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Smoking ban law in car with a child, and smoking in home with a child in the room

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24

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gbear wrote: »
    I'm a libertarian but I don't understand the "liberal" perspective on allowing people to smoke in front of others.

    I can't slap you in the face.
    I don't see why other forms of assault, such as blowing poisonous chemicals at you, should be deemed acceptable.

    You should be able to consume whatever you like. I'm not sure why you should be able to force others to consume it at the same time.
    Arguably, smoke would be diffuse enough outdoors that it ought to be permitted, but there's no escaping it in confined spaces.

    So you feel assaulted by smokers, cars, factories etc.?

    You need not, you know. Cos it's not assault.


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    #33
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Yes, absolutely. Would you let your 5 year old smoke? Why would you blow your second hand smoke into her face if you wouldn't? Would it kill someone to go outside and smoke? They can't smoke inside in pubs or restaurants in order to show a bit of respect to other patrons and staff, and it hasn't Inconvienced too many people. Besides the fact smoking inside is beyond disgusting, it's the child's home too and the parents are being selfish, putting their own satisfaction above their child's wellbeing


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    daRobot wrote: »
    Smoking itself obviously does not make a bad parent, but smoking in front of the child in an enclosed enviroment most certainly does.

    Are you saying otherwise?

    Well, you say my father was "most certainly" a bad parent so.

    I think you are wrong, we'll agree to disagree.


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    #35
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So you feel assaulted by smokers, cars, factories etc.?

    You need not, you know. Cos it's not assault.

    Then how would you class blowing poisonous chemicals in someone's face?

    We're clearly pretty far behind where we need to be on dealing with emissions that are poisoning us and our atmosphere but the principle is essentially the same.

    You're not allowed to poison people's air supply.
    That they don't immediately die when you do it isn't carte blanche to do as you like.

    A slap in the face or spitting in your eye aren't life-threatening either, but I would imagine that both could be considered assault.
    Banning recklessly expelling poisonous smoke at people, particularly in a non-ventilated, enclosed area, seems entirely consistent with other laws intended to physically protect people.


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    #36
    BunkMoreland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 820 ✭✭✭BunkMoreland


    Smokers are vile, weak beings. Too stupid to understand why is not a good idea to smoke in a car with a child.


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    #37
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I think it's a bit unfair to be bringing in multi-generational perspectives on this. My father smoked too, and in the home. He smoked most of his life (quit them about ten years before he died), and when he started, smoking was entirely acceptable, even encouraged. (He was born in the late '30s). Across his life, attitudes to smoking generally changed, but it wasn't considered particularly awful to smoke in front of the kids even when I was growing up - I'm in my late 20s now. Basically, there's no point judging our parents by standards today in terms of smoking in front of young children. The whole societal attitude to the habit is different.

    Smoking is on the way out anyway. I think my generation, maybe the one just after mine (kids who are teenagers at the moment) is probably the last generations that will be exposed directly and regularly to smoking being a normal habit. I don't think there is any real harm in discouraging smoking in the car with young kids in the back, it's a bad and unhealthy habit and it's no harm to discourage normalisation of it to sprogs. It's also worth considering the effect it might have on children in school in terms of children smelling of cigarette smoke. On the other hand, it's also not worth making it a mysterious forbidden thing that younger teenagers know is happening and think is an adult thing to be doing.

    Sure, ideally all parents would quit smoking when they get pregnant. It's not a good thing to be doing while there's a pregnant woman in close proximity to you (or if you're pregnant yourself). Most of us know it's a hard habit to break though.
    BunkMoreland wrote: »
    Smokers are vile, weak beings. Too stupid to understand why is not a good idea to smoke in a car with a child.

    Aren't you a charmer? No bad habits yourself at all then? Body is a temple, no drink, no caffeine, watch the carbs like they might bite at any moment?

    You can disagree with the habit all you like, but making a sweeping judgement on a person based entirely on one habit is indeed the sign of a weak character (or at the very least, a very poor method of judging character). Also, humans being what they are, many can probably cope with the concept of being a smoker (or someone who drinks alcohol or lots of caffeine) and still agree that it's best not to push any of them onto children.


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    #38
    daRobot
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭daRobot


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Well, you say my father was "most certainly" a bad parent so.

