Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 12:31am

yubabill1 wrote: »

Deputy Alan Farrell: I wish to ask a follow-up question. Does Mr. Costello agree that it is a lot easier to change the configuration of a firing pin than a barrel? I could adjust the striations left by a firing pin in a shotgun with a nailfile in 30 seconds to make it completely unrecognisable from the record previously taken. To do the same with a barrel of a rifle or handgun is a completely different kettle of fish.

Oversize steel brush.

Ruins the barrel, though.

The good deputy Farrell has been watching too much CSI and is lacking in knowledge of balistics forensic evidence in the really real world.

The barrel is not just the only piece of forensic evidence. There is firing pin, breech face, extractor ,ejector, chamber /barrel and in some cases magazine marks. All leave their unique fingerprint on the case. or have their unique signitures where they are found at a crime scene. EG HK rifles have distinctive spiral patterns on the case,an ejector dent on the lip if it is a military select fire G3 and are flung about 15 meters between one and 3 o clock from the muzzle pointing direction.
For forensic evidence to be valid in court you need [in a US court that is] 4 points of proof of the same component parts,recoverd shell casings and test fired shell casings with the matching striations and tool marks.So guess how many options can be changed without touching the barrel??Yea a glock was used,but can you say it was that particular glock??Hollywood makes it too simple.

Deaf git · 03-04-2015 12:32am

GSP Expert barrel length is 115mm......
Pistols suitable for ISSF shooting? Hope someone remembers to ask NTSA what can be used when considering suitability instead of the current source for advice...

Deaf git · 03-04-2015 12:43am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The good deputy Farrell has been watching too much CSI and is lacking in knowledge of balistics forensic evidence in the really real world.

The barrel is not just the only piece of forensic evidence. There is firing pin, breech face, extractor ,ejector, chamber /barrel and in some cases magazine marks. All leave their unique fingerprint on the case. or have their unique signitures where they are found at a crime scene. EG HK rifles have distinctive spiral patterns on the case,an ejector dent on the lip if it is a military select fire G3 and are flung about 15 meters between one and 3 o clock from the muzzle pointing direction.
For forensic evidence to be valid in court you need [in a US court that is] 4 points of proof of the same component parts,recoverd shell casings and test fired shell casings with the matching striations and tool marks.So guess how many options can be changed without touching the barrel??Yea a glock was used,but can you say it was that particular glock??Hollywood makes it too simple.

Surely wear and tear changes the 'fingerprint' also? Fire 1000 rounds- 1000 firing pin strikes, 1000 ejections, 1000 extractions, barrel wear etc etc

Sparks · 03-04-2015 1:15am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As Mark Twain said about changing diapers and Govts frequently and for the same reason.:)

I was more thinking "that's a bleep job, I wouldn't want it"

Take the .22 pistol application cap we all know ISSF pistols dont have to look like anything in particular.just so long as they are the correct weight,mechanically within a parameter and fit in a ISSF regulation box.
Yet reading what the comittee has said is this.So long as it is used for ISSF ,has ten rounds, has a barrel of six ins and is under a foot in lenght .It is good to go and doesnt fall under this dubious legal further restriction?

The committee's recommendations, as Fibble points out, don't make sense because the most common kinds of ISSF pistols (as used in the Olympics) have shorter barrels than that...

It would be also the first time in the States history that a govt organisation would trump the judicary if they leave it as the ultima ratio for firearms decisions and not the DC.Means re writing at least two Firearms acts or acts related to them?

They're not suggesting it be the final resort.
Also, we already have precedent for civilian-run licencing; look at comreg (ham radio licences) and the RSA (driver licencing).

Hardly going to keep a ballistic libary in busisness a

Not our problem...

If we go thru all these hops and loops of training etc.Will they finally liscense the man and not the gun?

Practically speaking, they'd have to.

As said this is only an intern report,and there is still plenty of input to be done
Even the minister can reject the findings or go with them or take some and leave others. I'm 50/50 on this sofar.

Ditto.
Look, don't get me wrong, half that report is.... pick your expletive. But it's an iterim report, we can still write in, things can still be changed and it's a expletive-damned sight better than the original WG's report...

Deaf git wrote: »

Timelocks? By the time the thief gets to the safe the alarm should already be sounding, no?

