Outer City Bypass

what_traffic · 25-02-2015 3:00pm

ScumLord wrote: »

From what I remember Ireland will just get wetter not necessarily hotter. This of course means things like walking and cycling are just going to get less desirable in the future. We can think it would be nice to have cities and towns that didn't rely on the car but the reality is the car is king and will remain king for the foreseeable future so we need to build infrastructure for it.

You can always dethrone a King! Reigning Monarchs come and go. Long live the Republic.

dubhthach · 25-02-2015 3:33pm

Zzippy wrote: »

With rising petrol prices etc many people simply won't be able to afford cars, or commuting long distances by car, in the future -

There's a reason of course why the car industry pour billions into R&D every year to offset issues like this. Engines get more efficient burn less fuel is one offset the other is the idea of switching wholescale to either Hydrogen (see California's "Hydrogen Highway" project) or electric such as what Telsa are doing (in process of developing a "low cost" model at the moment).

Zzippy · 25-02-2015 4:01pm

dubhthach wrote: »

There's a reason of course why the car industry pour billions into R&D every year to offset issues like this. Engines get more efficient burn less fuel is one offset the other is the idea of switching wholescale to either Hydrogen (see California's "Hydrogen Highway" project) or electric such as what Telsa are doing (in process of developing a "low cost" model at the moment).

The possibility that electric/hydrogen cars may become affordable and viable in future decades, and the rather large assumption that we can access the cheap electricity/hydrogen needed to power them, is not a reason to avoid planning for a more integrated transport solution now.

dubhthach · 25-02-2015 4:11pm

Zzippy wrote: »

The possibility that electric/hydrogen cars may become affordable and viable in future decades, and the rather large assumption that we can access the cheap electricity/hydrogen needed to power them, is not a reason to avoid planning for a more integrated transport solution now.

Tesla Model 3 will be retailing for $35,000 in 2017. There's no possibility about it, they are already building the battery factory in Arizona that will employ 6,500 people.

Oh I'm fully in support of proper integrated public transport, for example I think the state should go out and borrow 4billion at 1% (what our 10 years bonds are) to proceed with Dart Underground, Metro North and Metro West.

However all this talk that "no one will be able to drive due to x price" is at best myopic and at worse involving too much toking of a crack-pipe.

antoobrien · 25-02-2015 5:02pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Tesla Model 3 will be retailing for $35,000 in 2017. There's no possibility about it, they are already building the battery factory in Arizona that will employ 6,500 people.

Also the Toyota Mirai - a hydrogen powered car - is retailing for $57,000 to selected customers in California.

The British Government have announced an £11m investment in hydrogen filling stations - something that will probably be more compatible with current liquid fueled cars than batteries.

That's on top of the various biofuels, including the research into using whiskey waste to produce biofuels (more sustainable than ethanol as it doesn't divert food wheat to biofuel production).

what_traffic · 25-02-2015 6:21pm

Electric car's usually take up the same amount of space as combustion engine cars so still going to get the same car traffic.

Iwannahurl · 25-02-2015 6:21pm

ScumLord wrote: »

We can think it would be nice to have cities and towns that didn't rely on the car but the reality is the car is king and will remain king for the foreseeable future so we need to build infrastructure for it.

And there lies the fundamental folly of the whole enterprise.

I'll come back to it later when I have time.

Crumbs868 · 26-02-2015 7:04am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And there lies the fundamental folly of the whole enterprise.

I'll come back to it later when I have time.

Assuming bus is full, only one person in each car and we all drive large sized cars

death1234567 · 26-02-2015 9:40am

Zzippy wrote: »

With rising petrol prices etc many people simply won't be able to afford cars, or commuting long distances by car.

Absolute Nonsense.

People will always prefer their own personal form of transportation. Your car leaves when you want it to, drops you to the door of your office and goes home when you want it to. There are already hybrid, electric and hydrogen powered cars that are affordable and will these become more efficient over time.

Large scale public transport solutions only work where you have a large densely populated area, which due to the way planning is done in this country, we'll never have in Galway.

The idea that you can mitigate the need for a Bypass of Galway city by wasting millions on public transport is nonsense. Ideally you need a good combination of both but by just looking at the current layout of the city its obvious that it needs a ring road.

