Rape vs Other Injuries

Sleepy · 17-07-2015 3:37pm

I have to agree that I do see validity in having distinct counselling services for different types of trauma: rape / assault / PTSD etc.

What I disagree with is that being raped is inherently worse than any other form of assault.

There are instances where it's far worse e.g. most would rather be slapped than raped and there are others where it may not be (to use a non-violent assault as an example for a change): to be deliberately falsely accused of having abused a child could lead to someone being completely ostracized within their community, to having their marriage end, to not being allowed to see their children without the supervision of a social worker, to lose their job and to become the victim of regular actual or threatened assaults.

While rape is a horrible thing, there are worse things that one can endure and the "fate worse than death" scenario presented by many diminishes their cause greatly.

The Corinthian · 17-07-2015 3:38pm

jjC123 wrote: »

I'm suggesting that because rape is a crime that is usually perpetrated against women that the lack of understanding shown in such ridiculous wording as 'light rape' is coming from men.

And statements like that are typically perpetrated my misandrist fanatics who are so caught up in their own ideological reality that they will see any questioning of it as a heresy.

Basically, you've invalidate the opinions of others on the basis of gender. Because men can't get raped and we naturally cannot understand it. Well done.

The Corinthian · 17-07-2015 3:40pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I have to agree that I do see validity in having distinct counselling services for different types of trauma: rape / assault / PTSD etc.

No one's suggested it shouldn't. The question posed in the OP was "why rape gets so much attention vs other crimes against the person"? Don't get bogged down by other people's straw men.

Sleepy · 17-07-2015 3:42pm

jjC123 wrote: »

I'm suggesting that because rape is a crime that is usually perpetrated against women that the lack of understanding shown in such ridiculous wording as 'light rape' is coming from men.

And as I've already pointed out. The only uses of the phrase "light rape" in this thread were by yourself and raah!

jjC123 · 17-07-2015 3:45pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I have to agree that I do see validity in having distinct counselling services for different types of trauma: rape / assault / PTSD etc.

What I disagree with is that being raped is inherently worse than any other form of assault.

There are instances where it's far worse e.g. most would rather be slapped than raped and there are others where it may not be (to use a non-violent assault as an example for a change): to be deliberately falsely accused of having abused a child could lead to someone being completely ostracized within their community, to having their marriage end, to not being allowed to see their children without the supervision of a social worker, to lose their job and to become the victim of regular actual or threatened assaults.

While rape is a horrible thing, there are worse things that one can endure and the "fate worse than death" scenario presented by many diminishes their cause greatly.

But trying to compare violent, damaging, crimes is ridiculous. The effect that a crime has on someone, be it a rape, a stabbing or an acid attack is going to vary massively depending on the victim.

Would you prefer to be raped or shot? I reckon I'd say shot, someone else might say rape and a sensible person would say don't be a dope.

All victims deserve support. Duh. But different types of victims get different supports and supporting one in no way diminishes the needs of the other.

raah! · 17-07-2015 3:47pm

If you define a scale of severity, there is going to be descriptions on this scale of "lgiht-heavy", "severe-unsevere" etc. There is no difference between saying "light rape" and saying "there is a scale of severity". To say that rape always has to be prefaced with some term like "still horrible terrible" and then "but less bad on thsi scale" is ridiculous.

Banning the use of language like that will completely disable any discussion by saying that no thing can be worse than any other. Thankfully the idea that different traumas (rape or otherwise) cannot be compared is not one which is accepted outside of people trying to push a particular agenda

jjC123 · 17-07-2015 3:49pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And statements like that are typically perpetrated my misandrist fanatics who are so caught up in their own ideological reality that they will see any questioning of it as a heresy.

Basically, you've invalidate the opinions of others on the basis of gender. Because men can't get raped and we naturally cannot understand it. Well done.

I think you'll see from my first post that I fully accept that men can be rape victims.

Sleepy · 17-07-2015 3:52pm

If you define a scale of severity, there is going to be descriptions on this scale of "lgiht-heavy", "severe-unsevere" etc. There is no difference between saying "light rape" and saying "there is a scale of severity". To say that rape always has to be prefaced with some term like "still horrible terrible" and then "but less bad on thsi scale" is ridiculous.