I'm more thinking, if the timelock says that the safe's open between 9am and 12pm and you're burgled while out of the house at 8pm, that timelock's giving a false sense of security...

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As they are tchnically then bolt action rifles they cant be treated any differently as a more "normal rifle" with "tactical bits" on it.

Yeah, except they can still legally be called assault rifles in Ireland because "they look like one"...

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The good deputy Farrell has been watching too much CSI and is lacking in knowledge of balistics forensic evidence in the really real world.

Actually, he's got the idea completely correct.
Look at the California ballistic fingerprint system. Stealing from my submission:

A study carried out by the National Institute for Forensic Science for the California Department of Justice in 2003 indicated that in 68% of cases, the system was unable to determine if two bullets had been fired from the same firearm if the bullets were made by different manufacturers, and in 38% of cases if made by the same manufacturer (success in these tests was defined as the correct gun being in the top fifteen possibilities chosen by the system).

In other words, it didn't work. The same system (it's the Canadian system, California and Maryland bought theirs off the same company) was recommended to be dropped by the Maryland police because it was expensive and hadn't produced a single usable bit of evidence for several years after its initial installation.

Deaf git wrote: »

GSP Expert barrel length is 115mm......
Pistols suitable for ISSF shooting? Hope someone remembers to ask NTSA what can be used when considering suitability instead of the current source for advice...

I think it's rather likely that the NTSA will probably drop a letter into the committee about the barrel length. As to what's suitable, that's laid out by ISSF in the rulebook for everyone to read, it's nice and clear and basically is every .22lr pistol in Ireland today -- you won't be competitive to international standards with something like a buckmark, but it's perfectly within the rules and if someone has one, they can use it as an entry level pistol up to about nationals level quite readily and most pistols are similarly suitable at entry level. And that's not even a cheat, entry level is a major thing because without a large base of shooters, it's hard to build strength in depth in a sport, and the Sports Council is always going on about participation as well as performance so it's also Government policy.

Sparks · 03-04-2015 1:50am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Time lock safe.
Apart from the fact that no gun safe maker makes such a safe.

Actually, at least one crowd does (Brown) but it's the kind of pricetag where if you need to ask...

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 1:55am

Sparks wrote: »

Not our problem...

Maybe,as they want us to fork out for the ballistic testing of our own guns..So what do we do with the few hundred empty shell casings then in Garda HQ? And seeing that they recommend proofing them too ...Who is going to refurbish the proof house in Dublin Castle and employ a master proofer to do this?Thats why the act in 1967[?] was never implimented with the Kavanagh shotguns.The demand didnt justify employing a master proofer from the UK.

I'm more thinking, if the timelock says that the safe's open between 9am and 12pm and you're burgled while out of the house at 8pm, that timelock's giving a false sense of security...

Plus no such animal as a time lock gun safe exists anywhere for sale that I can find.Bio metrics yes[at a high enough price].

Yeah, except they can still legally be called assault rifles in Ireland because "they look like one"...

And its the weakest arguement already with the modern sporting rifles,as we have proven ...oh in my case at least twice,and seeing there is no definition of what an assault rifle looks like in Irish law...Most countries decide that by function rather than form, they will be arguing that a Unicorn exists in the shape of a bolt action assault rifle..:p

.

Witcher · 03-04-2015 1:55am

So if someone had both restricted and unrestricted firearms they would need two safes unless they want all their guns under a timelock?

Sparks · 03-04-2015 2:16am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe,as they want us to fork out for the ballistic testing of our own guns..So what do we do with the few hundred empty shell casings then in Garda HQ?

Use them as a point of reference for the next fifty years that when we as a community give our expert opinion and it is ignored, that the results are costly and make the papers.

Plus no such animal as a time lock gun safe exists anywhere for sale that I can find.Bio metrics yes[at a high enough price].

I just linked to one.
It's an optional extra and costs more than most cars...
...but if you think a TD like McGrath cares about that, you've not seen his pension

Point is, "it doesn't exist" is not a valid argument.
There are many, many others...

And its the weakest arguement already with the modern sporting rifles,as we have proven ...oh in my case at least twice,and seeing there is no definition of what an assault rifle looks like in Irish law...Most countries decide that by function rather than form, they will be arguing that a Unicorn exists in the shape of a bolt action assault rifle..:p

Yup.