26-02-2015 10:57am

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Assuming bus is full, only one person in each car and we all drive large sized cars

Oh I hate that gif that the bus lovers throw around. Yeah cars take space but so what, using cars is far more convenient for most people for a vast array of reasons. Then you have to take into account that people commuting in from county Galway are never going to use any form of transport in large numbers except cars as buses are so far beyond impractical its not even worth talking about so we will need to plan infrastructure for cars simple as that.

Aside from wanting to go for a pint after work I have no idea why anyone who has parking at work or at the location they are going to would chose public transport over their car, its a mentality completely alien to me why people would make such a big compromise by choice.

Large scale pubic transport will never ever be the favored mode of transport in Galway city and country as (thankfully) it is not densely populated and cars are the perfect mode of transport for the layout.

snubbleste · 26-02-2015 11:05am

its a mentality completely alien to me why people would make such a big compromise by choice.

Maybe you should read more?

crusier · 26-02-2015 11:26am

I presume those advocating public transport are OK with a bus service running every 15 minutes from Carraroe and Clifden to cater for people west of the city. I presune they wouldnt expect them to be treated like second class citizens!

26-02-2015 11:33am

snubbleste wrote: »

Maybe you should read more?

All the reading in the world wont make me understand why someone would rather walk to a bus stop in the rain, stand in the rain waiting for a bus, pack into a bus full of other people and then walk from the bus stop to work in the rain rather than hop in a nice warm dry car right outside the door and drive to the door of work. Thats one small example never mind if you want to go somewhere after work, get a load of shopping, go for a spin somewhere at lunch etc etc.

Obviously not everyone has parking at work etc but given the choice why anyone would chose the bus is beyond me. That goes for cycling too why someone would put themselves through the hardship of cycling multiple km's when they could hop int he car is also something I will never get.

spurscormac · 26-02-2015 11:39am

The issue with all the routes so far is that they don't address the main issue of backed up traffic.
This traffic is backed up in numerous places at various times of the day. All of the routes have too few access & exit points and if implemented will simply move the pinch points to different spots accessing any new road.
If you want to avoid pinch points, design a system that upgrades multiple access roads to a new bypass to spread the volume of traffic as widely as possible (I'm thinking Knocknacarra side here).
And don't get me started on the junctions to access the road, they should only be slip roads on/off if you want traffic to move. But the concept of something other than traffic lights or roundabouts (or both) is probably alien to those who will draw up the plans.
NONE of the plans address the big issue of traffic attempting to get into the city itself at weekends, e.g. the headford road roundabout as far as wood quay.

Until a plan is devised that can alleviate both mid week and weekend traffic issues, the current plans should be rejected as unsuitable in addressing the needs of the city and county.

kippy · 26-02-2015 11:48am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And there lies the fundamental folly of the whole enterprise.

I'll come back to it later when I have time.

Unless you are suggesting light rail is the answer to our problems, roads, no matter what size, can be used for any number of types of transport, be that walking, cycling, cars, busses, motorbikes etc
So even if "cars" in their current guise may be moving aside the infrastructure they travel on can be used for many other modes of transport.

what_traffic · 26-02-2015 12:35pm

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

Obviously not everyone has parking at work etc but given the choice why anyone would chose the bus is beyond me. That goes for cycling too why someone would put themselves through the hardship of cycling multiple km's when they could hop int he car is also something I will never get.

I cant' believe it but I am starting to feel sorry for you.
Hardship? To be honest it sounds more like you are just a bit lazy.

I cycle to work 11km each way. Journeys times can be judged within + or - 5 mins, always moving, keeps one fit and healthy, fresh air, sun or rain on one's face etc etc

Mrs OBumble · 26-02-2015 1:33pm

Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »

All the reading in the world wont make me understand why someone would rather walk to a bus stop in the rain, stand in the rain waiting for a bus, pack into a bus full of other people and then walk from the bus stop to work in the rain rather than hop in a nice warm dry car right outside the door and drive to the door of work. Thats one small example never mind if you want to go somewhere after work, get a load of shopping, go for a spin somewhere at lunch etc etc.

Obviously not everyone has parking at work etc but given the choice why anyone would chose the bus is beyond me. That goes for cycling too why someone would put themselves through the hardship of cycling multiple km's when they could hop int he car is also something I will never get.

Did you miss the post a bit above where I described how much less-stressed my life became when my car was stolen and I was forced to walk or catch the bus for a few weeks? Have you ever considered just how stressful driving - and finding parking - actually is?