That's a fair point, if you want to use insensitive language, there clearly is such a thing as a "lighter rape" and a "heavier rape". However, the only ones to use such language were you and jjC123 and that, as such, jjC123 using such language as an illustration of "the lack of understanding shown" by men to the topic of rape is rather disingenuous / a strawman argument.

But trying to compare violent, damaging, crimes is ridiculous.

Then why do different violent, damaging crimes attract different prison sentences?

jjC123 · 17-07-2015 4:05pm

Sleepy wrote: »

That's a fair point, if you want to use insensitive language, there clearly is such a thing as a "lighter rape" and a "heavier rape". However, the only ones to use such language were you and jjC123 and that, as such, jjC123 using such language as an illustration of "the lack of understanding shown" by men to the topic of rape is rather disingenuous / a strawman argument.

Then why do different violent, damaging crimes attract different prison sentences?

How does a judge decide on a sentence?
When considering what sentence to impose on you, the judge follows a two-step procedure:

Decide what the sentence should be in light of the seriousness of the offence.
Reduce that sentence in the light of any mitigating or excusing factors given on your behalf.
There are a number of important factors that a judge must have regard to, when sentencing you. It is a matter for your solicitor or barrister, on your behalf, to urge the judge to consider these factors and what weight or importance should be given to each.

When deciding which sentence to impose on you, the judge considers:

Whether or not you pleaded guilty to the offence
The facts of the offence - the circumstances in which the offence occurred
Whether there were any aggravating factors in relation to the offence - such as particularly violent or cruel behaviour
Your previous criminal record
Your character
Your age
Your family circumstances
Whether you are employed
Whether you are sorry for what you have done
Whether certain types of treatment may help or reform you
The impact of the offence on the victim
Any other relevant information about you (for example, if you are in bad health)

Source: citizensinformation.ie

I've bolded the impact of the offence on the victim because I think it further illustrated that there's no point in comparing crimes like rape and assault because the impact (psychologically anyway) will vary according to the victim.

In reference to 'light rape', yes, I agree some rapes are more 'severe' than others though I think the term 'light rape' is particularly bad but my main point was that I take issue with previous posters saying I'd take 'light rape', 'non-violent rape' etc over "insert horrible crime here".

Sleepy · 17-07-2015 4:14pm

Ok, so you take issue with people expressing the opinion that there are worse things to suffer than being raped? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

The very fact that the impact of different crimes on different victims (psychologically or otherwise) will be different would imply that the sentencing should be based on the circumstances of each individual case (along with all the other factors you've listed).

Yet we frequently hear calls for minimum sentencing (or the more rabble rousing "chop his balls off" / "chemical castration" stuff that comes up) whenever rape is discussed. It seems, to me at least, that many behave irrationally as soon as the word "rape" is mentioned. Though, in truth, I think most people behave irrationally as soon as sex of any kind is the topic at hand.

The Corinthian · 17-07-2015 4:18pm

jjC123 wrote: »

I think you'll see from my first post that I fully accept that men can be rape victims.

But from your subsequent post you also go on to suggest that men cannot understand rape. So is that just men need to be raped before they can understand it?

Or is that just people who bring up 'light' rape? That would be you and raah!, BTW.

The Corinthian · 17-07-2015 4:23pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Ok, so you take issue with people expressing the opinion that there are worse things to suffer than being raped? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

Think of it more as an article of faith than a rational position.

jjC123 · 17-07-2015 4:29pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

But from your subsequent post you also go on to suggest that men cannot understand rape. So is that just men need to be raped before they can understand it?

Or is that just people who bring up 'light' rape? That would be you and raah!, BTW.

I admit, the wording was somewhat sexist. And I in no way think that men cannot understand rape. But I do think women are more sensitive to it, because they've been taught to fear it (you could argue that men are taught to fear violence seeing as they're more often victims of it I suppose). A girl leaves a party the response from her friends is 'don't walk home alone, you might get raped'. A boy is told 'don't walk alone at night, you might be attacked.'

So when I see a post saying "I think I'd rather be raped ('light rape' or non violent rape or whatever wording you chose) than...." my immediate assumption would be that it comes from a man. Not because of malice but because they aren't conditioned to fear rape the way women are.

Aimead · 17-07-2015 4:39pm

I simply cannot wrap my head around someone claiming that rape, in all instances thereof, is worse than assault, in all instances thereof. To me that is crazy talk.