Think that'd be much of an obstacle for some?

Sparks · 03-04-2015 2:16am

Strider wrote: »

So if someone had both restricted and unrestricted firearms they would need two safes unless they want all their guns under a timelock?

Yup.

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 2:36am

Sparks wrote: »

Use them as a point of reference for the next fifty years that when we as a community give our expert opinion and it is ignored, that the results are costly and make the papers.

I just linked to one.
It's an optional extra and costs more than most cars...
...but if you think a TD like McGrath cares about that, you've not seen his pension

Point being does it exist in common availability to us without putting undue financial hardship in aquiring it when there are also better and cheaper options.Its the legal arguement of making the preconditions so onerous and vexatious as to be impossible to use in a normal manner.Either way it is just an additional point that they are not available in every gunstore or safe company and cost more apprently than an average semi D so its unworkable and apprently from initial reports a money spinner idea from a friend of a friend on the comittee.

Heckler · 03-04-2015 3:13am

And the insanity roles on.

A member of my club was asked what competition he wants his pistol for.

T & P he says. Licence granted but his mags are restricted to 5 rounds.

T & P has a 6 round course of fire ( 12 with reload etc)....................

Does anyone in the decision making process have an iota of whats involved ?

Guards now apparently making unannounced visits to ranges (no problem with that if alls run correctly no bother) but anecdotally stopping people outside ranges and checking everythings in order.

Heckler · 03-04-2015 3:25am

The Comm
ittee recommends the
establishment of a structured and
graduated licensing scheme.
The idea of a structured and graduated licensing scheme, built on the classification of a valid
need for requiring a firearm has considerable merit. It brings clarity an
d certainty to the
process. More importantly it brings an escalating and more vigorous qualification and
expense to achieve a license for firearms of concern to An Garda
Síochána
. In effect the
higher levels of requirement and expense form a well
-
defined
restriction to risk of
proliferation. Also license applicants will have to accumulate a license history in addition to
meeting all other requirements to allow them progress up the licensing hierarchy.

Whats this nonsense ? Where do you start if all you want is a .22 rifle or .22 pistol for target shooting ? A cap gun ? a spud gun ? So someone who has an interest in hunting now has to go through a period of shooting an unsuitable hunting calibre just to prove they are competent ? Very disappointed in those recommendations by Stanton. Thought he had more sense.

Sparks · 03-04-2015 9:31am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Point being does it exist in common availability to us without putting undue financial hardship in aquiring it when there are also better and cheaper options.Its the legal arguement of making the preconditions so onerous and vexatious as to be impossible to use in a normal manner.Either way it is just an additional point that they are not available in every gunstore or safe company and cost more apprently than an average semi D so its unworkable and apprently from initial reports a money spinner idea from a friend of a friend on the comittee.

And that is a good argument. Much better than "they don't exist", because you can't just point to Brown and say "see, you're wrong, now moving on...".

Sparks · 03-04-2015 9:34am

Heckler wrote: »

Very disappointed in those recommendations by Stanton. Thought he had more sense.

(1) I would guess the Chair doesn't get to send eejits like McGrath out of the room while he drafts and publishes the report himself;
(2) Remember, interim report. Write in. There's still time to change it.

JusticeandDefence@oireachtas.ie is the email address.

yubabill1 · 03-04-2015 11:15am

Sparks wrote: »

Ha, yeah, right. I have all the full nappies I need at home thanks

On a more serious note, I think we are all agreed to various degrees that the recommendations in Justice Committee's interim report are unacceptable.

My thoughts are

they accept legal firearms are not linked with gun crime (a sop to us)

the FCP/licensing authority is a carrot on a stick (and it'll always be on the stick)

the urgency of the call for restrictions on short arms and S/A centrefires is ominous

the gun storage recommendations are impractical and unworkable, except for single shotguns (which will cause consternation in IFA circles)

the spiral of ownership to get "higher" firearms is ridiculous and typical of someone not familiar with shooting

if the silence on crime levels/proliferation/appearance means tacit approval of WG proposals in these areas, that's not good for us.

Essentially, they want more regulation, because AGS/DoJE don't like what they negotiated with FCP and I, for one, have gone as far as I want to go - in 2009 my Garda sergeant wanted proof of firearms competency from me, FFS. I had been licensed for 26 years at the time - about as long as he had been a Garda, by my reckoning.

