane really to be observed in EVERY case or is there any leeway in the rules of the road? i.e. if someone is in the outer lane a motorway and doing 80kph (or whatever), all cars behind him must not exceed that speed? Forget about that fact that (s)he shouldnt be in that lane in the first place, they are, so what do you do now? What if they are doing 40kph?

Personally, I pass on the inside every time (checking the lane for space indicating and only is space is available of course), without hesitation. I never tailgate/flash lights/horn although you do see it. Surely its safer just to pass on than have lots of traffic build up behind you.

d4r3n · 26-09-2006 7:35pm

I wouldn't class it as 'overtaking on the left' if the people in the overtaking lane are doing <120 kph on the motorway.

Wishbone Ash · 26-09-2006 7:43pm

Sandwich wrote:

if someone is in the outer lane a motorway and doing 80kph (or whatever), all cars behind him must not exceed that speed?

Yes, that is why it causes so much annoyance and is the subject of many threads. If overtaking on the left was legal, then there would not be a problem (all else being equal).

Idleater · 26-09-2006 7:57pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Yes, that is why it causes so much annoyance and is the subject of many threads. If overtaking on the left was legal, then there would not be a problem (all else being equal).

There is no problem.

Overtaking another vehicle on the left is a manoeuver where you move from one lane to another (to the left) pass a vehicle and then return to the right lane. The whole manoeuver, termed here "undertaking" is very similar to an "overtake" which is the same manoeuver but to the right.

If you are "always" in the left lane and there happen to be vehicles in the right hand lane then it is not classed as overtaking on the left unless you are driving without due care and attention.

L.

Anan1 · 26-09-2006 8:06pm

ianobrien wrote:

I am under the impression that, on a dual carrageway, driving in the left lane is not undertaking, as you are supposed to drive in the left lane at all times.

No, the rule is drive on the left overtake on the right.

ianobrien wrote:

If I am wrong on this, does this mean that, at the West link bridge, no car in the left lane can not move unless a car in the right lane moves?

No, because that's slow moving traffic.

nereid wrote:

If you are "always" in the left lane and there happen to be vehicles in the right hand lane then it is not classed as overtaking on the left unless you are driving without due care and attention.

This is ridiculous. How can overtaking on the left not be overtaking on the left?

If anyone is still unclear on this, might I suggest they read their ROTR. It's all there in black and white and, with respect, it's not rocket science.

secret_squirrel · 26-09-2006 8:08pm

Sandwich wrote:

Personally, I pass on the inside every time (checking the lane for space indicating and only is space is available of course), without hesitation. I never tailgate/flash lights/horn although you do see it. Surely its safer just to pass on than have lots of traffic build up behind you.

Then you are driving in a manner that could get you pulled over. - I know I have been for that very maneouver.

In a lot of countries Undertaking is not allowed and is considered dangerous - because other drivers expect the faster traffic to always been on their right.

This is the case for both Ireland and the UK. Contrast this with the US where undertaking on Freeways is permitted (afaik)

Wishbone Ash · 26-09-2006 8:22pm

From "How to be an Advanced Driver"

(Institute of Advanced Motorists 2004)

Page 64 Quote:-

"If you come up behind a 'lane hog' who fails to move over when there is plenty of space, do not resort to aggressive tactics or attempt to teach a lesson. Flashing your headlights, tailgating or sounding your horn is not the way to get them to move and can often make them more stubborn.Maintain a proper braking distance, be patient and wait for an opportunity to overtake safely. Overtaking on the inside is illegal".

Sandwich · 26-09-2006 9:06pm

secret_squirrel wrote:

In a lot of countries Undertaking is not allowed and is considered dangerous - because other drivers expect the faster traffic to always been on their right.
)

But not in this case. The driver trundling along in the outer lane is surely not awake/alert enough to be thinking of other traffic at all, whatever side of them its on. If they were they wouldnt be stuck in the outer lane in the first place.

So you cant 'undertake' no matter how slow the car in the outer lane is even if the road ahead of you is clear?

I think the issue and conflict of law/prcatice is as follows:
The rules of the road are written with the assumption that everybody does everything correctly. If we did then there would be no problem. But they do not take ito account the consequences of someone else being at fault - in this case the car that does not pull back over into the left lane - and how you should deal with that. Taking the rules of the road to the letter then, a car in the right lane doing 10kph with a free left lane and road ahead of it should make all cars behind it slow to 10 also. Which of course is rediculous. So, not wanting to go for the tailgating/flashing option (in line also with the advanced driving post above), we overtake in the left line and move on. Breaking the law or not its the only sensible thing to do. Its just that the law does not allow for this situation.

