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National Club Championship 2015

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  • 23-04-2015 1:36pm
    #1
    Grunfelder
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭


    NCC coming up this weekend. Is there or has there ever been access to the results over the weekend or any live games? Would be nice to see at least the top boards live.

    Looking back over recent years there does not seem to be many teams involved...maybe due to the average rating limit, could be interesting to propose the inclusion of another club tournament for teams under 1650 on the same weekend.
    Any thoughts on NCC?
    Tagged:


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    #2
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Before the NCC was only reserved for Champions of the regional leagues who met and fought it out for the title of Irish club champions. However with Ulster not sending any representative and Connaught not really having a league to speak of, the format was changed a few years ago to an open one. The thinking behind limiting the average team rating to over 1600 was more to limit the number of teams playing than anything else. Given that the competition is run over only 4 rounds having 2 or 3 strong teams with a whole bunch of weaker teams could deliver a skewed result more dependant on the luck of the pairings than anything else.

    The idea of having a separate competition for lower rated teams has some merit. I would be in favour of scrapping the regional leagues altogether and running a national league with a couple of divisions and matches played on a number of weekends at a central location (ala the 4NCL in the UK). That would be the fairest way of deciding the National Club Champions. I think a lot of regional clubs might be in favour of this but unlikely to ever happen as Dublin clubs (who in fairness make up the bulk of ICU membership) wouldnt want it.

    NCC hasnt been very well supported in recent years but if this years event is even half as exciting as last years it should be a good one.


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    #3
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    RQ_ennis_chess wrote: »
    I would be in favour of scrapping the regional leagues altogether and running a national league with a couple of divisions and matches played on a number of weekends at a central location (ala the 4NCL in the UK). That would be the fairest way of deciding the National Club Champions. I think a lot of regional clubs might be in favour of this but unlikely to ever happen as Dublin clubs (who in fairness make up the bulk of ICU membership) wouldnt want it.
    It's an interesting idea. Actually, there's little reason we couldn't run it in parallel with the Leinster leagues, which are almost exclusively a weekday evening competition. It might be tricky to cater for the regional Leinster clubs if too many weekends were in use*, but they could be willing to enter the national league instead. It'd get around the Dublin clubs blocking the idea (which, being a member of such a club, is a reaction I could understand).

    *For those unfamiliar with them, the 'country' clubs in the Leinster leagues play on Saturday afternoons to facilitate travel.


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    #4
    eclipsechaser
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    http://www.icu.ie/


    The site says the NCC is cancelled but I'm hearing that this isn't the case.


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    #5
    eclipsechaser
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    eclipsechaser wrote: »
    http://www.icu.ie/
    The site says the NCC is cancelled but I'm hearing that this isn't the case.



    The website has just been updated to say that it's back on again. Quite interesting language from the ICU. Hard to know what is happening...


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    #6
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Sounds like the usual waffle to me....


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    #7
    brilliantboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    RQ_ennis_chess wrote: »
    Sounds like the usual waffle to me....

    Except it's official ICU endorsed waffle now


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    #8
    Pete Morriss
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭Pete Morriss


    I see that amongst the waffle there is:

    "The rule-set for the National Club Championships will now be reviewed and changed to ensure this issue never arises in the future."

    The rules for the NCC that have been in place since 2012 are very clear: it is just that the members of the current ICU Executive seem to have been too lazy to read them. So don't blame the rules; the best way of ensuring that "this issue never arises in the future" is to have an executive that has a basic minimum level of competence. Then there won't be tournaments cancelled less than 48 hours before they are due to start, and then resuscitated a few hours later ...

    Meanwhile, good luck to all who are playing.


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    #9
    Ciaran
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭Ciaran


    What rules were being broken? The statements on the website aren't too clear.


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    #10
    brilliantboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    Ciaran wrote: »
    What rules were being broken? The statements on the website aren't too clear.

    I think the issue, at least superficially, is that the NCC is supposed to be held in Leinster every second year. It was held in Ballinasloe last year.


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    #11
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    eclipsechaser wrote: »
    http://www.icu.ie/


    The site says the NCC is cancelled but I'm hearing that one person put this up on the website off their own bat. Incredible one way or another...

    *mod snip*

    But I never believed it for a moment. Suppose we should be careful what we actually end up believing and even more careful about writing about certain things?


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    #12
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    Ciaran wrote: »
    What rules were being broken? The statements on the website aren't too clear.

    I have been given to understand that the question was not what rules were being broken so much as what rules where not being broken.