Sparks · 03-04-2015 11:30am

yubabill1 wrote: »

On a more serious note, I think we are all agreed to various degrees that the recommendations in Justice Committee's interim report are unacceptable.

To one degree or another, yes, but do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?
I'd rather we worked with them between now and the final report before lighting the torches and reaching for the pitchforks myself, but you know me, I prefer solutions that are boring, unsexy and practical :P

yubabill1 · 03-04-2015 12:10pm

Sparks wrote: »

To one degree or another, yes, but do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?
I'd rather we worked with them between now and the final report before lighting the torches and reaching for the pitchforks myself, but you know me, I prefer solutions that are boring, unsexy and practical :P

These recommendations are a bad starting point IMHO.

All the conversation here since yesterday is around "If" and "maybe"

Yes, we will write in, but after all the effort 200-odd shooters put into their submissions and the interviews that we thought went so well, I won't be surprised to hear "Yadda yadda yadda....I hear what you say, but I'm not listening" dressed-up to sound nice.

These guys will back AGS every time - you saw the two or three who accepted the entirety of WG AGS/DoJE proposals the first day, before any submissions or alternative opinions were heard.

This is an interim report -yes, it can be modified, but these things rarely are.
Politicians and civil servants don't like saying "I got it wrong" and will only admit same under extreme duress (usually duress from the media).

I'm taking the long view in this one and it's a hawkish one.

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 12:52pm

Ok Yuba,whats your counter proposal???To borrow a cliched expression "we are where we are." We are still inputting,these proposals arent cast in stone,yet, and TBH there is alot of work to be done and logic [a paradox in Irish firearms liscensing situation I know ]to take a ridicilous situation of suggesting people would have to start out with an air rifle to get a deer rifle or a .410 to get a 12 gauge.Considering the 410 is proably the worst starter gun ever.
Going by where this system is used and set up properly[EG Germany,Czech Republic ] You want to do clay shooting.OK do a state approved saftey course that covers you straight off in three days flat written,oral and practical for use of shotgun,rifle and pistol..Then go and join your clay club for six months use the club guns and when your probationary membership is over ,you are signed off by the CRO and secetary.Go buy whatever guns you want appropriate to your disipline and that you can justify ...

THATS HOW it works in real life.IOW it doesnt matter if you want a .22 or 50 BMG a .22 or a 44 magnum.YOU ARE liscensed as the man to use any types of the guns appropriate to the sport disipline.The probationary period is actually up to the club and the disipline and was only introduced because of the mass shootings in Germany and to discourage some hot head who wanted a gun for such a purpose.

Now,of course this being IRELAND...We can be assured it will be fecked up in jig time and it becoming a money spinner with 95% padding unless we have a proper say in it.Or of course even the comittee final recomendations could be binned by the minister on a power trip and S/he bans a whole raft of guns for " the good of society"

However at this stage of the game,I'd rather a system in place where I am talking to people who know the difference between a modern sporting rifle and an assault rifle and are not under orders from their most high Poobah in the Park to refuse my liscense because of some irrational fear of 160 citizens recreating 1916 in the GPO or the Dail and their careers and pensions suffering in the meantime. Politics is the art of trying to make everyone happy and yourself liked by all.So there is going to be a lot of give and take here ,and the fact is there is an election looming so this could be either prosponed until post elections 2015/16 or rushed thru by the end of the year and then its no skin off our noses and let the new lot deal with that manure pile when they come into office.

yubabill1 · 03-04-2015 1:28pm

My position is;

-write to the Justice committee (but don't expect any major movement from interim recommendations)

-keep your powder dry for a sustained campaign, with the whole thing intensified to the max at election time.

This whole FCP/licensing authority is a white elephant. It's never going to fly IMHO - Sparks even said that AGS/DoJE are strongly against a few posts back.

Even if their political masters herd them into another FCP with us, it's likely to fall apart and AGS/DoJE are never going to give civilian oversight to licensing with the threat (Justice cttee obviously take seriously, looking at interim recommendations)from nutters shooting schoolkids/rampage murders/ leaving guns in barns etc.