Secret Squirrel, what speed was the 'slow' car doing that you overtook?

Idleater · 26-09-2006 10:11pm

Personally speaking as a biker, all larger width vehicles can do what they like, but I choose to do what I believe is adequate in the circumstances.

That means, that I determine "slow" traffic as any muppet that is hogging the overtaking lane, and any other driver that is too stupid to move left and make room for other road users.

I choose to drive in the normal lane, at normal speeds and have not yet been questioned about it, and I have followed garda cars doing so, and have had gardai follow me while doing so.

In fact, I do not know of any driver who has been questioned about driving in the normal lane beside a lane hogger.

It is the driving without due care and attention that "trumps" so to speak the overtaking on the left.

Realistically, anyone in a car, is not making progress on the roads. All you are doing is getting 10m further up the road before being stimied by another lane hogger.

On a bike, you have the advantage of agility, power, speed, acceleration and vision and use these to take advantage of the situation and make progress.

L.

Wishbone Ash · 26-09-2006 11:48pm

nereid wrote:

In fact, I do not know of any driver who has been questioned about driving in the normal lane beside a lane hogger.

I was - on the Swords bypass, about 12 years ago. I was travelling behind a car which was doing 25mph on the overtaking lane. I stayed patiently behind it from the Seatown Rd roundabout until after the Malahide Rd roundabout where I moved across to the left lane and overtook it. I was aware that it was illegal. When I moved back into the right lane, I heard sirens. The car I passed was an unmarked one (would have spotted it a mile away nowadays) with four of Ireland's finest on board. Pulled over and subjected to a comprehensive check of lights, brakes, tyres,insurance, tax, licence etc. (all in order) and cautioned under the relevant section of the RTA. With four Gardai going through the car, it looked to other motorists like a drugs bust or something

.

spareman · 26-09-2006 11:59pm

I thaught you could overtake in the left lane if the traffic in the left lane was moving quicker than in the right providing your not speeding obviously, or if the vehicle ahead of you is turning right. Does it not say simular in the rules of road book?

Wishbone Ash · 27-09-2006 12:04am

spareman wrote:

I thaught you could overtake in the left lane if the traffic in the left lane was moving quicker than in the right providing your not speeding obviously, or if the vehicle ahead of you is turning right. Does it not say simular in the rules of road book?

1. When driver ahead has indicated to turn right.

2. When you intend to turn left and have indicated your intention.

3. When traffic is queuing and the left queue moves more quickly than right.

(Obviously no. 1, turning right, would not apply on a motorway)

AMurphy · 27-09-2006 7:30am

Sandwich wrote:

.....

Personally, I pass on the inside every time (checking the lane for space indicating and only is space is available of course), without hesitation. I never tailgate/flash lights/horn although you do see it. Surely its safer just to pass on than have lots of traffic build up behind you.

Which side is the "inside". There a few terms used, Inside, Outside, Nearside & Farside and they are meaningless, with the possibility of Farside.... I'm always on the Farside. Use Left and Right as it applies to the vehicle.

As for the question, I see no problem with passing on the R or L on the Highway. but not on the shoulder, even if getting off atthe next exit ramp.

Idleater · 27-09-2006 9:23am

spareman wrote:

I thaught you could overtake in the left lane if the traffic in the left lane was moving quicker than in the right providing your not speeding obviously, or if the vehicle ahead of you is turning right. Does it not say simular in the rules of road book?

You are correct.

That was my point above.

Driving in the correct (left hand) lane, driving with due care and attention, there is nothing wrong with following your due course even if there is some muppet in another lane who decides to do something stupid.

It would be bizarre to come up behind someone doing 80kmph in a different lane to you, while you were doing 120kmph, have to brake to 78kmph, indicate right, and move into the right hand lane.

There are plenty of instances where it is wrong to overtake on the left though:

For instance, you are driving at 120kmph in the overtaking lane (on eg a clear road) and come up behind a muppet doing 80, if you switch to the left lane and immedietly to the right lane again.
Wishbone Ash, I believe this is why you were caught. In such a case, the driving in queues does not apply. The correct procedure in this case would be as described in the "advanced driving instructors" post above. Slow, move into the left (correct) lane and wait patiently until the other driver makes it safe for you to go by.