Did you miss the long-running "today's weather" thread, where is was clearly shown that it doesn't rain all the time, and that most journeys were undertaken without getting wet? Personally it's raining when I want to go home, I either wait 15 minutes (it usually stops) or get a taxi.

Do you exercise? Have you ever heard the phrase "obesity epidemic"? Have you noticed how much fatter people on average have got? Maybe google a bit to see what doctors are saying about the likely health impacts of this. Can you really not see that exercising while travelling to and from work is actually one of the most time-efficient approaches?

Do you know anyone who has epilepsy? They're not going to be driving anywhere for months (minimum) after having a seizure. Similarly various other disabilities - there are lots of people who will simply never, ever be driving themselves anywhere.

Do you realise that supermarkets do home delivery? Seriously, you give the Tesco lads a list and two hour time window when you WILL be at home, and they do the hard work for you. Priceless.

Have you ever looked hard at exactly what it costs you to run a car: not just petrol, but also insurance, maintenance, NCT, parking (and interest if you had to borrow to afford the car). There is some serious money involved. I did the sums years ago, and figured that renting a car every 3rd weekend would cost me less than just the cost of parking plus insurance. Granted, not everyone lives in the city centre - but I know a suburban accountant whose family choose to rent occasionally rather than run a 2nd car, for just that reason.

Obviously a car is necessary for some people's journeys, eg if you have several children to drop at a child-minder's before work, it's unlikely to be possible for you to carry everything.

But there are plenty of reasons to choose less-stress-than-driving options when you can.

WallyGUFC · 26-02-2015 1:53pm

Driving is stressful now? News to me. I really enjoy driving. Don't enjoy cycling though. I'd rather arrive at work in comfort than arrive soaked or (more often) having cycled right into a gale.

apoeiguq3094y · 26-02-2015 2:18pm

This thread is going to need its own bypass soon, to avoid all the non-bypass related posts.

kippy · 26-02-2015 2:21pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Did you miss the post a bit above where I described how much less-stressed my life became when my car was stolen and I was forced to walk or catch the bus for a few weeks? Have you ever considered just how stressful driving - and finding parking - actually is?

Did you miss the long-running "today's weather" thread, where is was clearly shown that it doesn't rain all the time, and that most journeys were undertaken without getting wet? Personally it's raining when I want to go home, I either wait 15 minutes (it usually stops) or get a taxi.

Do you exercise? Have you ever heard the phrase "obesity epidemic"? Have you noticed how much fatter people on average have got? Maybe google a bit to see what doctors are saying about the likely health impacts of this. Can you really not see that exercising while travelling to and from work is actually one of the most time-efficient approaches?

Do you know anyone who has epilepsy? They're not going to be driving anywhere for months (minimum) after having a seizure. Similarly various other disabilities - there are lots of people who will simply never, ever be driving themselves anywhere.

Do you realise that supermarkets do home delivery? Seriously, you give the Tesco lads a list and two hour time window when you WILL be at home, and they do the hard work for you. Priceless.

Have you ever looked hard at exactly what it costs you to run a car: not just petrol, but also insurance, maintenance, NCT, parking (and interest if you had to borrow to afford the car). There is some serious money involved. I did the sums years ago, and figured that renting a car every 3rd weekend would cost me less than just the cost of parking plus insurance. Granted, not everyone lives in the city centre - but I know a suburban accountant whose family choose to rent occasionally rather than run a 2nd car, for just that reason.

Obviously a car is necessary for some people's journeys, eg if you have several children to drop at a child-minder's before work, it's unlikely to be possible for you to carry everything.

But there are plenty of reasons to choose less-stress-than-driving options when you can.

I fall in the several children to drop in the morning category at the moment however there are a few things that really put me off cycling anyway, even if I were without the kids.
1. The woefully inadequate provisions made for cyclists around the town, and in the town centre (cycle lanes, lights, one way streets etc) granted this is all improving.
2. The poor "parking" options when it comes to bikes. They'll set up services bike racks for a sponsored "paid for" facility when it come to bike racks but don't seem to want to dedicate any space or shelter to "normal bikes".
3. The lack of facilities in offices for those that do cycle, particularly on bad days when showers might be useful. (Some employers, tbf do provide this)
4. Most importantly, I've a number of friends in Dublin, pretty much all of whom cycle, and pretty much all of whom, at this point, have come off the bikes either involved with cars or other road users. Some serious, some not so serious, and one whose life has changed forever after it all involving time off work, hospital time and bills etc etc. Granted the same can happen in cars but generally you've some protection in cars etc etc
5. I don't find driving stressful and I pay for a parking spot in town.

