Am I really a Catholic??

The Fitz · 22-02-2005 12:41pm #1

Ive made my confirmation, bla bla bla the works, go to mass often enough but the other day while having a converstaion with my mates the topic of faith arose, my mate claims that if you dont believe that lord jesus turned the bread and wine into blood and his body then you're not catholic, I've never really thought about it but it's getting to me because I don't really believe it myself.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 22-02-2005 12:50pm

maybe you're protestant?

The Fitz · 22-02-2005 12:54pm

Do you believe it?

Zombienosh · 22-02-2005 12:57pm

I was baptised, made my communion and conformation etc etc
but I dont believe in god or jesus or blah dee blah, and I hate all organised religion....

what does that make me?

Goodshape · 22-02-2005 1:29pm

A non-practising Catholic or a 'baptised' Catholic maybe? Meaning basically that you've been through the ceremonys but don't actually believe a word of it.

Religion and spirituality are something inherent in all of us. Contrary to what the Catholic church may teach and practise, it isn't something that can be forced upon you - there is no one absolute religion.

My advise - don't let anybody else dictate your beliefs, not the church and not your friends. You can take an interest in what these people or institutions have to say, but ultamitely what you yourself choose to believe is all the 'religion' you require.

If Catholicism works for you, all well and good. If not, there are plenty of other ideas too choose from.

The Fitz · 22-02-2005 1:43pm

Well I still say my prayers every nite thou I do get easily distracted, none of mates believe in heaven or hell, I know a lot of the bible is stories but when you think about it, or any religion does it make any sense? I mean, after reading Angels and Demons by dan brown, ive really began questioning my faith

humanji · 22-02-2005 1:54pm

In fairness, Dan Brown books are mostly fiction with one or two real facts in them. You should definitely not be having a crisis of faith because of reading one of his books.

Goodshape · 22-02-2005 2:28pm

Then again the Bible's mostly fiction too

Seriously though.. don't believe what Dan Brown writes on the face of it. If you're actually interested in exploring the possibilities of spirituality - be they Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, paganism or atheism - there are plenty of resources available. Just load up Google and have a search.

It is my personal belief that anyone claiming to have the 'ticket' or the set of absolute rules to follow to get into 'heaven', is full of it. No body knows for sure, but the ability to question is one of our greatest and most fundamental freedoms.

seamus · 22-02-2005 2:38pm

In theory, it makes you not Catholic. But if being Catholic means following the details of the religion down to the letter, then there would be a handful of people in the world who could call themselves Catholic. Even the Pope himself would have trouble justifying his title.

A written message the Pope distributed yesterday exclaimed "the truths of the (Roman Catholic) faith are not open to arbitrary interpretations", but in a perfect contradiction (as the Church is wont to do) also said that Catholics were free to exchange their opinions.

Personally, it's all a load of my arse. I was baptised and confirmed Catholic, but I've since renounced that faith because even though it's core is still solid, the rest is corrupt, rotten and a means of control. If Catholicism is a Melon, then there's on tiny pip in the centre, but the rest is black and decaying.

My 2c.

The Fitz · 22-02-2005 2:41pm

appreciated, It just feels weird though

dewsbury · 22-02-2005 2:48pm

No you are not a true catholic.
But don't despair nobody is truly any religion.

People have religions for cultural reasons, for family and social reasons,to fulfil the need to belong and the need to believe that we are here for a reason. (For similar reasons that they follow football clubs!).

Isn't it remarkable that on a world wide basis people tend to remain the religion that they were born into ? Obviously no deep analysis of why they believe and exactly what they believe. They can't all be right and by definition most (all?) are wrong!

And the point about the body & blood of Christ is interesting ...... I am no expert but would guess that many (most?) Catholics don't believe the host is the actual body of Christ. This makes them (unknowingly) Protestants !!

Personally I find it somewhat cringing & embarrassing when apparently inteligent people talk about their faith.

NewFrockTuesday · 22-02-2005 3:00pm

using your wonderful advice again dewsbury. why dont you get orlas opinion on this?

SkepticOne · 22-02-2005 11:53pm

dewsbury wrote:

And the point about the body & blood of Christ is interesting ...... I am no expert but would guess that many (most?) Catholics don't believe the host is the actual body of Christ. This makes them (unknowingly) Protestants !!

Which denomination of Prodestants? If he is Irish and is mainly OK with Catholic mass and ceremonies but not transsubstatiation, then Church of Ireland might be a good choice.

Talliesin · 24-02-2005 3:38am

dewsbury wrote:

But don't despair nobody is truly any religion.