What's so bad with the 2009 legislation? I think it's fine, we don't need any more regulation - most of us can't afford to comply with restricted conditions as-is. these recommendations are a bad place to start negotiating from - they need to change drastically before we engage.

What I see happening is AGS/DoJE take part in FCP to get their proposals more-or-less - FCP fall apart, one way or another - licensing authority becomes impossible to implement - further restrictions apply anyway.

Cynical, I know but that's how I see it.

Sparks · 03-04-2015 1:42pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

These guys will back AGS every time - you saw the two or three who accepted the entirety of WG AGS/DoJE proposals the first day, before any submissions or alternative opinions were heard.

Yes, but to be fair, I do try not to assume people are as bad as Finian when we first meet them and they've had a chance to prove otherwise

Politicians and civil servants don't like saying "I got it wrong" and will only admit same under extreme duress (usually duress from the media).

Yup.
Don't need them to say that.
"On further reflection and after receipt of new data" is a different matter.
I'm not interested in heads on a platter, I just want boringly easy to comprehend legislation that works.

I'm taking the long view in this one and it's a hawkish one.

Yeah, the actual long view here is that in fifty years we'll still be doing this, and getting some structure in there like the FCP is our best bet on that timeframe.

Deaf git · 03-04-2015 1:48pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

the urgency of the call for restrictions on short arms and S/A centrefires is ominous

......

if the silence on crime levels/proliferation/appearance means tacit approval of WG proposals in these areas, that's not good for us.

Again the use of the expression 'restriction' needs clarification. As grizzly points out, sa rifles are as restricted as can be short of an outright ban. If .22 pistols remain legally as unrestricted but within specific perameters on barrel length and common sense 10 rd mag this would leave the bulk of existing .22 exactly where they are. IF the committee are recommending all .22 pistols as restricted (legally restricted category) that is another matter. I suspect the committee mean the former, if not why bother quoting barrel lengths etc.

The silence on crime levels in certain districts is really worrying...but I cant see it flying. House owners have lost enough equity in recent years and the knock on effect on property values and insurance premiums would be political suicide. Thats what I hope anyhow.

Sparks · 03-04-2015 1:49pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

My position is;
-write to the Justice committee (but don't expect any major movement from interim recommendations)
-keep your powder dry for a sustained campaign, with the whole thing intensified to the max at election time.

Common sense, that.

This whole FCP/licensing authority is a white elephant. It's never going to fly IMHO - Sparks even said that AGS/DoJE are strongly against a few posts back.

The FCP was supposed to be impossible. I thought it would be. Then it worked and shocked the daylights out of all of us. Then we threw it away and the Working Group review is the inevitable, completely predictable (and completely predicted) result.

And I didn't say the DoJ were against it, I said the Gardai were against it because they're the ones who'd have to give up the licencing function. The DoJ wouldn't care either way, no skin off their nose. Hell, if it got things to quiet down and nixed court cases I suspect they'd be behind it by Ministerial decree.

Even if their political masters herd them into another FCP with us, it's likely to fall apart

Last time it did that, it was because of a shooting group, not the powers that be.

What's so bad with the 2009 legislation?

You mean other than it banning a sport, being impossible to clearly read, accidentally making paintball illegal, preventing further licencing of centerfire pistols, not accounting for reloading, and a dozen other small things? Nothing really...

...and what have the romans ever done for us, eh?

Cynical, I know but that's how I see it.

I'm equally cynical at this point, but frankly, I'm not thinking the FCP's worst enemy is in a state body or the Dail. Boring, unsexy, effective solutions that require quiet work that strokes nobody's ego - the Hans Blix approach in other words - tend to do poorly when there's a prospect of a juicy table-pounding FIGHT! to be had...

Sparks · 03-04-2015 1:50pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Again the use of the expression 'restriction' needs clarification.

They're actually using it in the sense of "hold off licencing any more until we sort this out".

Problem is, how you do that legally. I don't know if the Minister actually has the legal authority to order that. The Gardai definitely don't. (I'm still looking btw, I've just been distracted with changing jobs and I've not had enough book time to figure it out).

yubabill1 · 03-04-2015 2:08pm

Sparks wrote: »

Common sense, that.

The FCP was supposed to be impossible. I thought it would be. Then it worked and shocked the daylights out of all of us. Then we threw it away and the Working Group review is the inevitable, completely predictable (and completely predicted) result.