    I think you are wrong, we'll agree to disagree.

    From your username, I can only guess that you're around 42, in which case your father smoked around you in a different era, where it was far more socially acceptable.

    Kids were often in smokey pubs, so it all seemed more normal. So I would't be too quick to judge him - society as a whole then was more ignorant.

    But doing it today? Different story in my opinion and I'm amazed that you could deem it anything other than being a sign of a selfish, inconsiderate and thoughtless (aka, bad) parent.


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gbear wrote: »
    Then how would you class blowing poisonous chemicals in someone's face?

    We're clearly pretty far behind where we need to be on dealing with emissions that are poisoning us and our atmosphere but the principle is essentially the same.

    You're not allowed to poison people's air supply.
    That they don't immediately die when you do it isn't carte blanche to do as you like.

    A slap in the face or spitting in your eye aren't life-threatening either, but I would imagine that both could be considered assault.
    Banning recklessly expelling poisonous smoke at people, particularly in a non-ventilated, enclosed area, seems entirely consistent with other laws intended to physically protect people.

    It's not assault. Assault involves contact or the threat of contact.


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    #40
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    There's no way to police smoking in the home and I've no opinion on laws being brought in regarding it but the decent thing for any parent to do is not to smoke inside the home.


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    #41
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You think parenting is that black and white, there is a right way and a wrong way?

    Solely on the issue of smoking inside the home when there are children about (which is what the thread is about), do you think it's a black and white issue?


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    osarusan wrote: »
    Solely on the issue of smoking inside the home when there are children about (which is what the thread is about), do you think it's a black and white issue?

    No. No more than, say, drinking alcohol in front of them and normalising it, or giving them junk food. I wouldn't approve of it, but I certainly would not say they are bad parents because of that, it's a very narrow focus.


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    #43
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No. No more than, say, drinking alcohol in front of them and normalising it, or giving them junk food. I wouldn't approve of it, but I certainly would not say they are bad parents because of that, it's a very narrow focus.

    I didn't say anything about them being bad parents generally.

    I would say it is an act of bad parenting though. I'd say that's black and white myself.


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    #44
    Satriale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭Satriale


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    When I was in junior infants my teacher would smoke in the classroom.

    Aaah the fond memories. 5th/6th class, your man taking his feet off the desk and laying his pipe down, saying get me down the Blackthorn stick Master Satriale and make sure your knuckles are over the desk this time. :(


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    #45
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Perspective.

    The mother who tore her uterus during the 2 days of labour with that child, who worked 2 jobs to make ends meet, who gave up her social life, holidays for that child, who lost sleep, aged, went without for that child, who is in every way the most devoted parent has a cigarette, her one solace, and you think "that's just SO unfair"?

    Maybe a little less judgement?

    "I struggled to bring you in to this world and keep you here, so I have the right to take you out of it early if I want"
    Would it be too much judgement to expect parents to feed their kids enough to keep them alive rather than sit there in front of them eating it all themselves every day?


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    "I struggled to bring you in to this world and keep you here, so I have the right to take you out of it early if I want"

    Never go near MacDonalds. It's just wall to wall parents trying to snuff out their kids lives...


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    #47
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh obviously I agree that one should go outside.

    But on the other hand, I wouldn't judge a parent on that one issue. There are far more important things. My dad lived under a cloud of smoke...but he was the most wonderful father. I would hate to think a teacher might have smelled the smoke and judged him to be unfair to me.

    We've moved on a huge amount even from the 80's .Theres no excuse for such ignorance at this stage.


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    #48
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Never go near MacDonalds. It's just wall to wall parents trying to snuff out their kids lives...

    So **** it, give you're kids cancer, sure they do other bad things. :rolleyes:


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    #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    So **** it, give you're kids cancer, sure they do other bad things. :rolleyes:

    I think both parenting and indeed the act of smoking are a little more complex than a determination to kill kids or let them live.

    Parents can and do bad things with kids, feed them junk, drive badly, drink alcohol around them. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!


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    #50
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think both parenting and indeed the act of smoking are a little more complex than a determination to kill kids or let them live.

    Parents can and do bad things with kids, feed them junk, drive badly, drink alcohol around them. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!

