One of the reasons people give up on golf

The Big Easy · 27-03-2015 10:41pm #1

So booked a round at Ballyneety for 3.30pm today. Enough time to play 18 after college. The club are trying to get everyone to book online and have sent out a few messages about it. Had a quick look at the sheet and there was only a few lines booked with no four balls so I thought great; I'll get around fairly handy.

By getting out before 4 you usually avoid the evening rush that will be picking up again now. Headed out to the tee, a guy on his own was on the green up ahead so I thought if it's slow I'll have someone to join up with. Joined up with him on the third tee as he said there was a fourball ahead of the threeball in front. He was hoping to play nine before picking up the kids, he gave up after the third (don't think it was my company!). Sadly there's no one waiting at home for me so on I went.

Was behind the threeball playing the uphill par 5 fourth, then the lads decided to play down nine (I presumed to skip the fourball ahead). I was swinging quite nicely and wanted to post an 18 hole score (the full 18 have only been in play the last week or so). Caught up with the fourball playing the par 3 6th, it quickly became apparent they weren't for passing.

In fairness they were quite quick for a fourball and seemed to be decent players. So I said I'd keep going behind them and they may let me through if they lose a ball or something. I never got on the tee until they had replaced the flag and didn't hit a shot until they were well clear.

I was waiting substantially on every shot but I know a single golfer has no standing on a golf course so you just have to grin and bear it. I waited for the green to clear on the par 5 9th even though I had 235 into the wind left, so there could be no misinterpretation and I stayed well back on every tee as I know how annoying it can be to feel pressured from behind. Then on 11 while I was waiting beside the tee, my chance came and one of the guys waved me through, as they went to look for a ball down the left tree line.

I jumped onto the tee and hit a decent drive down the right. As I was marching down the fairway the guy on the left had found or dropped a ball and was hitting. It was a bit odd and seemed like he was trying to renege on the call through. As I got down to my ball the guy who initially waved me through asked if I wanted to play in and I said "yes, if you don't mind". The other three said nothing to me and were talking quite loudly amongst themselves. I was feeling uncomfortable so I played my shot quickly and scuttled it along the ground about 20 yards short of the green.

They continued to play down to the green and I tried to get as quickly to my ball as possible. I was still playing quite nicely and wanted to see what kind of score I could post. As I was getting ready to play my chip one of the fourball walked across the front of the green. I played an ok chip nearly pitched in the hole and ran to the back of the green.

Then the guy closed to me at the side of the green said would you pick that ball up and head to the next tee and leave us get on with it. Taken aback I said: "I know a single golfer has no standing on the course but etiquette is one thing; decency is another." It was his turn to be taken aback and he said oh you can finish out if you like.

I glared back and said "I will, thank you". The greens have just been poleforked and sanded so I hit a miserable putt 10 foot short, understandable considering inside I was seething. As I walked up to the second putt one of the other guys shouted would you ever give him that. The one who waved me through told me to take my time and held the flag. I rolled the 10 footer in for bogey, said thank you and went to the next tee.

The whole episode left a really bad taste in my mouth. I hadn't asked to be called through, hadn't rained any balls down behind them, hadn't even furiously practised my swing on the tee box like many do. This was not Saturday or Sunday morning but Friday evening when you'd expect to be able to get around your home club without being made to feel a pariah. I don't know if they're members or not but I hope not. I payed €700 to join this club and if I'd known that's the calibre of member, I'd have reassessed my options. I know it's a small sample size to be making any wider judgements.

Anyway just thought I'd share as there's been discussions here as to how to help club golf grow and make all the courses we have sustainable. Some of the stuffiness and attitudes of entitlement that sometimes corrode this wonderful game can put a beginner off the game for life. Unfortunately for me I'm in too deep to be put off now. I love golf but some of the stuff around it can be :mad:

:pac:

Norfolk Enchants_ · 27-03-2015 10:53pm

Two things, a single player now has the same standing as any other group(this was changed a number of years ago), second by hanging back you inadvertly gave the impression you're weren't bothered about been called through.
Also why is casual 18 hole score so important to you, you could easily have jumped ahead and saved yourself all the aggro.

