Was the Loughgall ambush a mistake by the British?

tac foley wrote: »

Please don't overlook 'incidental' events like the Omagh bombing...

You seem to be privy to a lot of information about the SAS ROEs. Please feel free to enlighten us further.

tac

Well the Omagh bombing is a good example of what I'm talking about. The people who planted that bomb or were involved with the operation could have very easily joined the IRA in the wake of Loughgall. Loughgall imo was a Pyrrhic victory for the British.

Again like I said the IRA before Loughgall 1984 - 1987 was some of the IRA's lowest amount of attacks per year & beside a handful of "spectaculars" by the East Tyrone Brigade there wasn't much else.. By 1992 their attacks per year doubled since 1988 & kept rising in 1993 & 1994, if they continued 1994 without a ceasefire they probably would have close to the amount of attacks launched in 1981 & 1982, over 100 British forces were killed in those 2 years.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Aren't there rumors that senior republicans sold out their own at Loughall including an informer who was among the dead?
At that time the Shinners were moving away from armed struggle and preparing to building purpose the path of democratic politics.
The Walter Mitty types who continued to dream of Irish unification through armed struggle were edged out - imprisoned or killed by the security forces - to assist the rise of Adams and McGuinness who took over and eventually led the republicans into the ceasefires and ultimately decommissioning.

Yep, I've heard that, don't know if it's true or not but it wouldn't surprise me. That unit was the most ambush & how destroyed numerous barracks & RUC stations in the last 2 years prior to Loughgal, Ballygawley & the Birch's barracks being the 2 most famous. There operations were not aimed at killing people (nobody was killed in the Birches attack) it was just to destroy remote barracks & RUC stations just like the original IRA did in 1919 & 1920. Jim Lynagh & Paddy Kelly the leaders of the East Tyrone Brigade had drawn up plans for a full scale offensive using flying columns just like the original IRA. So it's very possible they were set up.

Anyway if they were being set-up the SAS could have made the area safe & they wouldn't have ended up murdering 2 civilians as well.

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Pyrrhic victory my arse. At Loughgall the Brits wiped out a full IRA team including some of their most senior members in the space of a few minutes. In the following few years the security forces were repeatedly able to ambush IRA units in East Tyrone because they either had informants, signals intelligence or due to the sheer incompetence of some IRA recruits. Twice later three man armed IRA teams were wiped out in ambushes (at Coagh and Drumnakilly). The idiotic attack on Clonoe RUC base was utterly incompetent and led to the deaths of four more IRA men.

Then we could go on to mention the glorious murder of seven protestant civilians and one part time soldier when the IRA blew up a bus at Teebane. What a proud day that was to be Irish!

I have no idea what kind of logic gets you to interpret what was very obviously a severe defeat for the IRA into a victory, and to honest I don't care. However, I would very much appreciate if you would post this kind of rabble rousing political bull-shyte elsewhere because it has nothing to do with either history or heritage.

Well we could on about collusion during the, Milltown, Greysteel & Loughinisland massacres. Or when the SAS killed a 15 year old boy who stumbled across 2 guns in Dunloy & when his father went to see the worst thing a farther could just before he seen it a SAS scumbag said to him "the other bastard is in there" & a pack of them giggled like little school girls. I'd imagine that's what most SAS are like, they think their making Clint Eastwood films. Or Brit Lee Clegg remember him? He got jailed for about 2 yearss for murdering 2 teens sitting in a car. Or the Brits murdering another 2 Catholic teens in 1990. But we won't get into that.

The team they "wiped" out at Loughgall (even though it was 8 vs at-least 36 SAS & about 20+ armed in support roles which is now 56 vs 8, if they didn't wipe them out they would have been useless there is no way the SAS could have possibly lost with so many people, if it was 8 vs 8 it might have been a different story) might have been experienced but they were causing little real trouble for the Brits, they didn't kill very many of them. Infact more Brits died in the following 6 years after Loughgall than they had in the previous 6 years before it That means the victory at Loughgall carried a heavy price, possibly to heavy which might make it Pyrrhic.

A year after Loughgall the British suffered their worst loss of life in 7 years when 8 were killed & 28 injured in a bomb attack in Ballygawley & just a month before that they lost another 6 Brits in Lisburn in another bomb attack.

In 1989 the IRA killed 11 British soldiers in Deal, England when they blew their barracks up and injured 21. That's already 26 IRA vs 11 SAS. A few months after that the East Tyrone Brigade ambushed a British Army checkpoint overrunning it & planting a bomb in it that only half exploded & they killed 2 Brits & injuring 2 more making their way into the compound
A senior British military officer, when quizzed about the IRA attack, said

They are murdering bastards, but they are not cowards. This team actually pressed home a ground attack right into the heart of the compound. That takes guts when there are people firing back

So the East Tyrone brigade clearly were not on the run as you put it. The most the SAS killed after Loughgall was 4 in Clonoe & they killed 3 Volunteers about 3 or 4 times. They hardly had them on the ropes.