Pretty much all of those make me less likely to cycle, oh yeah, and the weather. It does rain a lot!
Cars cost money - of course.

Redhairedguy · 26-02-2015 2:40pm

We've fallen into the old, viciously circular trap of car vs. bike debate once more. Unfortunately, not a traffic thread can go by without this age old dispute raising its pompous head. So I'm gonna have to ask that we get this thread back on track and keep to the original topic. If I have to ask again, there shall be wooden spoon related incidents (50 shades of grey shhhhhtyle!)

ScumLord · 26-02-2015 2:42pm

Zzippy wrote: »

With rising petrol prices etc many people simply won't be able to afford cars, or commuting long distances by car, in the future - we should be planning for that now and putting in place infrastructure and systems that get people out of cars and onto more efficient forms of transport. The foreseeable future is a few decades - the car may only be king for a small part of that. And I say that as someone who drives to work every day and relies on a car all the time.

Like it's already been pointed out cars are getting much more efficient. Just look at F1 today, they use a 1.6 litre engine backed up with turbos and electric motors and it looks like they're set to break some long standard lap time records this year.

The car will always be there and always be desirable. If anything I can see private cars becoming part of an all encompassing public transport system. By that I mean you'll be able to hand control of your car over to a traffic management system in cities, eventually I think you won't be allowed to drive your own car in a city or on some public roads a peak times.

Battery technology is set to take a big leap providing more power at a fraction of the weight of modern batteries.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when I prefer to use public transport, it's more convenient and less hassles, in big cities like London that have good transport networks it almost seems pointless having a car. But for the countryside, towns and cities that don't have good public transport the car is still the best option.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Did you miss the post a bit above where I described how much less-stressed my life became when my car was stolen and I was forced to walk or catch the bus for a few weeks? Have you ever considered just how stressful driving - and finding parking - actually is?

I don't find driving stressful at all, quite the opposite. Public transport is stressful, the waiting around, being at the mercy of another persons schedule, other people, the possibility of getting bookings wrong, they screw you on the price of everything once they know you're stuck waiting for them (airport prices), other people, uncomfortable seats, a cheap plane seat needs additional public transport to actually get you where you want to go so finding transfers, working your travel around the schedules of that other transport, all the other people you'll have to deal with there too.

antoobrien · 26-02-2015 2:42pm

spurscormac wrote: »

The issue with all the routes so far is that they don't address the main issue of backed up traffic.
This traffic is backed up in numerous places at various times of the day. All of the routes have too few access & exit points and if implemented will simply move the pinch points to different spots accessing any new road.
If you want to avoid pinch points, design a system that upgrades multiple access roads to a new bypass to spread the volume of traffic as widely as possible (I'm thinking Knocknacarra side here).
And don't get me started on the junctions to access the road, they should only be slip roads on/off if you want traffic to move. But the concept of something other than traffic lights or roundabouts (or both) is probably alien to those who will draw up the plans.
NONE of the plans address the big issue of traffic attempting to get into the city itself at weekends, e.g. the headford road roundabout as far as wood quay.

Until a plan is devised that can alleviate both mid week and weekend traffic issues, the current plans should be rejected as unsuitable in addressing the needs of the city and county.

How would you change any of the proposed routes to achieve this?

?Cee?view · 26-02-2015 2:44pm

antoobrien wrote: »

How would you change any of the proposed routes to achieve this?

I thanked this post for actually addressing the topic of the thread.

apoeiguq3094y · 26-02-2015 3:08pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Like it's already been pointed out cars are getting much more efficient. Just look at F1 today, they use a 1.6 litre engine backed up with turbos and electric motors and it looks like they're set to break some long standard lap time records this year.

The car will always be there and always be desirable. If anything......................................
all the other people you'll have to deal with there too.

Redhairedguy wrote: »

We've fallen into the old, viciously circular trap of car vs. bike debate once more. Unfortunately, not a traffic thread can go by without this age old dispute raising its pompous head. So I'm gonna have to ask that we get this thread back on track and keep to the original topic. If I have to ask again, there shall be wooden spoon related incidents (50 shades of grey shhhhhtyle!)