Seve OB · 27-03-2015 11:15pm

Jeysus big I'd be saying something inside, a word in passing in the pro shop , not an official complaint, but definitely day something.

I can't understand they waited so long to call you through, but as Norfolk says, maybe you should have been more visible and making it known you would like to go through.

There were obviously at 2 ignorant f'ers in the group from what you say, but they were just that, rude and ignorant. I wouldn't call that kind of behaviour stuffiness or attitudes of entitlement.

And Norfolk, why shouldnt an 18 hole score be important? He should not of had to jump ahead. A single golfer on his own has every bit of entitlement to be on the course and I have never seen anyone not call through someone playing in their own

Tis as well Big that you are a golf nut or I reckon you would be hanging out with the squirrels next time those lads are playing and throwing your nuts at them

FixdePitchmark · 27-03-2015 11:18pm

I think many golfers out there - feel there is no place for a single player on a course at all.

Many of these would never play a game of golf on their own - so they find it odd to start with.

I'm guessing the course was all free in front ?

Agree there is a way of not being an arse when a 1 ball - but you need to press when the time is right - or clearly a call is going to come.

I'd ask could I play through, the odd time- as sometimes tourist or new golfers are just not clued in. (rare enough)

I love a full round 1 ball alone - will join someone if it happens , so can understand wanting to play a regular round alone. A 1 ball is 1 thing - but wanting to count their full round alone , would be looked on as a form of madness by many golfers.

I'd have to be there to get context - but your man may have been just trying to be funny. But - I get a sense you can deal with people if required.

But, to look at the bigger picture - if golf was played by just 1 balls - there would be no golf - what 40 - 50 people on a course. I've accepted that 1 balls need to be the most flexible golfers out there - that also means work out what hole to start on. And - just give up on occasion and go 9th to 14th.

alxmorgan · 27-03-2015 11:37pm

Sorry to hear that Big. Unfortunately you get guys like this everywhere now and again. Terrible behaviour. Not calling someone through is poor but what went on after that is unforgivable.

At least for next time you know the deal with a single golfer as was changed a while back as others have said.

Best to just chalk it up to experience and trust that 99% of golfers you meet aren't like that.

Seve OB · 28-03-2015 12:04am

What was the rule change with regard to single golfers. I was never aware of one. I used to play a lot on my own, as lots of others do in my club. Never ever had an issue and you would always be given respect and offered to play through

The Big Easy · 28-03-2015 12:09am

Yeah there was about 3 or 4 holes clear in front. And I can definitely tell the difference between someone trying to be funny

I've often skipped ahead or picked up especially when the group calls me through immediately. When they made such a song and dance about it, for sure I was going to finish out. I should be able to record a score if I want, if anyone knows about playing against the course it's you Fix! :pac:

I think it's definitely entitlement; some thing it's exclusively a four ball game that should take 4 plus hours and to he'll with anyone else. Again this was Friday evening not wall to wall four balls on a weekend.

Anyway I've vented now and I've gone out for a drink so all good. Seve, I did want to say something in the pro shop but it was closed. I will still probably mentionsomething informally.

charlieIRL · 28-03-2015 12:20am

Very bad form in my opinion.

Lads ye have to remember, OP is a new member so, like a lot of us, when we joined a club for the first time we all wanted to play as much as possible and to note our scores even if this meant playing on our own.

New members should be encouraged to play.

I actually gave up membership in a club because of the actions of members but that's another story.

charlieIRL · 28-03-2015 12:35am

Not necessary Norfolk

Milkers · 28-03-2015 1:36pm

The Big Easy wrote: »

I know a single golfer has no standing on a golf course so you just have to grin and bear it.

It's unfortunate so many people still believe this to be the case. It was revised in 2004 and then clarified further in 2008.