Does the Pope get to be Catholic at least?

dewsbury wrote:

Isn't it remarkable that on a world wide basis people tend to remain the religion that they were born into ? Obviously no deep analysis of why they believe and exactly what they believe.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. Sure, someone who doesn't analyse a faith they were raised in will continue to identify as a member of that faith, but a seeker may well find that what spoke to their parents, their family and their community speaks to them as well.

dewsbury wrote:

They can't all be right and by definition most (all?) are wrong!

Amusing that in attacking all religions on the Christianity board you here state the Christian view* I most strongly disagree with as if it were a fact or universal to all religious belief.

dewsbury wrote:

And the point about the body & blood of Christ is interesting ...... I am no expert but would guess that many (most?) Catholics don't believe the host is the actual body of Christ.

Most Catholics that I've spoken to on the subject (and that would be quite a few Catholics of my aquaintance given my interest in comparative religion) do believe in transubstantiation. Many have difficulties or doubts, but it's still a belief that is part of their view of how they commune with their God and the central mystery of their mass.

dewsbury wrote:

This makes them (unknowingly) Protestants

That makes them heretics from the Catholic perspective. To be Protestants they'd have to believe in Protestantism - belief in Christ as a mediator between God and humanity (generally, as the sole mediator), belief in Christian scripture as the sole authority on Christianity, belief in Justification by Faith, belief in salvation through Grace rather than merit, and belief that Glory is due only to God† and that no veneration is due to saints, clergy, secular authority‡ or the Church itself.

I think it is rather insulting to define Protestantism merely in the negative - as not Catholic or Orthodox (though some bigots within that community do seem to have a religion defined purely in terms of what they are against). It also overlooks the existence of other Christians who the Catholic Church would consider heretics but who are not Protestants (which would include a large number of people who were raised Catholic but who later moved away from some aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine without converting to Protestantism).

dewsbury wrote:

Personally I find it somewhat cringing & embarrassing when apparently inteligent people talk about their faith.

I find it cringe-worthy and embarassing when people make half-assed pseudo-intellectual arguments against religion in the pursuit of making themselves feel smart. It makes me feel sorry for the genuinely smart sceptics in particular.

*Yes, I know there are Christians that don't believe their way is the only way too.
†Leibniz wrote about the distinction between honour and worship despite his being a Protestant, though it is notable that he strove to undo the split between the Roman and Reformed Churches.
‡Secular authorities, including one's parents and teachers, are due honour in Catholic doctrine, though obviously this does not preclude acting against them if they behave in a manner strongly opposed by the Chuch. Most Protestants would believe that such people are certainly due respect.

Talliesin · 24-02-2005 3:44am

fitzer666 wrote:

I've never really thought about it but it's getting to me because I don't really believe it myself.

I think the important thing here is to think about what you do believe. Also, I think it's important to think about what is important to you about your Catholicism - the faith itself? the tradition? the sacraments? the rite of absolution? that it's what you were brought up in? the mystery of the mass?

Unless you are thinking of making a complete break with Catholicism (and that certainly doesn't seem like something you are going to do soon) perhaps you should talk to a priest, either arranging to meet him or in the confessional.

Sleepy · 24-02-2005 3:48am

Is there anything one should do in order to become free of their Confirmation if they renounce Catholicism and Religeon in general? Do I need to write to the Vatican or something to 'officially' leave the Catholic Church?

Talliesin · 24-02-2005 4:50am

Sleepy wrote:

Is there anything one should do in order to become free of their Confirmation if they renounce Catholicism and Religeon in general? Do I need to write to the Vatican or something to 'officially' leave the Catholic Church?

You can leave the Church through a "formal act of defection". This is any act that can be proven in an external forum (it's a matter of Canon Law, rather than of Catholic Doctrine, so it's framed in a legalistic manner). Some people choose to write to the bishop of the diocese in which they were baptised stating that they are leaving the Church, sometimes also asking that records of their membership of the Church be struck.

Joining another denomination or religion is generally seen as a formal act of defection also. However this would require that the religion has some degree of organisation (i.e. there's something to "join") and that the act of entry is to some degree public. Examples that wouldn't fit would be Wiccan initiation (officially nobody's business but the initiate and the initiator, and done in private) and coverting to Islam (which merely requires that you say with sincerity "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet"). Examples that would fit would be conversion to Judaism (a long process that culminates in a public rite) or to the Church of Latter Day Saints (who have a public rite of entry, and keep records of membership).

If you sought to re-join the Catholic Church you would need to recant whatever act of defection you left with (for instance writing to the bishop again). If you'd joined another religion it may be necessary for you to leave that again (just how formal or informal that is depends on the religion, no religion that is active in the United States will insist that you can't leave after the Church of Latter Day Saints got sued for $18million but with some there's a formal procedure, with some it's "right so, see you around"). You would not have to redo your Baptism (Baptism is a matter of doctrine rather than law and is considered permanent).