Once a queue has formed, then yes I believe it could be contested once the speeds are not disproportionate (ie one lane doing 10kmph and you go up the inside at 120kmph).

Common sense applies first and foremost in all cases.

L.

jayok · 27-09-2006 9:59am

Spareman's sig just reminded me:

If I'm a Dublin Bus driver and the cars in the left lane are doing say 60 km/hr but I have my own bus lane (think N4, 80 kph zone) which is of course the left-most land, and I am doing 80 km/hr. Am I breaking the law? Should I move into a more congested traffic lane to try and overtake?

I think not...

Wishbone Ash · 27-09-2006 11:35pm

jayok wrote:

Spareman's sig just reminded me:

If I'm a Dublin Bus driver and the cars in the left lane are doing say 60 km/hr but I have my own bus lane (think N4, 80 kph zone) which is of course the left-most land, and I am doing 80 km/hr. Am I breaking the law? Should I move into a more congested traffic lane to try and overtake?

I think not...

Bus lanes are different. You may have noticed that they are seperated by a continuous white line.

jayok · 27-09-2006 11:38pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Bus lanes are different. You may have noticed that they are seperated by a continuous white line.

Not really,I would imagine the continuous white line means don't cross. Does this mean when the bus lanes are outside hours (e.g. after 7pm in the evening I can undertake as I see fit? Don't think so...

Wishbone Ash · 27-09-2006 11:45pm

jayok wrote:

Not really,I would imagine the continuous white line means don't cross. Does this mean when the bus lanes are outside hours (e.g. after 7pm in the evening I can undertake as I see fit? Don't think so...

That's what I said in my post!

NeMiSiS · 28-09-2006 10:07am

There'd be no argument if peope used to ****ing roads properly, that's the sad thing. We need a big Tv/Radio/Farmers Journal campaign, "KEEP LEFT JACKASS".
TK

ianobrien · 28-09-2006 1:58pm

Thanks for the replies, and they have caused more debate here at work.

But, I think the the "Rules of the Road" book says that you should drive in the left hand lane. If I drive in the left hand lane, and move quicker than a car in the right hand lane, (provided I don't break the speed limit), am I breaking the law?

That was my original question. I still reckon that the answer to the above is NO, but the law isn't very clear on that point.

I'm still confused on whether I'm right or wrong

seamus · 28-09-2006 2:16pm

The key here is that the ROTR only states three occasions in which is acceptable to pass on the left:

1) When you are turning left a short distance ahead
2) When the vehicle in front is turning right ahead and has indicated their intention to do so
3) When the traffic is moving in queues and the traffic in the lane on your right is moving slower than the traffic in your lane.

I'm 100% that the "moving in queues" section is inserted to specifically end any confusion over this. You are not permitted to overtake on the left if it is simply a case of the vehicle in front moving too slowly. If you approach in the left-hand lane, and there is a slower moving vehicle in the right-hand lane, the legally correct procedure is to move into the right-hand lane, signal your intention to overtake, and wait for the vehicle to move over and let you pass. There is no argument about it, this is what you are supposed to do.

In the case of a three-lane carraigeway, where you are in the left-hand lane, and the other vehicle is in the centre lane, legally you are supposed to move to the right-hand lane to perform your overtake.

To answer the above question;

If I drive in the left hand lane, and move quicker than a car in the right hand lane, (provided I don't break the speed limit), am I breaking the law?

Well no. However overtaking that vehicle on the left *is* breaking the law.

That said, there would be days when traffic would make no progress if everyone sat waiting for the slow moron to move into the left-hand lane.

AMurphy · 29-09-2006 8:22pm

seamus wrote:

......

To answer the above question;
Well no. However overtaking that vehicle on the left *is* breaking the law.

That said, there would be days when traffic would make no progress if everyone sat waiting for the slow moron to move into the left-hand lane.

While I'll assume you are 100% correct regarding the situation. You will get the odd moron doing the limit or possibly less in the passing/fast/right lane on a empty highway (2 lane). And as you approach from behind they either continue to sleep and do nothing, or get all huffed and dig in the heels.
I simply will go by on the empty lane and let them carry on sleeping or watching TV or whatever they were doing.
Then you may get the next response, as soon as you begin to go by on the left, they wake up and as often as not speed up.... that's fine by me too, so long as they are not in my way or trying to cut me off.

Most normal, law abiding citizens will spot you gaining on them a ways back and pull over so as you can pass on the correct (right) side. But there are some mutts out there.

What is undertaking

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