Russman · 28-03-2015 3:43pm

No offence Op but this sounds like a bit of a mountain out of a molehill tbh.

Yes, the guys seem to have been d1cks about it, but maybe they were expecting that when calling a single player through that he'd do what might "usually" be expected and chip on and maybe one putt or hit a long putt then pick up and move on. You were absolutely entitled to do what you did, I'm not knocking that, but it's fairly unusual for a single player to want to hole out and count every shot seeing as it doesn't matter in an official sense. They could equally think the same of you, along the lines of "......we let this fella through and rather than pick up and move along he insisted on putting out on the green we called him through on...."

Like I say I'm not having a go at you, but it sounds like both parties expectations were just in a different place.

slave1 · 28-03-2015 3:51pm

Seve OB wrote: »

What was the rule change with regard to single golfers. I was never aware of one. I used to play a lot on my own, as lots of others do in my club. Never ever had an issue and you would always be given respect and offered to play through

Definition of a group now includes a solo player, changed it a few years back...

In any case if I was out in a 4ball I'd go out of my way to let the 1ball through (assuming free in front) as I want to enjoy myself and not have someone standing around looking at me embarrass myself

slave1 · 28-03-2015 3:58pm

Here you go, from the R&A rules, the bit at the beginning regarding pace of play

Play at a Good Pace and Keep Up
You should always play at a good pace. The committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow. It's a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If they lose a clear hole and delay the group behind, they should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group.

and the definition of 'a group' from the priority section

In the "Priority on the Course" section: "Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group's pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term 'group' includes a single player."

But a group is tempered by "unless otherwise determined by the Committee" so a golf course can e.g. demote a single player to have no standing or insist on minimum of say 2balls etc. or societies in 3ball only etc.

Great article on it here...
http://golf.about.com/od/golfetiquette/f/singlespriority.htm

FixdePitchmark · 28-03-2015 4:04pm

The psycological aspect I never get my head around -

As someone said earlier - why would you want someone up your arse all the time , just let them go.

With some groups (male and female) - there seems to be a pride thing of never letting someone through.

The worst golfers of all are - the ones who start playing faster and faster only when you are behind them. They think because they are trying - there is no need to let you through. Mad stuff.

benny79 · 28-03-2015 4:53pm

I always try 2 play a full 18 in summer evenings or when I have the time & would hole out 90% less its a gimme as golf is you against the course anyway. And you want to beat your best score for self pride. so see nothing wrong with that.

Easy they where just dicks, and there in every club. I wasn't going to rejoin my club this year cause of similar stuff and long time members thinking they own the place. So half way through last year I said Im not taking any **** of anyone in the club, if I wanted to know where I came Id ring club Secretary if I wasn't happen about something Id email & let them know etc small thinks like that, got into a few small rows on course not with people in my group & nothing major.

Have to say the difference it made! I get much more respect from fellow members (who I once taught were dicks) I get more emails etc from club & I've actually feel part of the club, so much so Id go into the clubhouse after my round for a coffee or bowl of soup.

So fair play Easy for standing your ground! Thats what I say.

agusta · 28-03-2015 5:16pm

Ballyneety have a ranger working on the golf course now but he doesnt work 24/7.The club has well over a hunderd new members since january and as a result the time sheets are quite full.
The club wants the members to put their name on the time sheet mainly due to golfers double booking tee times on sat and sunday morning and as a result some golfers are missing out on tee times.Also some people [not members] were coming to the course and just played without paying.The club want/are going to stop this.
However there will always be members that will come out and play towards the evening time without putting there name on the timesheet.This will always happen im afraid.Also between the time you put your name down on the timesheet and getting to the golf course two fourballs for example could walk into the pro shop and put their name down on the timesheet in front of you and they are entitled to do this.
I can see your grievance alright,your were unlucky to meet two ignorant people.people like this are in every club in the country though.
its wishfull thinking that you will be able to come out in the evening time and get a clear run at getting in 18 holes with no 3 or 4 balls in front of you.
The course is at its quietest the last two hours before dark.it also give you a chance to take a few practice chips.
Ballyneety is probally one of the most progressive clubs in the country at the moment and its reguarded as being very friendly club.Hopefully you will see that in time
eighteen holes have been open the last few weekends.Tees very forward though.The full course should be open next weekend for the april medal, back tees and strokeplay.Now that should be fun.p.s fair play for standing up to them

The Big Easy · 28-03-2015 7:41pm

Russman wrote: »

No offence Op but this sounds like a bit of a mountain out of a molehill tbh.