The people in my life who have experienced both and talked to me about it are my uncles, who suffered at the hands of the Christian Brothers. The got both buggered and battered. When I seen this thread I thought I’d ask them about it, and both are adamant that the beatings were far far worse than the buggering. I’m paraphrasing “When you got the belt or the bar it would sting like nettles for days after. One bad <snipped> busted my leg and I could hardly walk for weeks. When you’re pissing pain and can’t sleep for days you canna think of nothing else.”

I kinda knew what their answer was going to be, and given the severity of the assaults in their particular case their opinion shouldn’t really be controversial.

Others have already mentioned this theme but I think it bears repeating. If given the choice between getting forcibly raped but not seriously injured physically and being beaten into a vegetative state I would have to choose the former.

As to the answer to the OP’s question, I’ll reiterate similar sentiments to others but in a less diplomatic fashion. The answer is that there are opportunistic feckers who use the topic as both a tool for political ends and as a convenient stick to beat others with. You can see this in the US with the narrative of “campuses are rife with rape culture”. It really is the ultimate stick to beat your political opponents with. Whenever someone tries to speak sense in opposition you just accuse them of “promoting rape culture”. Tactics that ‘work’ tend to get used, and exploiting a topic like this (callous as it is) seems to be ‘working’ very well.

The Corinthian · 17-07-2015 4:42pm

jjC123 wrote: »

But I do think women are more sensitive to it, because they've been taught to fear it

Bollocks. Sorry, but bollocks. You decided to put down people's opinion on the basis of gender. Rationalizing that does not change that nor make your statement any less chauvinist.

As Sleepy pointed out, there seems to be a position by some whereby it is unacceptable to even question whether any other crime could (gods forbid) be worse than rape. The origins of this are likely patriarchal, but second wave feminism has been more than happy to carry the torch nonetheless. Basically, it's the politics of opportunism.

Long and the short of it, rape gets the lion's share the attention and, subsequently, resources and if you question this... well, you answered that yourself.

And there we have a response to the OP's question.

zeffabelli · 17-07-2015 4:43pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Ok, so you take issue with people expressing the opinion that there are worse things to suffer than being raped? I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

The very fact that the impact of different crimes on different victims (psychologically or otherwise) will be different would imply that the sentencing should be based on the circumstances of each individual case (along with all the other factors you've listed).

Yet we frequently hear calls for minimum sentencing (or the more rabble rousing "chop his balls off" / "chemical castration" stuff that comes up) whenever rape is discussed. It seems, to me at least, that many behave irrationally as soon as the word "rape" is mentioned. Though, in truth, I think most people behave irrationally as soon as sex of any kind is the topic at hand.

People are completely irrational about it.

I dared suggest once that even if someone makes a mistake once that does not make them a "rapist." Not of they didn't force themselves the other gazillion times they had sex and there was one time they did something cruel or stupid.

I also met at a party a very high profile young man who had an accusation and a trial where he was found not guilty. I made a very conscious choice to treat him like any other person because the jury has spoken and that's that and I don't know what really happened.and that's how he should be treated. What else can you do?

But the shadow of rapist follows him, public lust to demonise. It's like they're popping out of the trees.

jjC123 · 17-07-2015 5:00pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Bollocks. Sorry, but bollocks. You decided to put down people's opinion on the basis of gender. Rationalizing that does not change that nor make your statement any less chauvinist.

As Sleepy pointed out, there seems to be a position by some whereby it is unacceptable to even question whether any other crime could (gods forbid) be worse than rape. The origins of this are likely patriarchal, but second wave feminism has been more than happy to carry the torch nonetheless. Basically, it's the politics of opportunism.

Long and the short of it, rape gets the lion's share the attention and, subsequently, resources and if you question this... well, you answered that yourself.

And there we have a response to the OP's question.

But I never questioned that rape gets the lions share of media attention and resources? It does. But I mentioned multiple times that this isn't anything to do with rape being "worse" than a violent crime. I'll say it again for clarification, I don't think that rape is worse than violent assault. I think it's a different crime, with a different psychology with different impacts on different victims.

AGAIN, the Rape Crisis Centre is so high profile because a)Rape is a common crime b)it goes unreported and encouraging victims to seek help is good
and c) changing attitudes to rape is important. None of this implies that rape is worse than violent crime.