Last time it did that, it was because of a shooting group, not the powers that be.

You mean other than it banning a sport, being impossible to clearly read, accidentally making paintball illegal, preventing further licencing of centerfire pistols, not accounting for reloading, and a dozen other small things? Nothing really...

...and what have the romans ever done for us, eh?

I'm equally cynical at this point, but frankly, I'm not thinking the FCP's worst enemy is in a state body or the Dail. Boring, unsexy, effective solutions that require quiet work that strokes nobody's ego - the Hans Blix approach in other words - tend to do poorly when there's a prospect of a juicy table-pounding FIGHT! to be had...

That's what I mean about FCP falling apart - AGS/DoJE will do as instructed - that's what they get paid for in the long run - they know our representatives will end up divided it they wait patiently.

The 2009 legislation is water under the bridge and not too bad if it was implemented in the spirit intended (OK, OK..)

FIGHT - only when you absolutely have to in self-defence.

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 2:26pm

what I'm sending over to the comitte..Did i miss anything or much?

I read with great interest as did most of the shooting community your intern report on progress on the firearms issue.
Consensus is 50/50 that the committee has got this 50/50 right so far.

So I’ll start with the positive.
Removing AGS as being the sole authority for licensing and setting up an independent licensing authority that becomes an arbitrator before everyone having to go to the judicial system.

Garda authority to investigate the AGS handling of this firearms issue. Also as per NARGC the suggestion for a risk assessment of shooting to public safety in Ireland.

Gun safes for any type of firearm. Most are in agreement with this. However this should be also tempered with common sense as there are items on our statue books that do not classify as firearms normally as we have seen in the Garda statistics. Things like humane killers,deacts etc.

The points that need clarification
Why hasn’t the committee addressed the issue of the semi shotguns at this point??There is consternation that because it hasn’t been addressed at this point the committee agrees by its silence with their DOJ working group that these types of shotguns should be banned? There are more pump and semi shotguns in Ireland than pistols and semi rifles and even the UK accepts that previous five shot plus shot guns can be modified to hold three shots if carried out by a competent gunsmith. Also it has been illegal to sell an unmodified shotgun I Ireland since 1976 under our wildlife acts for winged game hunting .I would urge the committee to address this point soonest.

The Experience level
How does the committee see this work with say someone wishing to acquire a .22 rifle or handgun or shotgun??it is silly to say that in the case of a shotgun they must start with the smallest bore [.410] to work up to a 12 gauge over a period of time? Shofar unspecified. Also will previous experience be taken into account to fast track an applicant. There are shooters out there who have lifetime experiences of using firearms and it would be disingenuous to suggest thy must go back to “kindergarten” to learn basic firearms safety.

Points that are really not going to work.

A national ballistics record of all firearms.
I might draw your attention to the fact that this has been tried in Germany, and the USA[Maryland and California] and in all three were scrapped as very costly and unworkable and did not provide one viable bit of crime solving evidence. Also it is too easy to replace or modify a component within a few minutes to destroy any ballistic fingerprint. As us gun owners will be paying for this we believe this will be money wasted for no good purpose. As for the suggestion of proofing Irish firearms...as well.. This is a once off process in a firearms life that is at this stage of technology a rather archaic method of quality control. Ireland did have a proof house in the 1960s when the proof house act was brought in to support a starting firearms manufacturing industry in Ireland.Notebly the Kavanagh gun works in Birr co offaly.However,it never amounted to much as the state neglected to employ a master proofer of firearms. Were such a person to be employed by the state ,he is going to be rather under employed as most firearms come into Ireland already proofed to EU standards from their manufacturing companies or importers, as any firearm offered for sale in the EU must be proofed before it can be sold by its maker .So it would be just doubling up on unnecessary expense and paperwork.

Time locks on restricted firearm safes.
Realistically this is going to be a non-starter for the following reasons.
It provides a false sense of security as to own a restricted firearm you already need a monitored alarm which should be going off if your house is being broken into. Also what happens if the burglary happens once the time lock has run off?