    But apparently if anybody has a read of the rules for the NCC it soon becomes obvious the depth of the problem. And when the ICU indicated they might have to do something about this and even consider taking away the stamp or seal of approval to run this and down grade the tournament to just a fide rated team tournament the politics took over?


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    #13
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    Pete Morriss wrote: »
    I see that amongst the waffle there is:

    "The rule-set for the National Club Championships will now be reviewed and changed to ensure this issue never arises in the future."

    The rules for the NCC that have been in place since 2012 are very clear: it is just that the members of the current ICU Executive seem to have been too lazy to read them.

    ..

    Meanwhile, good luck to all who are playing.

    Fair to say you were always above waffling yourself of course. I agree that the statement about

    "The rule-set for the National Club Championships will now be reviewed and changed to ensure this issue never arises in the future."

    is misdirection and a total deflection from the key point. The rules are and were fine. it was the implementation of them that was the issue. Very wrong and unfair to say that

    "it is just that the members of the current ICU Executive seem to have been too lazy to read them. "

    We don't know that and can hardly know that. We can speculate till the cows come home but we don't know and have no evidence to suggest this assertion is true. However we can say that the ICU made a total balls of things by giving this event to Ennis CC ( I think you might have an association with them or have played for them a few times?) as it is the organizers who have made such an almighty mess of this event and have broke or ignored rule after rule.

    Again I suspect that if we just read the rules for the event and then look at some information that is in the public domain, then from that alone we could see a host of problems.

    For example I checked to see if there is, or ever was, a "club" called Loyola but not a sausage! Totally made up team/club so how is that the fault of the ICU who, when they first learn about this and many other things, just days before the event- as I understand might have been the case- and then try to do something about it and they are somehow to blame. Explain that to me please?


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    #14
    Pete Morriss
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭Pete Morriss


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    And when the ICU indicated they might have to do something about this and even consider taking away the stamp or seal of approval to run this ... QUOTE]

    Mustafa Chess: I suggest that you read the NCC rules before posting. They say at the start, quite clearly:

    "It [the NCC] will be run by the Irish Chess Union's tournament director; or, if that is not possible, the chairperson of the ICU has the responsibility to ensure the event is held."

    It is not clear why it was not possible for the ICU tournament director to carry out this part of his duties, unlike his predecessors. But if he could not do it, then responsibility reverts to the ICU Chairperson. So the ICU Chairperson has to bear the responsibility for the event taking place in Ennis when the rules quite clearly require it to be in Leinster this year. This is not some private event to which the ICU gives a seal of approval, or not, as Mustafa Chess implies; it is one of only two events each year (the other is the Irish Senior championship) which are the ICU's responsibility.

    [Edit] This was sent before I read Mustafa Chess's reply. I repeat: ensuring that this tournament is run in accordance with the rules is the ICU's responsibility.


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    #15
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    Pete Morriss wrote: »
    So don't blame the rules; the best way of ensuring that "this issue never arises in the future" is to have an executive that has a basic minimum level of competence.

    Then there won't be tournaments cancelled less than 48 hours before they are due to start, and then resuscitated a few hours later ...

    Meanwhile, good luck to all who are playing.

    I agree again that the rules are not to blame but it was the organizers who broke the rules - your guys unless I am mistaken - (after the ICU broke their own rules about it being held in Leinster , true enough) and how can you blame the ICU for multiple screw ups by the organizers, who also seemed to have done so little with promoting or selling the event. Seems odd too that there has not been much, if anything, about the event on what is supposed to the website or blog of the Ennis CC.

    The issue of competence with this committee, might surely be said to be that upon discovering so many breaches of the rules they did not stick to their guns and downgrade the event to be held to being a fide rated team weekend event and hold the actual proper NCC at a later date in a proper manner as indicated in their first statement?

    Now it is a free for all and the foreign player flying in to play for Ennis on top board (The host team) is allowed to despite clearly being ineligible?

    How is that right. They waited until five days before the event, when they are obliged to have all players being members at least seven days, before the event and now everyone turns a blind eye?

    While we can surely agree that there is indeed incompetence or worse with this executive we should try harder to be fair and accurate about the reasons for concluding this.


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    #16
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    I agree again that the rules are not to blame but it was the organizers who broke the rules - your guys unless I am mistaken - (after the ICU broke their own rules about it being held in Leinster , true enough) and how can you blame the ICU for multiple screw ups by the organizers, who also seemed to have done so little with promoting or selling the event. Seems odd too that there has not been much, if anything, about the event on what is supposed to the website or blog of the Ennis CC.

    The issue of competence with this committee, might surely be said to be that upon discovering so many breaches of the rules they did not stick to their guns and downgrade the event to be held to being a fide rated team weekend event and hold the actual proper NCC at a later date in a proper manner as indicated in their first statement?