Also, the Rape Crisis Centres government funding was recently cut resulting in more media coverage.

Sleepy · 17-07-2015 5:11pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Think of it more as an article of faith than a rational position.

Ah, faith, no wonder I'm confused by it

Aimead · 17-07-2015 6:43pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Bollocks. Sorry, but bollocks.

I’m not defending the other poster, but I do think they have a point.

Let me try to illustrate that point by using a less controversial topic as an analogy. My da taught me a bit of mechanicing when I was younger. So if my car has a minor problem I can generally do a decent job. Door window gone astray? I can open the compartment up and bent the holders into shape to fix it. Flat tyre? I can whip out the jack and change it. In my area there is a good chance that I’m the only one who would even attempt those minor fixes. When people I know get a flat tyre they’ll either ring a garage or otherwise get a man to do it. To me that is insane. There seems as if there is a collective ‘learned helplessness’.

To a large extent how we perceive certain situations is learned. What I think the other poster was getting at (and expressing it poorly) is that there is a culture that seems to perpetuate the idea that getting raped is in some way ‘life-ending’, and that being a victim is lifelong. Make no mistake about it, having your body used in a manner against your will is a heinous thing. But this idea that the experience will forever prevent you from being whole is both wrong and unhelpful.

zeffabelli · 19-07-2015 9:03pm

Rape is a charged word that sets off alarms and panic.

To the extent in North America they call it canola oil, not rapeseed oil, due to the negative connotations.

Yet beheadings are now a TV and Internet pastime. No one blinks at the violence.

The Corinthian · 19-08-2015 9:41am

jjC123 wrote: »

AGAIN, the Rape Crisis Centre is so high profile because a)Rape is a common crime b)it goes unreported and encouraging victims to seek help is good
and c) changing attitudes to rape is important. None of this implies that rape is worse than violent crime.

Yet a)violent assault a common crime b)it goes unreported and encouraging victims to seek help is good
and c) changing attitudes to violent assault is important.

Yet it gets a fraction of the attention and funding of rape and this is what implies that rape is worse than violent crime. This is the topic of the thread, after all and so far you've failed to suggest why other than the implication that rape is indeed more worthy of our attention than violent assault.

Aimead wrote: »

What I think the other poster was getting at (and expressing it poorly) is that there is a culture that seems to perpetuate the idea that getting raped is in some way ‘life-ending’, and that being a victim is lifelong.

TBH, they're not suggesting such a culture exists, but that it is justified.

Aimead · 19-08-2015 5:09pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, they're not suggesting such a culture exists, but that it is justified.

In trying to give the most charitable interpretation to their words I may have misread them then. Sorry about that.

spurious · 19-08-2015 5:28pm

I think the high percentage of people raped by someone already known to them exacerbates its effect. It's not only a physical violation, it's a psychological and emotional kick in the chops too.

The Corinthian · 19-08-2015 6:02pm

wefixtexas wrote: »

Rape is the most underreported crime in America.

I've always wondered about this claim. How do they know this? Do they compare it against other forms of underreported crime? How do they collect their data? And why is it that groups who's funding depends on rape being the most underreported crime tend to be the one's to make this claim.

zeffabelli · 20-08-2015 8:21am

spurious wrote: »

I think the high percentage of people raped by someone already known to them exacerbates its effect. It's not only a physical violation, it's a psychological and emotional kick in the chops too.

There are a couple of things in addition to knowing the person who raped you.

The justice system, is based on beyond reasonable doubt. What this means is its better to have 10 guilty men free, than one innocent locked up. I agree with this principle, though it has its down side, it's better than the alternative.

The burdens of proof make taking a rape charge all the way, a risk one is unlikely to go for, given that the victim will be the primary witness.... This as well as rape kits, medical evidence and cross examinations a daunting prospect in the contexts of reasonable doubts and burdens of proof.

We have here also the tensions that exists between private reality of a counselling couch and public consensual reality of a courtroom.

Aimead · 20-08-2015 1:49pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

We have here also the tensions that exists between private reality of a counselling couch and public consensual reality of a courtroom.

I think this has some really interesting, and also disturbing, aspects to it.

