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Sentencing in Ireland.

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2

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    #32
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    VisibleGorilla wrote: »
    That is just as extreme as 3 strikes.....

    **** it so. Nice cup of tea and a chat with a social worker instead.


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    #33
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,954 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Two words. Prison space.

    Until this is sorted we'll have more of the same, building new prisons is not sexy nor is it a vote-getter.


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    #34
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    VisibleGorilla wrote: »
    Your last point pretty much goes against all the others?


    How so? Prision is supposed to punish individuals, but it is also there to try and rehabilitate them, so that when they are released they won't revert to crime. At the moment it doesn't seem to be working with the amount of people getting released early and then commiting more crimes after they have been released.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why would a prisoner engage in rehabilitation if there was no prospect of getting out early for good behaviour? There is no incentive.

    If you are sentenced to 20 years then that is what somebody should serve. If they have a problem with that then they should have thought about that before commiting the crime. Irish sentencing is a joke with people who have committed serious offences getting released early due to "good behaviour". Well, if they were good on the outside they wouldn't be in jail.

    The incentive would be that they are released after their time has been completed. If they commit a crime in jail such as assaulting a prison officer or fellow inmate, then they should have time added on to their sentence. I don't believe rapists, murderers and those with multiple convictions should have their time reduced due to good behaviour.


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    #35
    VisibleGorilla
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭VisibleGorilla


    Eutow wrote: »
    How so? Prision is supposed to punish individuals, but it is also there to try and rehabilitate them, so that when they are released they won't revert to crime. At the moment it doesn't seem to be working with the amount of people getting released early and then commiting more crimes after they have been released.
    You think that

    -no early release for good behaviour,
    -No getting out for Christmas and christenings and
    -doing every single day of your sentence
    -Tougher bail.Previous = no bail allowed.
    - Consective sentencing.
    - Life means life until the day you die.

    Are indicative of rehabilitation?


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    #36
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    VisibleGorilla wrote: »
    You think that

    -no early release for good behaviour,
    -No getting out for Christmas and christenings and
    -doing every single day of your sentence
    -Tougher bail.Previous = no bail allowed.
    - Consective sentencing.
    - Life means life until the day you die.

    Are indicative of rehabilitation?

    Nah, obviously repeat convictions stretching into the double or triple digits with many offenses committed while out on bail/temporary/early release are indicative of rehabilitation.


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    #37
    tom_k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭tom_k


    Looking to the American system is not the answer in our country IMO.

    I believe crimes which involve the violation of the home should carry stiff mandatory sentences.

    Unprovoked attacks, crimes against the elderly and the young should also carry minimum sentences.

    Repeat offenders should face a minimum of 5 years if the conviction tally exceeds ten offences.

    Remission of jail time should only be given where detainees engage in education/retraining programmes, drug/alcohol rehab programs and/or anger management counselling services during and after a sentence in a real and meaningful way.

    Those involved in financial crimes where public safety isn't directly threatened by the convicted person should receive suspended custodial sentences but with punitive fines, for example in the case of the garlic importer make his fine in the region of double what he gained in the commission of the crime. An enforcement order or similar attached to earnings could be used to ensure the payment of the entire amount over time.

    In the odd case where we hear that an offender is considered to be at high risk of reoffending upon release then a lifetime monitoring system should be employed.

    Finally, I believe that too much emphasis is placed on the tough lives that criminals have endured prior to court appearances. This emphasis should be refocused on the victims of crime.


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    #38
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    VisibleGorilla wrote: »
    You think that

    -no early release for good behaviour,
    -No getting out for Christmas and christenings and
    -doing every single day of your sentence
    -Tougher bail.Previous = no bail allowed.
    - Consective sentencing.
    - Life means life until the day you die.

    Are indicative of rehabilitation?


    You think suspended sentences, minimal jail time, easy bail conditions are working. Obviously the serving time until the day you die would be for extreme cases, some would prefer capital punishment which I don't agree with. Rehab for those that will be released eventually. Why should some scumbag that raped somebody, that killed somebody in cold blood or someone with multiple convictions get released early for good behaviour, or for Christmas? If they were good they wouldn't have committed the crime they were jailed for. Tough sh!t if they miss these events.


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    moc moc a moc wrote: »
    Mandatory sentences to live in somewhere like Darndale for any judge who gives out more than three suspended "sentences". The problem will swiftly solve itself.

    But that's just silly stuff. Very very silly.

    Of course suspended sentences are appropriate in a wide range of cases, a classic one where it is often used is cultivation of cannabis with a large number of plants but little equipment by someone who pleads guilty.


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    #40
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,431 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Egginacup wrote: »
    The sentencing in the US is like something crossed between Alice-in-wonderland and Orwell. It is sick and cretinous and completely bereft of logic. I read about one guy who was at a house party. Somebody asked to borrow his car to go on a beer run. He gave him the keys and went back to his partying. The guy who borrowed the car got into some kind of altercation at the convenience store and somebody was killed. Car owner was done for accessory to murder and banged up for life.

    And there are people who actually say "yeah well it's his fault for letting the guy borrow his car!"

    It's one thing to driving a guy to the scene whereby you know he's going to commit a crime. That at least is accessory.

    Do you have a link to that case? I'm not saying you're lying or anything, I'd just like to read it. It seems crazy and extremely unfair. I find it hard to believe.
    But then again I find the story I told in the OP hard to believe too, but it's true.


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    #41
    Eutow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    El Guapo! I found it strange myself so I googled it and got this:


    http://www.thenation.com/article/178984/why-florida-man-facing-life-prison-lending-out-his-car-and-going-sleep

    Something to do with the Felony Rule/Law. That is just a plain stupid law.