On the one hand, since you've left do you really care? On the other hand some people do find it gives a sense of closure after a degree of soul-searching.

seamus · 24-02-2005 9:47am

Sleepy wrote:

Is there anything one should do in order to become free of their Confirmation if they renounce Catholicism and Religeon in general? Do I need to write to the Vatican or something to 'officially' leave the Catholic Church?

You see, this is the one strange thing. Since Catholicism is a faith, a set of beliefs, then it's fair to say that once you renounce that set of beliefs and no longer believe in the Catholic Church, then you're no longer Catholic. In your head, one is only part of a religion if you believe you are. I don't think there's anything in law that says "If you're baptised Catholic, then you're Catholic until you publically specify otherwise.". Canon law may say that, but if I don't recognise the Catholic Church, that means I don't recognise Canon law, ergo I'm no longer Catholic, and I don't have to do anything.

It's kind of circular, although I'm leaving out the "struck off" bit because chances are herself will want a big Cathlic wedding, so I'm keepign things simple

The Fitz · 03-03-2005 9:42pm

I do believe in god and heaven ad hell, selling my soul and the rest but the part about the sacrement of mass when the priest changes the bread and wine into the blood of christ and body of christ i just dont buy.

Hardstuff · 08-03-2005 12:23am

Can you tell me why you do not believe it?

pwd · 08-03-2005 12:31am

Mordeth wrote:

maybe you're protestant?

protestants are catholics.

(just not Roman Catholics)

Hardstuff · 08-03-2005 12:35am

Well, he was talking about that. The belief in Transubstantiation. It is a miracle. Every time we attend Mass we witness a miracle, the miracle that is Transubstantiation. It cannot be explained, and it is a matter of faith. Either you can believe in it... or...

Now, technically, you've followed all the other beliefs and teachings of Catholicism, but this is one of its core beliefs. I, and I suppose the others here, are unable to answer that question. Only you can answer it, I suggest talking to a Priest or a religious teacher. They do not judge, so do not worry.

The Fitz · 08-03-2005 2:26pm

I cant explain why I dont believe it, i just dont

larryone · 05-04-2005 11:20am

Well I've tasted blood, (my own) and I've tasted the stuff they have in that chalice, and yeknow, it doesnt taste at all the same... It tastes more like... hmmm like wine...
I think it comes down to what interpretation of "this is my body" etc you take.
Long time ago, a group of people took it very very literally, and also took "do this in memory of me" very very literally. This is where the belief in transubstantiation comes from.
If you dont take it (or every other word in the new testement) completely literally, thats ok. When the ritual takes place, the priest usually says "Let it besome for us the body and blood..." The "us" refers to those who believe. For anyone who doesnt believe it, it's still bread and wine. But that doesnt exclude you from being a Catholic.
You can still view the act of taking the bread and wine as a symbolic geature, that you are doing "in memory of" Jesus. I know Catholics who do.
I used to be one of them...

archdukefranz · 05-04-2005 2:12pm

There are core beliefs that the catholics hold, if you believe all them then you can call yourself a catholic, I'm not sure if the wine->blood is one of them? Ask a priest.

I think you should be more worried about whether or not you are a Christian

larryone · 05-04-2005 4:04pm

I dont think you necessarily have to follow all them to consider yourself catholic. Maybe to be considered as catholic by others......
(*ponders the meaning of the word catholic*)

What do you mean by "Christian" ???

johnnyq · 08-04-2005 12:55am

The Fitz wrote:

I cant explain why I dont believe it, i just dont

Of course belief in transubstantiation is a challenging one. The bread and wine don't visablely or tastingly change during this miracle, you don't see sparks coming from the priest's hands at the time of blessing but something does change. I feel this issue is a defining feature of your faith. Think of Thomas, who didn't believe until he had seen Jesus, if we have complete faith in the power of God then we will believe that this change - almost undetectable, actually happens. It should be highlighted that much of the foundations of protestantism was resentment with the authority of the Pope in Rome as well as different beliefs. Having difficulty in believing in transubstantiation does not mean you are not a Catholic and should automatically look towards another faith. As you said, you pray to God and believe in the message of Jesus and I gather that you do believe that the Pope is Jesus' representative on earth. Doubting is a perfectly normal part of being human and should not deprive you of your Catholic faith, it is tough to believe and follow the path of Jesus [through Catholism]. I would ask you to keep praying and ask Jesus to help you understand your difficulty with transubstantiation. Jesus WILL help everyone in their time of need if they ASK - who knows, he might show you an angle of the miracle you have not thought of - never underestimate the power of God.

neuro-praxis · 08-04-2005 11:01am

Perhaps a belief or not in transubstantiation is a defining issue of denomination, but I strongly disagree that it is a defining issue of faith.

Am I really a Catholic??

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