Phoenix Park Tunnel

Ste.phen · 26-04-2006 2:08pm #1

On the subject of the phoenix park tunnel, which i've seen come up here from time to time:

Had a look at google maps earlier and the map for the area shows a train leaving the tunnel:

http://maps.google.com/?ll=53.346901,-6.302397&spn=0.003824,0.009613&t=h&om=1

*shrug* just thought i'd mention that.
I also had a look at broombridge "station"/bus depot, never realised before that there were rail tracks there, though i always thought the building looked like a train station.

murphaph · 26-04-2006 2:12pm

You mean Broadstone, not Broombridge. Broombridge doesn't even have a building, or anything really!

HelterSkelter · 26-04-2006 2:21pm

well done sherlock

MarkoP11 · 26-04-2006 2:58pm

Trains passing through the tunnel are by no means rare its a daily occurance upwards of 10 trains a day was not uncommon in the recent past, every coach and locomotive that has operated in Ireland in the last 50 years has probably been through the tunnel, including the entire DART fleet which visit Inchicore regularly in rotation for overhaul. One of the 2 Kildare line railcars travels back to Drogheda each evening

There are a number of practical matters which prevent its daily use for passengers, these come before any potential union issues which are minor in comparision, the biggest issue is you can't do Heuston Platform 10 to Connolly but you can do the reverse

murphaph · 26-04-2006 4:18pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are a number of practical matters which prevent its daily use for passengers, these come before any potential union issues which are minor in comparision, the biggest issue is you can't do Heuston Platform 10 to Connolly but you can do the reverse

But you could install a P11 opposite P10 (what should always have been done) and run straight through with no crossovers. The practical matters are trivial in cntext of T21 and certainly in comparison to the union ones of course, so we shouldn't allow it to deflect us from the right road. Trains through the PPT to Docklands! It would also be cheaper to just add the extra services the KRP will deliver to the PPT and not stop inbound at Heuston at all. Hell, what's the difference between that and what's gonna happen with Maynooth services into docklands.

Transport21 Fan · 26-04-2006 5:47pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

the biggest issue is you can't do Heuston Platform 10 to Connolly but you can do the reverse

Aren't you the same bloke who said that the current Docklands station pre-fab was the best CIE could do all things considered?

Transport21 Fan · 26-04-2006 5:57pm

murphaph wrote:

But you could install a P11 opposite P10 (what should always have been done) and run straight through with no crossovers. The practical matters are trivial in cntext of T21 and certainly in comparison to the union ones of course, so we shouldn't allow it to deflect us from the right road. Trains through the PPT to Docklands! It would also be cheaper to just add the extra services the KRP will deliver to the PPT and not stop inbound at Heuston at all. Hell, what's the difference between that and what's gonna happen with Maynooth services into docklands.

A lot of diffence. For starters this idea makes sense.

Even better. I have a map somewhere produced by IE which proposed building a direct loop from Hueston's Platform 9 through the car park and directly into the tunnel.

dowlingm · 26-04-2006 6:56pm

eh... I think CIE might skip P11 the way skyscrapers often skip the 13th floor

T21fan

MarkoP11 has done a lot for promoting sensible rail in this country. When you've done as much (don't know who you are so for all I know you could be Barry Kenny) then you can make the sniping remarks. That's two threads so far.

On the DART - it really mystifies me why the heck they didn't service the DARTs somewhere on the DART line! It must cost a fortune in staff costs etc. to position them (unpowered I guess) to and fro.

enterprise · 26-04-2006 8:38pm

dowlingm wrote:

On the DART - it really mystifies me why the heck they didn't service the DARTs somewhere on the DART line! It must cost a fortune in staff costs etc. to position them (unpowered I guess) to and fro.

Eh in case you hadn't noted the DART fleet is maintained in Fairview EMU depot. The only time DART's visit Inchicore is for wheel turning or heavy repairs. Beyond those two Fairview does everything else in house.