As such there is virtually NO known maker of gun safes that actually commercially make a time lock gun safe as it is somewhat ,awkward and inconvenient .Most gun safe makers are going to biometrics to prevent unauthorised access to firearms. The only one that I could find making such a device the cost is over the price of a mid-range saloon car and is a custom manufacture. This would be onerous and vexatious to force restricted firearms owners to invest in a very dubious security system for questionable purposes and not to mind intrusive on their privacy as to when they might wish to use or access their own private property.
Also it is impossible to retrofit a gun safe with a time lock as most of the safes door would be taken up with the mechanical mechanism. As such they are not designed for this modification

There is already strong suspicion and rumour that someone has suggested this to a committee member as a nice money spinner for selling overpriced security systems. We are investigating this further as we will hopefully find this to be an unfounded rumour.

Points that really need to be looked at by the committee.
1] The continual “lost applications” that seem to bedevil every Garda station in the Republic, oddly enough especially with new aplicants.It is somewhat worrisome that applications with personal data ,photo, medical records, firearms details and numbers can go astray that often and there seems to be no corrective methods or enquiry put in place by AGS to rectify this loss of confidential data which violates the sections of the data protection act on securing personal information.

2]The proposal declaration of high crime areas and refusals to issue firearms.
Apart from this power already existing in the 1925 act, where a chief or higher can declare an area unliscenseable and revoke all certs in an area, this would seem to be doubling up on already existing legislation?? As well as creating a post code lottery for firearms applications has the unintended consequences of this been fully considered in the knock on effect of property prices,insurance,personal and household as well as careers or employment opportunities?As this will also apply to adjoining areas of the district,this has very serious ramifications to society in general.

3]The “revenge” factor
It seems very coincidental too that post the winning of the applications in Limerick in Oct 2014,that within a month of this the working group proposals are in the public arena.Especially,as under the District Court rules 2014 costs were awarded to the appellants to the tune of 30 thousand euros against the chief superintendent of Henry street. Considering that five of these cases were for centre fire handguns and one modern sporting rifle, and in the previous year the same had happened that four modern sporting rifles had also been successfully appealed in the same court. As well as the successful high court actions against the AGS where two chief supers were caught tampering with evidence and perjury in firearm cases, which has cost the tax payer over an estimated 4.5 million euros [still unpaid as is the 30 thousand in limerick] ,as well as the chief ballistics officer of AGS being investigation by the Garda Siochanna Ombudsman Commission. I think the committee should also be asking of AGS some questions along these lines of “ we will get our way by hook or by crook? “and when might they consider paying up their court bills?
4 ]The temporary cap on .22 pistols and modern sporting centre fire rifles.
Under what legislation is this proposed to be carried out? And for what sort of a time period? Will this time period be fixed by law and enforced as such or will this become another” one month “that stretched from 1972 to 2004? As the Irish shooting community has had this enforced on us before we would like extreme clarification on this measure.

yubabill1 · 03-04-2015 2:52pm

You don't mention the 22 short barrel firearms ban,
the temporary (a la 1972?) restrictions on licensing handguns/ S/A centrefires
The idontlikethelook of that proposal in WG report,
presumably given tacit support by silence of Justice Cttee

Just some of my own thoughts. Good obs, Griz.

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 2:58pm

Odd this thing about the time locks.That only is recommended for restricted handguns...

Nekarsulm · 03-04-2015 3:04pm

Looks good. Few typo's, that's all.
On the point of Time Locks.
Can the Gardaí arrange for Mr.Fox to visit my lambs only during the period of time that the safe is opened............

Semi-Auto & Pump action shotguns.
There seems to be a bit of a blind spot about these. Their suitability to the less than clinical conditions experienced on farms and most rough shooting locations, their ruggedness and their inherent safety, all these factors seem to be negated by their portrayal in Hollywood movies and video games.
Since when do we as a country implement laws based on films, video games and comics?
Regards, Nek.

Grizzly 45 · 03-04-2015 3:11pm

Since always by the look of things..No logical reason to restrict folding,telescoping or pistol gripped stocks,as most people will change back to conventional after using thes stocks for about a week.:PBut never let a good Hollywood product get in the way of reality in law making.:rolleyes:

Nekarsulm · 03-04-2015 3:19pm

That was a rhetorical question really.... sure haven't we implemented a huge amount of civil laws based on religious teachings.

Right, I'm off for a pint.

Oh, wait......

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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