No matter what route it uses, the fact that the bypass will provide a usable way across the river should dramatically ease traffic problems.

what_traffic · 26-02-2015 3:26pm

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

No matter what route it uses, the fact that the bypass will provide a usable way across the river should dramatically ease traffic problems.

Yes naturally enough it would as you are adding road capacity - but for how long is the question? and at what cost?

spurscormac · 26-02-2015 4:21pm

antoobrien wrote: »

How would you change any of the proposed routes to achieve this?

Firstly, I'm not talking about changing the proposed routes, am talking about a completely different approach.

I haven't looked into it in too much detail yet, but off the top of my head, improve a number of the currently existing back roads from Knocknacarra / Barna road to connect to the Moycullen Road. They are already used as rat runs by people looking to avoid the worst of the congestion.
Wherever you place the new road, branch off these roads with slip roads onto it.
I haven't thought about the other side of the river yet, but surely there must be something similar done - and push it out further or reuse the existing road linking the Tuam road, through Parkmore and onto Briarhill rather than ploughing through the racecourse.

antoobrien · 26-02-2015 4:33pm

spurscormac wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not talking about changing the proposed routes, am talking about a completely different approach.

I haven't looked into it in too much detail yet, but off the top of my head, improve a number of the currently existing back roads from Knocknacarra / Barna road to connect to the Moycullen Road. They are already used as rat runs by people looking to avoid the worst of the congestion.
Wherever you place the new road, branch off these roads with slip roads onto it.
I haven't thought about the other side of the river yet, but surely there must be something similar done - and push it out further or reuse the existing road linking the Tuam road, through Parkmore and onto Briarhill rather than ploughing through the racecourse.

Not an unreasonable set of suggestions, some of which are actually parts of some of the routes. If I get what you're saying correctly, the suggested connections are not good enough on either side of the river and there is are items that could be done anyways?

After the consultation, there were new maps published that have more detail on the routes. The blue route includes new access (apparently directly requested by the IDA) to the Parkmore & Ballybrit estates. IMO some of these new connections need to be introduced regardless of what approach is taken.

Zzippy · 26-02-2015 4:34pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Absolute Nonsense.

People will always prefer their own personal form of transportation. Your car leaves when you want it to, drops you to the door of your office and goes home when you want it to. There are already hybrid, electric and hydrogen powered cars that are affordable and will these become more efficient over time.

Large scale public transport solutions only work where you have a large densely populated area, which due to the way planning is done in this country, we'll never have in Galway.

The idea that you can mitigate the need for a Bypass of Galway city by wasting millions on public transport is nonsense. Ideally you need a good combination of both but by just looking at the current layout of the city its obvious that it needs a ring road.

I never actually said "no bypass", but thanks for misconstruing what I did say. As an aside, electric cars may become more viable alright, but rising oil prices don't just affect the price of petrol - the price of electricity is going to rise too, making those electric cars not quite as miraculous as you seem to think they will be.
Getting away from the car v bus argument wrt convenience, on a policy level we should be encouraging greater use of public transport/cycling for a myriad of reasons, and my point was that the current public consultation pretty much ignores public transport/cycling - there should be an integrated approach which includes all modes of transport, not just a car-driven singleminded focus on a bypass. That was my point.

antoobrien · 26-02-2015 4:41pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Getting away from the car v bus argument wrt convenience, on a policy level we should be encouraging greater use of public transport/cycling for a myriad of reasons, and my point was that the current public consultation pretty much ignores public transport/cycling - there should be an integrated approach which includes all modes of transport, not just a car-driven singleminded focus on a bypass. That was my point.

Considering they haven't actually published a proposed solution, it's more than jumping the gun to suggest that they are focusing on the provision of a bypass.

One of the reasons for the focus on road routes for the consultation is that a new road will affect significantly more property than the provision of cycle lanes or bus lanes, a fact that is being conveniently ignored by people that appear to have an agenda against any new road.

But seriously what did you want, a chance to see plans for bus lanes or cycle lanes? It's not like there haven't been a fair few documents published about it, such as the Smarter Travel Money Grab Plan that actually has a fairly comprehenshive list of those types of things.

Outer City Bypass

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