The biggest problem with the Park tunnel is lack of capacity in Connolly - quite simply there isn't any.

aliveandkicking · 26-04-2006 8:55pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are a number of practical matters which prevent its daily use for passengers, these come before any potential union issues which are minor in comparision, the biggest issue is you can't do Heuston Platform 10 to Connolly but you can do the reverse

Surely thats a very minor issue as in build a new platform opposite Platform 10 as Philip suggested and the problem is solved.

dowlingm wrote:

MarkoP11 has done a lot for promoting sensible rail in this country. When you've done as much (don't know who you are so for all I know you could be Barry Kenny) then you can make the sniping remarks.

enterprise wrote:

The biggest problem with the Park tunnel is lack of capacity in Connolly - quite simply there isn't any.

There is at weekends and off peak but IE still don't bother.

enterprise · 26-04-2006 9:02pm

If you don't do it Monday to Friday, when the demand would be the greatest while bother doing it at the weekend when hardly anybody travels (compared to weekday figures)?

NavanJunction1 · 26-04-2006 9:19pm

enterprise wrote:

If you don't do it Monday to Friday, when the demand would be the greatest while bother doing it at the weekend when hardly anybody travels (compared to weekday figures)?

Sat / Sun shoppers to Connolly and Tara street...

enterprise · 26-04-2006 9:27pm

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Sat / Sun shoppers to Connolly and Tara street...

Hope on a LUAS or 90, 92 and you there just as fast instead of taking a detour around North Inner Dublin.

You would just confuse the issue with the skulls. Run Mon to Fri trains to Heuston and then run Sat and Sun trains to Connolly. Sorry, but it just doesn't make one bit of sense.

aliveandkicking · 26-04-2006 9:38pm

Over recent years they have magically found new slots into Connolly during peak times for Northern and Maynooth line trains. if they were bothered they could do it for Kildare too.

A few months ago they ran a special train for Cork City fans which came from Cork, through the park tunnel and went to Connolly right in the middle of rush hour - makes you wonder doesn't it?

I believe MarkoP11 identified at least two peak time slots in Connolly to run Navan - Drogheda - Dublin trains.

paulm17781 · 26-04-2006 10:01pm

enterprise wrote:

You would just confuse the issue with the skulls. Run Mon to Fri trains to Heuston and then run Sat and Sun trains to Connolly. Sorry, but it just doesn't make one bit of sense.

IE claim there is no demand to use the PPT. At a conference with Kildate commuters, IE and Platform 11. P11 asked for a show of hands of who would be interested in using the tunnel for weekend services. There was a unanimous interest.

Running weekend services would atleast give IE a chance to test the demand for this.

MarkoP11 · 26-04-2006 10:37pm

I live in the real world and unless it fits on the plans it can't happen and I've actually seen the Spencer Dock plans. 5 separate observations have been submitted, I can name one

Given the current state of Spencer Dock the only possible location for a station is on the northside of Sheriff Street bridge, there is some freedom where it goes but not much. The assumed cost was always the provision of a 11th platform, that would be ballpark 3 million as it would have to be accessible. Since Iarnrod Eireann screwed up the Docklands situation a further 15 million has to be added on for a non ideal low capacity solution. On purely practical matters you need to find at least 1 further 8 coach railcar (16 million), thats 34 million thats not a walk in the park and would demand a cost benefit analysis since IE jacked it up by 15 million through the magic 30 million celling which triggers a CBA

The one key point is the feeling in Kildare and Newbridge is sort out the existing service first big changes given the current shambles would not be advisable. There is a concern quite rightly that having a different terminus could cause confusion, Sunday is the only day you could really do it as ever trains could run to Pearse, and yes a timetable has been produced to show it possible and there is support on the ground for it. Key points to note no 92 bus runs on Sunday, running through the Park tunnel is handy for Croke Park and of course there are those of us who would like to go to the Curragh on race days, Bray Kildare all stops on a Sunday could be useful. Kildare Heuston Sunday service is coming next year BTW.