Yes, the guys seem to have been d1cks about it, but maybe they were expecting that when calling a single player through that he'd do what might "usually" be expected and chip on and maybe one putt or hit a long putt then pick up and move on. You were absolutely entitled to do what you did, I'm not knocking that, but it's fairly unusual for a single player to want to hole out and count every shot seeing as it doesn't matter in an official sense. They could equally think the same of you, along the lines of "......we let this fella through and rather than pick up and move along he insisted on putting out on the green we called him through on...."

Like I say I'm not having a go at you, but it sounds like both parties expectations were just in a different place.

Of course it's a mountain out of a molehill; this is the internet!

No, I always think context is the most important consideration. It seems they would have been perfectly happy to have me wait on every shot behind them for the full 18. The context is the course was relatively quite; three or four holes free in front, couple of holes free behind.

I'm generally a pretty understanding person and I know it's a bit annoying if you're having to let a stream of one balls through but this was not the case. I'd just hit my third on to the green and hadn't even got to the green (I might have been picking up anyway which would be my choice), when he said I should pick up and move to the next tee. Again this is something I have often done when the group are courteous and you want to disrupt them as little as possible.

However, this group were openly hostile and trying to make me feel uncomfortable from as soon as I was waved through (I think they were unhappy with their playing partner for giving me the signal). They were well aware I was behind and had a perfect opportunity to let me through on the par 3 8th where I got to the tee before they had teed off.

Anyway quite happy to let this go now and hope it's an isolated incident, just think these incidents can be damaging to the game we love and it's ability to attract players not from golf backgrounds, who aren't a 100% au fait with golf etiquette. Plus it's the kind of thing we like to discuss here

Also on the one ball having equal standing if it's still open to committee decision it's not really universal is it? I kind of personally think that point is a bit moot; for me it's a matter of decency not etiquette.

princess poppy · 28-03-2015 7:52pm

I'm just thinking thank xxxx they weren't women. Lol xx

FixdePitchmark · 28-03-2015 7:57pm

princess poppy wrote: »

I'm just thinking thank xxxx they weren't women. Lol xx

Not just saying this - the fastest golfers I've seen in last few years at this game are women.

Almost too fast at times - bangin balls down on my head.

It is all just in the speed they walk. Unreal

First Up · 28-03-2015 8:03pm

I assume there wasn't a competition being played - if there was you presumably would not have been on the course.
As a single, all you are doing is practicing. The other groups may not have been in a competition but they may have had their own match going. I think it is a single's obligation to stay clear of anyone else.

princess poppy · 28-03-2015 8:57pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not just saying this - the fastest golfers I've seen in last few years at this game are women.

Almost too fast at times - bangin balls down on my head.

It is all just in the speed they walk. Unreal

Think of it as multi-tasking!

But like anyone else when they are on a day out it can be gruesome

alxmorgan · 29-03-2015 11:49pm

Russman wrote: »

No offence Op but this sounds like a bit of a mountain out of a molehill tbh.

Yes, the guys seem to have been d1cks about it, but maybe they were expecting that when calling a single player through that he'd do what might "usually" be expected and chip on and maybe one putt or hit a long putt then pick up and move on. You were absolutely entitled to do what you did, I'm not knocking that, but it's fairly unusual for a single player to want to hole out and count every shot seeing as it doesn't matter in an official sense. They could equally think the same of you, along the lines of "......we let this fella through and rather than pick up and move along he insisted on putting out on the green we called him through on...."