There was a raft of lawsuits in the US against therapists accusing them of instilling memories of abuse that were not true. Trying to quantify which proportion of such claims are true is probably impossible, but in some of those lawsuits there was credible evidence presented that seemed to show that some recovered memories were of events that couldn’t have happened.

Therapy is often built on offering a caring supporting and non-judgemental environment, but this seems to run the risk of separating a person from reality. Things that a patient gets incorrect are never challenged, and maybe in some cases the act of trying to give support helps to reinforce false recollections.

If therapy can, even in a small minority of cases, instil false memories due to the lack of verification then it raises the question of whether aspects of therapy are harmful within the context of helping people connect with the real world. I don’t have any substantive answers here, and I suppose my views have been strongly informed by a rejection of the postmodernism ‘everyone is special’ ‘everyone is right’ crap. I certainly think there a plenty of cases where leeway and support are the best approach, but I do wonder if there are times when that has adverse side-effects.

zeffabelli · 20-08-2015 4:26pm

Aimead wrote: »

I think this has some really interesting, and also disturbing, aspects to it.

There was a raft of lawsuits in the US against therapists accusing them of instilling memories of abuse that were not true. Trying to quantify which proportion of such claims are true is probably impossible, but in some of those lawsuits there was credible evidence presented that seemed to show that some recovered memories were of events that couldn’t have happened.

Therapy is often built on offering a caring supporting and non-judgemental environment, but this seems to run the risk of separating a person from reality. Things that a patient gets incorrect are never challenged, and maybe in some cases the act of trying to give support helps to reinforce false recollections.

If therapy can, even in a small minority of cases, instil false memories due to the lack of verification then it raises the question of whether aspects of therapy are harmful within the context of helping people connect with the real world. I don’t have any substantive answers here, and I suppose my views have been strongly informed by a rejection of the postmodernism ‘everyone is special’ ‘everyone is right’ crap. I certainly think there a plenty of cases where leeway and support are the best approach, but I do wonder if there are times when that has adverse side-effects.

Those are known as the memory wars. A number of lives were ruined.

Freudians came under a lot of attack after those.

Memory is fluid and fickle and easy to construct and re interpret.

It's not seeing is believing, but believing is seeing.

The therapeutic process where does it belong in a legal system.

You gave Dr Phil and his perception is reality..... Well .... Isn't that only part of the story?

Some therapy can be extremely harmful.... Some can be very healing...,,I think it's like Montessori teaching.... Depends on whose doing it.

Problem is when it infiltrates legislation and courtrooms.

NI24 · 21-08-2015 8:38am

This statement

The Corinthian wrote: »

I agree and am not in any way trivializing rape

contradicts this statement

The Corinthian wrote: »

I would not want to suffer rape or what he went through (and still does), but given the choice, I'd rather have both my eyes and pick rape, thank you.

You just placed rape below physical assault and, by default, trivialized it.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unfortunately, the only explanation for this is, in a word, politics.

Biased assumption and nothing more.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unless, someone would care to proffer another reason?

And what would be the point? You've repeatedly ignored/dismissed others' opinions because it doesn't fit your confirmation bias and aren't really interested in a debate, but rather, an echo chamber.

The Corinthian wrote: »

No one is suggesting that rape is not a heinous act, but that the 'fate worse than death' will always be worse of any other possible act, no matter how brutal, no matter what the physical or psychological consequences are, just doesn't wash.

Who said the fate would be worse than death? Other than yourself of course.

NI24 · 21-08-2015 8:38am

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Unlike other physical assaults which are a violation of our person, rape is a violation of our sexual person which in general is regarded as being on an even more intimate, personal level than the rest of our bodies or lives.

Others have said this multiple times yet it is repeatedly trivialized/dismissed/ignored with speculation and nothing more.

NI24 · 21-08-2015 8:38am

zeffabelli wrote: »

Do you have any studies to back this up?

Are you seriously claiming that a rape victim has suffered more trauma than a soldier in war time?

Or watching a family member get sliced with a machete?

How do you have any certainty of these speculative claims of your?

You're completely confused. Rape is considered worse than physical assault in both law and society so the burden of proof is on you. How do you have any certainty of these speculative claims of yours that rape is not worse than other types of physical assault? Other than gossip, conjecture, and speculation, that is.

Rape vs Other Injuries

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