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    #42
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,431 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Eutow wrote: »
    El Guapo! I found it strange myself so I googled it and got this:


    http://www.thenation.com/article/178984/why-florida-man-facing-life-prison-lending-out-his-car-and-going-sleep

    Something to do with the Felony Rule/Law. That is just a plain stupid law.

    Wow. That is absolutely bananas.


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    #43
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Mint Aero wrote: »
    We badly need a three strikes rule in this country.

    Or a kind of compound sentencing. Firstly determine minimum sentences for crimes - say a burglary is a minimum 3 years sentence, then your second conviction for that is an automatic doubling of that minimum sentence, your third would see you serving a minimum of 9 years and so on. And not suspended either.

    I do see that reductions for good behaviour work, but instead of you getting an automatic halving of the sentence for being a good prisoner and sitting playing your playstation all day that it gets awarded for genuine rehabilitation participation.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Neyite wrote: »
    Or a kind of compound sentencing. Firstly determine minimum sentences for crimes - say a burglary is a minimum 3 years sentence, then your second conviction for that is an automatic doubling of that minimum sentence, your third would see you serving a minimum of 9 years and so on. And not suspended either.

    I do see that reductions for good behaviour work, but instead of you getting an automatic halving of the sentence for being a good prisoner and sitting playing your playstation all day that it gets awarded for genuine rehabilitation participation.

    I'd just be out now, but on the other hand I'd never steal apples again.


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    #45
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    RonanP77 wrote:
    Only if you use these new fancy methods, a length of rope is cheap enough.

    Especially if you get it in the lidl bargain alert threads


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    #46
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,461 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Two words. Prison space.

    Until this is sorted we'll have more of the same, building new prisons is not sexy nor is it a vote-getter.

    Honestly it would get my vote.


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    #47
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,954 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Agent Coulson wrote: »
    Honestly it would get my vote.

    Well, you're more enlightened than many of the chattering classes who harp on about harsher sentences when you've got nowhere to put people in the first place.


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    #48
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    End concurrent sentencing

    Electronic ankle tags for those on bail for violent offenses or burglary

    Chain gangs for repeat offenders

    Increase spending on training and education for prisoners


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    #49
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Yes to stiffer sentences and respective guidelines.

    Yes to consecutive sentencing.

    Yes to re-writing legislation where necessary.

    No to mandatory minimum sentencing.


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    #50
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    osarusan wrote: »

    No to mandatory minimum sentencing.

    Why not?


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    #51
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Neyite wrote: »
    Why not?
    Because, inevitably, somebody gets punished way too harshly.


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    #52
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    osarusan wrote: »
    Because, inevitably, somebody gets punished way too harshly.

    Fair point. I can understand a once off mistake with mitigating factors might need to be taken into account. What about a minimum sentence on a second or subsequent conviction for the same crime? So for instance burglary #1, at discretion of Judge, #2, mandatory sentence, #3 double mandatory sentence, #3 beings a treble mandatory sentence and so on?


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    #53
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    We need mandatory minimum sentencing for crimes such as assault and "anti-social behaviour" (IE: petty but violent crime).

    The biggest issue in this country at the moment is that the Gardai work their asses off to disrupt gangland organisations and when they finally manage to catch a few, the courts let them go. IMO, there should be mandatory minimum sentencing where X number of previous convictions is exceeded along the same line of offence - how often do you hear absolute BS like "John Doe, who has 67 previous convictions for assault and robbery, was given a suspended sentence for his role in the burglary" etc?


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    #54
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Neyite wrote: »
    Fair point. I can understand a once off mistake with mitigating factors might need to be taken into account. What about a minimum sentence on a second or subsequent conviction for the same crime? So for instance burglary #1, at discretion of Judge, #2, mandatory sentence, #3 double mandatory sentence, #3 beings a treble mandatory sentence and so on?

    I'm never in favour of removing discretion from judges.

    If the problem is judges with their heads up their arses, the solution is to remove their heads from their arses, not remove discretion from them.


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    #55
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    how often do you hear absolute BS like "John Doe, who has 67 previous convictions for assault and robbery, was given a suspended sentence for his role in the burglary" etc?

    Nah it's usually closer to: "John Doe, who has 67 previous convictions for assault and robbery, was given a 9 year sentence with the final 2 years suspended for his role in the killing"


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    #56
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,348 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Why don't we look at the best prison systems in the world and follow their lead?

    Norway has one of the lowest prison populations in the world, and one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US and low rates of crime.

    The 'lock em up and throw away the key' system clearly doesn't work. It's been tried over and over again.

    If we focus prisons on rehabilitating prisoners instead of punishment and exacting revenge, then society as a whole will be much better off.


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    #57
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Why don't we look at the best prison systems in the world and follow their lead?

    Norway has one of the lowest prison populations in the world, and one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world

    The 'lock em up and throw away the key' system clearly doesn't work. It's been tried over and over again.

    If we focus prisons on rehabilitating prisoners instead of punishment and exacting revenge, then society as a whole will be much better off.

    You are twice as likely to be raped in Norway then Ireland.


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    #58
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Who's going to pay for all these lovely new prisons?


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    #59
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The money should go into prevention.

    We know retributive justice does not work, it creates worse criminality...prison is like ivy league crime school, and it costs a fortune.


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    #60
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The money should go into prevention.

    We know retributive justice does not work, it creates worse criminality...prison is like ivy league crime school, and it costs a fortune.

    Prison and the justice system should be about punishment first and foremost regardless of the cost. An element of revenge is necessary for the victims of crime.


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    #61
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    zeffabelli wrote: »

    We know retributive justice does not work, it creates worse criminality

    This point keeps coming up in these arguments and it has never convinced me.

    How do we "know" this?


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