Like I say I'm not having a go at you, but it sounds like both parties expectations were just in a different place.

Completely disagree with you here....the issues started before he even got a chance to get to the green and hurry it along. Talking loudly while he was hitting his approach. Walking across the green while he was hitting his chip. Well out of order.

alxmorgan · 29-03-2015 11:51pm

First Up wrote: »

I assume there wasn't a competition being played - if there was you presumably would not have been on the course.
As a single, all you are doing is practicing. The other groups may not have been in a competition but they may have had their own match going. I think it is a single's obligation to stay clear of anyone else.

I don't see the sense behind this. He is as much a member as they are. Why is it his obligation to stay clear ?

If its not a competition and just a match, in other words a friendly, it is no more important than what he was doing.

First Up · 30-03-2015 8:08am

alxmorgan wrote: »

I don't see the sense behind this. He is as much a member as they are. Why is it his obligation to stay clear ?

If its not a competition and just a match, in other words a friendly, it is no more important than what he was doing.

Disagree. They were playing a golf game. He was practicing.

moycullen14 · 30-03-2015 8:55am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not just saying this - the fastest golfers I've seen in last few years at this game are women.

Almost too fast at times - bangin balls down on my head.

It is all just in the speed they walk. Unreal

Absolutely. They are remorseless. Hit, walk, hit, on and on. No faffing about, no looking for golf balls, bags positioned at right side of green, everything done properly. One part of it is that there seems to be no shortage of women members who will call people on bad behaviour. I've seen women tackled in the clubhouse about things by other women. If the same thing happened with the men, there would be fists flying.

Same thing doesn't seem to happen with the men. Usually passive-aggressive crap like the above.

Played a fourball yesterday - 15 holes 3hrs 20. My wife managed a full 18 later on in just 3 hours. I can't remember the last time I managed an 18 hole 4-ball in less than 4 hours.

Slow women golfers? You're having a giraffe! Must be the biggest myth in golf.

Tiger Mcilroy · 30-03-2015 9:16am

First Up wrote: »

I assume there wasn't a competition being played - if there was you presumably would not have been on the course.
As a single, all you are doing is practicing. The other groups may not have been in a competition but they may have had their own match going. I think it is a single's obligation to stay clear of anyone else.

In the context of how the OP has explained this situation you are completely wrong here.

The op stated he was doing that and held back without pressurising them to be let through, it was the group that called him through. They then start making snide comments and telling him to pick the ball up...the op did nothing wrong and the lads in the fourball are out of order regardless of being in a match or comp. Every club has these types of passive agressive people and their actions are purely negative and can have an impact on peoples decisions to stay in clubs or not.

slave1 · 30-03-2015 9:34am

First Up wrote: »

I assume there wasn't a competition being played - if there was you presumably would not have been on the course.
As a single, all you are doing is practicing. The other groups may not have been in a competition but they may have had their own match going. I think it is a single's obligation to stay clear of anyone else.

Sorry dude, look up the rules, a group includes a single player and this group of one has the same standing on the course as e.g. group of four, if the group of four has lost ground or holding up a faster group i.e. in this case a group of one, then they must let the faster group through.
One cannot simply disregard a rule purely because of a) ignorance of it or b) choosing to ignore it e.g. can't find it, a sure drop one there...

Guys (and gals!) will come onto this forum wanting to find a ruling or guidance on something that happened to them so they can do the right thing (in accordance with the rules of golf) next time on the course...the right thing to do when a group of two, three or four is holding up a group of one (and there is free space ahead) is to let them through as soon as, end of.

Russman · 30-03-2015 10:06am

I would have thought that the rules of golf only apply when its an official competition. Anything else is just, as First Up says, practicing.

I wouldn't defend the way the lads called him through and the smart remarks etc., if you call someone through you make that decision and that's it, you just hope you make the right call and there's no need for bad manners. I'm sure we've all called people through and had second thoughts about it for some reason. But equally, when you are being called through it would be fairly normal for the player being called through to, in a sense, reciprocate the good gesture by hurrying up and, especially when not in a competition, picking up after a putt or two and moving on quickly. Its reasonably unusual for a single player to want to count every shot as if its a competition.