    I dont. I consider anyone that smokes in a confined space with someone who doesnt want them too, to be hugely selfish and some far stronger words I'll allow you to insert yourself. I'd include all the ***** that are so lazy they stand right at the door of pubs/restaurants/****ing hospitals :rolleyes: etc creating a constant cloud of smoke people have to walk through to get in.


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    #51
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Deleted User wrote: »

    Parents can and do bad things with kids, feed them junk, drive badly, drink alcohol around them. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!

    I'm sure that any kids (or adults for that matter) that end up being killed are delighted they got all the experiences in life and not just the ones that didnt kill them.


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    #52
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think both parenting and indeed the act of smoking are a little more complex than a determination to kill kids or let them live.

    Who ever said anything about a determination or any kind of intention? Parents who beat their children have no determination or intention to kill them. What of it?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Parents can and do bad things with kids, feed them junk, drive badly, drink alcohol around them. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!

    Is that a lame joke or just the worlds worst sincere argument? That's a call to justify literally anything. "Life's rich tapestry" is a demonstration to children of what is, and not what should be. They don't need to learn about the bad stuff in life from experiencing it directly. We don't have to take a field trip to Syria or allow all kids to be abused so that they understand that life has some really crap parts to it.


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    #53
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Perspective.

    The mother who tore her uterus during the 2 days of labour with that child, who worked 2 jobs to make ends meet, who gave up her social life, holidays for that child, who lost sleep, aged, went without for that child, who is in every way the most devoted parent has a cigarette, her one solace, and you think "that's just SO unfair"?

    Maybe a little less judgement?

    You're so right. That mother has earned the right to do whatever the **** she wants with her child's health after what he put her through.


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Erm...
    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    You're so right. That mother has earned the right to do whatever the **** she wants with her child's health after what he put her through.
    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Is that a lame joke or just the worlds worst sincere argument?


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    #55
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Erm...

    Good one. I'll take lame joke over horrible sincere argument any day, if that's the choice.


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    #56
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's not assault. Assault involves contact or the threat of contact.

    I'm not 100% sure about Irish law but it seems that spitting on someone can be classed as assault or something similar in the UK and the US.

    There's no physical contact there.
    You're violating someone's bodily autonomy and that's enough.

    Whether you'd be charged or not is another matter but it is illegal.
    Expelling a poisonous gas at them rather than a liquid ought not to be seen any differently.
    It would certainly be more likely to cause harm.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gbear wrote: »
    Expelling a poisonous gas at them rather than a liquid ought not to be seen any differently.
    It would certainly be more likely to cause harm.

    So that's every car driver nicked?

    How about people with fires in their houses?


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    #58
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Gbear wrote: »
    Then how would you class blowing poisonous chemicals in someone's face?
    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Why would you blow your second hand smoke into her face...

    Easy there Helen and Maude.


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    #59
    SVJKarate
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭SVJKarate


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know parents who never smoked around their children.

    Alcoholic, beat them, but never smoked.

    By that logic, it's OK to smoke wherever you want as long as you don't beat your kids, or commit worse crimes?

    The OP and others make a very valid point - it's simply wrong to smoke around your kids. Excusing people for doing it on the basis that other people are alcoholics and / or beat their kids / wives is simply a nonsense. Smoking around your kids may not be the worst thing you can do to them, but it's irresponsible parenting and there's nothing wrong with calling it what it is.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SVJKarate wrote: »
    By that logic, it's OK to smoke wherever you want as long as you don't beat your kids, or commit worse crimes?.

    Um.

    No.

    In saying that parents should not be judged because they smoke near children, I am not saying what you suggest at all. I think you are being deliberately obtuse, you could not have drawn that conclusion from my comments.


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    #61
    SVJKarate
    Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭SVJKarate


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think both parenting and indeed the act of smoking are a little more complex than a determination to kill kids or let them live.

    Parents can and do bad things with kids, feed them junk, drive badly, drink alcohol around them. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!

    You can actually educate your kids for the better by drinking responsibly around them. Staying sober, exercising self-control, etc. and not driving afterwards.

    Smoking in front of your kids is unlikely to teach them anything useful, since it's already demonstrating poor decision-making and a lack of consideration.


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