There is however agreement that the last train of the evening should leave later and Pearse and Tara Street would do just fine saving the panic of missed connections and rush to Heuston.

BTW I've never actually met Barry Kenny nor do I foresee a need to meet the media spokesperson after all they can do nothing in terms of actually making changes happen, media people for companies put a positive spin on the indefensible, I talk to the engineers project managers and transport planners in both the RPA and IE they have the real power.

John R · 27-04-2006 2:34am

aliveandkicking wrote:

Over recent years they have magically found new slots into Connolly during peak times for Northern and Maynooth line trains. if they were bothered they could do it for Kildare too.

A few months ago they ran a special train for Cork City fans which came from Cork, through the park tunnel and went to Connolly right in the middle of rush hour - makes you wonder doesn't it?

I believe MarkoP11 identified at least two peak time slots in Connolly to run Navan - Drogheda - Dublin trains.

Fitting in an extra slot or two won't cut it, realistically the whole service would need to be run through and there isn't the capacity for that. Also slots for Drogheda line trains are easy enough to work in as they do not conflict with the main flow, through trains from PPT will have to cut across the DART/Northern commuter services causing much more disruption.

the Union thing is a red herring, it just doesn't fit. Until recently there were several regular trains daily (the Arklow-Cork ammonia service) on top of the servicing transfers. The unions blocking it line comes from a misreading/mis-quote about the lack of drivers now passed to drive the line which is a safety/rules issue stemming from the lower volume of traffic on the line in recent years.

One of the main downsides to Heuston for commuter traffic is that it makes the line unattractive for most of the Dublin suburbs it passes through, there is really no point in using it from anywhere closer than Clondalkin. A better city terminus would change that, not sure how popular Spencer dock surface would be but from the Kildare direction Drumcondra may well be a very popular location.

It is a good 10 years since I have travelled on the line AFAIR it was a pretty slow trip, can anyone give a figure for the journey time from Islandbridge-Connolly?

dowlingm · 27-04-2006 3:59am

A thoughtful member has pm'ed T21fan's identity to me, and assuming it's on the level I acknowledge T21s long standing interest in rail issues but am sad to see old rivalries haven't died yet. I'll say no more.

Benster · 27-04-2006 2:21pm

Igy wrote:

On the subject of the phoenix park tunnel, which i've seen come up here from time to time:

Had a look at google maps earlier and the map for the area shows a train leaving the tunnel:

http://maps.google.com/?ll=53.346901,-6.302397&spn=0.003824,0.009613&t=h&om=1

*shrug* just thought i'd mention that.
I also had a look at broombridge "station"/bus depot, never realised before that there were rail tracks there, though i always thought the building looked like a train station.

On closer inspection, I think the train in the pic is actually sitting on a siding to the right of the PP tunnel tracks. Anyone else see that?

B.

murphaph · 27-04-2006 2:39pm

I can't make it out but it's clearly a loco hauled mkII set (looks like an enterprise 209). This would probably be the rarest train you'd get through the tunnel. Much more likely to see freight or even railcars than loco hauled coaches (only through for GAA specials pretty much and no mkIIIs operate out of Connolly so they wouldn't be coming through for maintenance.) I reckon they're just parked up.

MarkoP11 · 27-04-2006 2:46pm

The train is a 6 coach MK3 push pull set hauled by an enterprise livered locomotive it is leaving platform 10 as its past the signal at the platform end. Its probably a summer Sunday in the last 2 years (You get good at reading aerial photos)

The union issue has some grounds there is rostering grading issue which differs, the Ammonia trains used to stop for some time at Heuston presumably for a driver change, its a long standing practice and the unions have never blocked it

Unless IE redo the timetable there is no way to gain significant capacity to add more than one or two trains to Connolly

Journey time is 15 minutes, which adds 30 minutes to the round trip which means you need a further trainset

Phoenix Park Tunnel

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