Yes, of course someone is entitled to do xyz as per the rules and members are all equal and all that malarky, but sometimes a little bit of common sense (on both sides) can do wonders. As someone who regularly practices on my own on a summer evening if I can, I genuinely can't see the point in staying behind a group that are holding me up, when I could jump to holes that are free either ahead or behind. Firstly counting my score is completely meaningless as its not a counting round, and secondly I look at it as an opportunity to either skip ahead or hang back and do a bit of short game practice or something.

Op I'm not accusing you of not doing the correct thing, the above is just in general terms.

Russman · 30-03-2015 10:20am

slave1 wrote: »

Sorry dude, look up the rules, a group includes a single player and this group of one has the same standing on the course as e.g. group of four, if the group of four has lost ground or holding up a faster group i.e. in this case a group of one, then they must let the faster group through.
One cannot simply disregard a rule purely because of a) ignorance of it or b) choosing to ignore it e.g. can't find it, a sure drop one there...

Guys (and gals!) will come onto this forum wanting to find a ruling or guidance on something that happened to them so they can do the right thing (in accordance with the rules of golf) next time on the course...the right thing to do when a group of two, three or four is holding up a group of one (and there is free space ahead) is to let them through as soon as, end of.

Can you point me in the direction of this rule please ? Genuinely asking as I thought pace of play was dealt with in the etiquette section and not the actual rules of playing the game. If it is just in the etiquette section, then I think its not a great comparison to compare not calling someone through to dropping a ball on the course.

alxmorgan · 30-03-2015 10:32am

Russman wrote: »

I would have thought that the rules of golf only apply when its an official competition. Anything else is just, as First Up says, practicing.

I wouldn't defend the way the lads called him through and the smart remarks etc., if you call someone through you make that decision and that's it, you just hope you make the right call and there's no need for bad manners. I'm sure we've all called people through and had second thoughts about it for some reason. But equally, when you are being called through it would be fairly normal for the player being called through to, in a sense, reciprocate the good gesture by hurrying up and, especially when not in a competition, picking up after a putt or two and moving on quickly. Its reasonably unusual for a single player to want to count every shot as if its a competition.

Yes, of course someone is entitled to do xyz as per the rules and members are all equal and all that malarky, but sometimes a little bit of common sense (on both sides) can do wonders. As someone who regularly practices on my own on a summer evening if I can, I genuinely can't see the point in staying behind a group that are holding me up, when I could jump to holes that are free either ahead or behind. Firstly counting my score is completely meaningless as its not a counting round, and secondly I look at it as an opportunity to either skip ahead or hang back and do a bit of short game practice or something.

Op I'm not accusing you of not doing the correct thing, the above is just in general terms.

You talk about reciprocating the good gesture...the issue here is that before the OP even had a chance to hurry up or reciprocate the poor behaviour started i.e. talking loudly during his first shot after being called through, walking across the green as he was hitting his chip in.

And to say the rules of golf only apply in a comp may be true in a lot of cases (mulligans being taken etc) but I wouldn't count pace of play and being called through as one of them. If it was then anarchy would break out as every slow group in the country took as much time as they pleased and to hell with everyone else.

moycullen14 · 30-03-2015 10:50am

It's a tricky one, though.

On a summer's evening, you could have a lot of guys out for a few holes on their own. Is a fourball expected to let every one of them through?

As has been stated already, on my own, I'd just avoid the fourballs by skipping holes, playing a few balls. I wouldn't expect them to let me through.

If they did I would make an effort to hurry up - picking up after a couple of putts, etc. I would be pissed if I got snide comments, though.

Whenever you get through, just say 'Thanks lads, Appreciate this, I'll be out of your way as quick as possible' Amazingly, I never have any problems.

Common sense and good manners go a very long way.......

One of the reasons people give up on golf

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