    Now it is a free for all and the foreign player flying in to play for Ennis on top board (The host team) is allowed to despite clearly being ineligible?

    How is that right. They waited until five days before the event, when they are obliged to have all players being members at least seven days, before the event and now everyone turns a blind eye?

    While we can surely agree that there is indeed incompetence or worse with this executive we should try harder to be fair and accurate about the reasons for concluding this.

    As Pete said you really do need to read the rules of the NCC. You are looking more and more ridiculous with each post.


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    #17
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    Pete Morriss wrote: »
    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    And when the ICU indicated they might have to do something about this and even consider taking away the stamp or seal of approval to run this ... QUOTE]

    Mustafa Chess: I suggest that you read the NCC rules before posting. They say at the start, quite clearly:

    "It [the NCC] will be run by the Irish Chess Union's tournament director; or, if that is not possible, the chairperson of the ICU has the responsibility to ensure the event is held."

    It is not clear why it was not possible for the ICU tournament director to carry out this part of his duties, unlike his predecessors. But if he could not do it, then responsibility reverts to the ICU Chairperson. So the ICU Chairperson has to bear the responsibility for the event taking place in Ennis when the rules quite clearly require it to be in Leinster this year. This is not some private event to which the ICU gives a seal of approval, or not, as Mustafa Chess implies; it is one of only two events each year (the other is the Irish Senior championship) which are the ICU's responsibility.

    I suggest back that I have read these rules and nothing I wrote indicates otherwise. I conceded that the ICU did make a balls of things by allowing Ennis run the event after Ennis apparently asked to run the event.

    I have no idea, insight or knowledge of why the ICU tournament director or as you point out the ICU chairman did not take it upon themselves to do this event. Maybe they are fishing this weekend or like the ICU tournament director last year, just away, or not available for that weekend ( I trust I am not badly informed about that point?)

    But after they made this bad choice (giving it to Ennis CC) they also overlooked or ignored ( I don't know which) the rule about the event being held in Leinster.

    I agree that was incompetence or bad form alright, but while the ICU through the Chairman or Tournament director can take blame for the event taking place in Ennis they can hardly be blamed for the many wrongs things done by Ennis. I seen elsewhere today that even after a week from the deadline they were trying to cobble together another sixth team when that is clearly yet another sign of disregard and or indifference of the rules. Or could you tell me if you think Ennis should be allowed disregard the rules as they have done. Should their board one player be allowed to play (he is innocent in all this of course) despite not being eligible according to the rules that everybody else had to abide by. Is it not even more incumbent upon the hosts to make sure they are complying with the rule the most?


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    #18
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    RQ_ennis_chess wrote: »
    As Pete said you really do need to read the rules of the NCC. You are looking more and more ridiculous with each post.

    But not even close to as mad as yourself Mr RQ. You don't seem to like the truth much?

    Are you going to explain why it is ok to disregard so many rules. Or is that how you think things should be done? Make it up as you go along.


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    #19
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    eclipsechaser wrote: »
    The website has just been updated to say that it's back on again. Quite interesting language from the ICU/ individual poster. Hard to know what is happening...

    Not so hard if you can read and know where to find the NCC rules. Pretty clear then that there are countless examples of disregard for the rules *mod snip* or do we ask questions of ourselves and how we might make the hard and tough choice to confront things and try make them better? Or perhaps turn a blind eye and hope things go away.


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    #20
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    But not even close to as mad as yourself Mr RQ. You don't seem to like the truth much?

    Are you going to explain why it is ok to disregard so many rules. Or is that how you think things should be done? Make it up as you go along.

    Ah the usual resort to ad hominems - last refuge of a scoundrel. You will end up getting yourself banned again if you keep that up.

    You still havent explained what rules you think were broken. It might be helpful if you did. A player who has played in previous NCC s is eligible to play for that club again. Re getting players registered with ICU, the captain tried to do that a number of times but the ICU site was down for quite a while so online registration not possible. The ICU chairman has been aware for weeks that the event would be held in Ennis despite being Leinsters turn to do so and seems to have given it his seal of approval. Maybe it was something to do with Ennis being willing to host the event at very little cost to the ICU. I didnt see the ICU exactly getting knocked over with offers to host the event so they should probably be thanking Ennis for hosting it rather than posting waffle.


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    #21
    brilliantboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    Now it is a free for all and the foreign player flying in to play for Ennis on top board (The host team) is allowed to despite clearly being ineligible?