In 1990 the IRA counter-ambushed a Brit undercover unit in Cullyhana killing a lance sergeant.
The sudden counter-ambush disrupted the British operation, and the officer in charge aborted it. He later stated that:

In military terms, it was one of the IRA's finest attacks in South Armagh. They picked out the COP team in the most exposed position. With hindsight, it was the one weak link in the operation and it says something for the IRA's tactical and field skills that they identified that fact before we did.

Just before that attack 4 Brits were killed when the IRA exploded a landmine under their patrol vehicle in Downpatrick, Down.
In July of 1990 the IRA bombed the London stock exchange. That must have cost a few quid.
And on the same day they killed 3 RUC in a landmine attack in Cullyhana.
In October 1990 7 British soldiers were killed in IRA bomb attacks. A month later Thatcher retired.


At the start of 1991 the IRA mortared downing street which was a huge coup for Republicans & morale booster.
Later in 1991 the IRA bombed a barracks in Glenanne killing 3 soldiers & injuring 14.
Also in 1991 one of the most amazing ambushes by the IRA's East Tyrone Brigade took place when they fired a hidden mortar at a passing British Army Land Rovers killing 2 Brits & injuring another 2.

In 1992 the IRA bombed Balltic Exchange causing 1 billion pounds worth of damage
A month later they attacked a British Army checkpoint killing 1 soldier & injuring 23.. The British Army's official report about this incident stated:

"This was a well-planned and well-executed attack indicative of the imaginative, innovative and capable nature of South Armagh PIRA

In August 1992 the South Armagh sniping team undertook their first successful shooting, killing a Brit in Crossmaglen.
In October they undertook a huge operation wiping out the Irish Peoples Liberation Organization in Belfast in the space of a few hours killing their COS & keecapping dozens of others.

In 1993 the IRA bombed Bishopsgate causing almost half a billion pounds worth of damage.

In March 1994 the IRA mortared Heathrow several times. It was probably more show than anything a type of "when can hit when ever we want & where ever we want" action.
Also in 1994 the INLA ambushed 3 top UVF Volunteers who also happened to be big agents for MI5, which like I said in the top of my post the Loughinisland ambush was revenge for this. Most UVF & UFF members were also agents that's why it was so easy for them to kill as many Catholics as they wanted without getting caught. That's why the LVF didn't last to long.

And between 1988 & 1994 the IRA forced 5 British choppers out of the sky,

Then in 1996 the IRA blew up the Docklands causing 100 million pounds worth of damage.
On the 15th of June the IRA exploded the largest bomb on the British mainland ever. Even tho there were no deaths & only minor injuries The damage by the bomb was estimated by insurers at 800 million pound.
Then in October the IRA infiltrated the British Armies HQ in Ireland & car-bombed it, killing a Brit & injuring 32 others.

At the start of 1997 the South Armagh killed the last British soldier during the PIRA's 1969 - 1997 campaign in Bessbrook,
And in June the the IRA ambushed & killed 2 RUC officers the last to die until 2009 by the CIRA.
And I only add this part in to show Loyalists have been like this for almost 20 years now. After Billy Wright was killed the LVF killed a Catholic & injured another 3. In a statement after the attack the LVF said:

"This attack and future attacks lay squarely at the feet of republicans. For too long the Protestant people have watched their very faith, culture and identity being slowly eroded away".

Not a wonder Willie Frazer liked Billy Wright.

Anyway you might hate the IRA & that's fine, but your hatred is clouding your judgement. The half a dozen or so SAS attacks on the IRA were hard to swallow for Republicans but they didn't come close to to beating them. 91 IRA Volunteers or Soldiers of The Irish Republic (whatever you prefer) were killed between 1972 & 1973. The IRA went through much worse times like 1975- 1976 when they lost a lot of top people who were being arrested & they were struggling with funds & weapons. And just a week before 1976 the IRA's Balcombe Street unit who were causing mayhem around England especially London were arrested, if they kept going for another 2 years there's a big chance Britain would pull out of the North, the pressure with bombs on the mainland was enormous.
But then they were gone & they admitted to the Guildford bombings.

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Your long, rambling post is long and rambling and mostly irrelevant - an utter waste of time on your part.

What on earth has collusion got to do with your original post? What has Lee Clegg and co. shooting joyriders 4 years later got to do with it? What have the INLA got to do with any of this thread?

I never claimed the Loughgall ambush was a knockout blow against the IRA, but it was most certainly a victory for the British Army.

While Bloody Sunday, internment, the hunger strikes etc, were own goals by the British Loughgall wasn't. Other than hard core republicans no one at the time really gave two hoots about it.



I don't hate anyone (well, except Martin Johnson). I just don't understand the logic that it's ok for the IRA to kill people but when IRA members are killed on active service it's an outrage. It's just what happens in a war.

As for 'clouded judgement' - people in glass houses shouldn't through stones.

Yeah I'm not going to sit here & be insulted by you you were the one who brought Teebane up so I threw some stuff back at you, clearly you can't take as good as you give I wanted to concentrate on Loughgall & the aftermath.. I wasn't rambling I was telling you exactly 100% what happened in the years before Loughgall & the years after. Tell me what part of my post was lies? You can't face the facts that's your problem not mine. If your just going to insult me again don't bother replying to me because I wont sink to your level & reply back & get in a slagging match.

I think you were just hell bent on derailing the thread.