    How is that right. They waited until five days before the event, when they are obliged to have all players being members at least seven days, before the event and now everyone turns a blind eye?

    http://www.icu.ie/icu/ncc_rules wrote:
    17. All players must be members of the club they are representing. For the purposes of these rules, in order to be considered a member of the club, a player must satisfy at least one of the following conditions (or an equivalent at the discretion of the arbiter):
    a. He/she has played for the club in at least two previous National Club Championships.
    b. He/she has played for the club in a provincial league at least three times in the current season.
    c. He/she lives or works within the local area of the club.

    Petr Neuman is a long time Ennis player no? I would assume he's played in two previous NCCs. I know for a fact he played in 2012.
    If your bugbear is about the 7 days thing then that's a little bit petty in my opinion.

    I do agree that this new club arising out of nowhere is somewhat curious though.


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    #22
    eclipsechaser
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    *mod snip*

    But I never believed it for a moment. Suppose we should be careful what we actually end up believing and even more careful about writing about certain things?


    Can you clear it up then? Were the cancellation and the un-cancellation notices both decided by the committee? I was told the notice had been put up by one person and that the NCC was never actually cancelled. I hope that's not true and I'm very happy to hear otherwise.

    I've never played in it but as a spectator and committee member, the competition always seems mired in controversy. I think you're right in saying the ICU should look at the rules and decide what they want from the tournament in future.

    Thanks for the cheap dig :)


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    #23
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,165 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Mod note: Please attack the post and not the poster, any personal attacks by any poster will result in bans. Thanks guys.


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    #24
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Of course Petr Neuman is a long time Ennis player, brilliantboy. He has played for us multiple times in both the NCC and ECC and therefore would be eligible to play in this years NCC.
    I wasnt involved in taking entries but as far as I understand it Loyola are in effect Gonzaga 2 under a different name. Adare did the same thing a few years ago and there was no outcry then. Its probably not ideal but its also not against the rules.
    You will probably have mustafa chess reply with a load of waffle again because thats the kind of person he is and wont admit he is wrong.


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    #25
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    eclipsechaser wrote: »
    Can you clear it up then? Were the cancellation and the un-cancellation notices both decided by the committee? I was told the notice had been put up by one person and that the NCC was never actually cancelled. I hope that's not true and I'm very happy to hear otherwise.

    I've never played in it but as a spectator and committee member, the competition always seems mired in controversy. I think you're right in saying the ICU should look at the rules and decide what they want from the tournament in future.

    Thanks for the cheap dig :)

    Cheap shot was the very least you deserve for your even cheaper dig.

    You are misinformed which seems to be a signature feature on this thread and a few others. Some sources mislead, misrepresent and lie! If you can't see and understand the various rule violations that are in the open, leaving aside the ones behind the scenes then there is little hope you are minded to actually get the insights about what is going on before you.

    Simple example, read the rules, look at the teams and the ICU website and the comments made again. Then tell me you don't get it.


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    #26
    Chess_Coach
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 182 ✭✭Chess_Coach


    Oh the NCC night mare again !

    What is the problem so many clubs wants to play and Organizer cant fit them all in one Hotel ? Is it ?


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    #27
    brilliantboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    Chess_Coach wrote: »
    Oh the NCC night mare again !

    What is the problem so many clubs wants to play and Organizer cant fit them all in one Hotel ? Is it ?

    The only problem seems to be the ICU executive casting a cloud of doubt and confusion over things as usual


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    #28
    Mustafa Chess
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭Mustafa Chess


    brilliantboy wrote: »
    The only problem seems to be the ICU executive casting a cloud of doubt and confusion over things as usual

    How so?


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    #29
    Chess_Coach
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 182 ✭✭Chess_Coach


    We should act fast to accommodate so many teams and players . Can anyone offer spare room please ?


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    #30
    RQ_ennis_chess
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭RQ_ennis_chess


    Chess_Coach wrote: »
    We should act fast to accommodate so many teams and players . Can anyone offer spare room please ?

    So you are actually going to attend an Irish tournament? Wow cant remember the last time I saw you at one.


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    #31
    brilliantboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭brilliantboy


    Mustafa Chess wrote: »
    How so?

    Well by the sound of things Petr Neuman is an eligible player and any issues with his registration are largely down to the ICU's ongoing website issues.
    The new club seems to satisfy the NCC rules. A look at the listed players shows they're of the required rating and all live/work in the same area.

    The only issue remaining is the ICU granting the competition to Ennis when it's supposed to be held in Dublin on alternate years. And the subsequent reaction, to wait until a day before the event is due to start, cancel it and then cancel the cancellation a few hours later, is not ideal wouldn't you say?

    The ICU is coming to resemble a circus more and more with each passing year.


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