Security IP cameras network

Irish Stones · 01-02-2015 6:57pm #1

Hi all,
I would like to setup a security cameras network for my home.
I would use IP Full HD cameras with an NVR to record the events. I don't know how many cameras I will use, but they could be anything between 4 and 6. The NVR that I have found can manage up to 9 cameras.
I cannot run the cables from the cameras to the NVR so I have thought to use the mains to carry the signals to the NVR. Each camera will have its own powerline module, then another powerline module will be at the "receiving" end of the setup.
This last module will be connected to my modem-router which, in turn, will be connected to the NVR. From this device I will get images and videos on a remote PC or a smartphone.
I have been told that one powerline module can "receive" the signals from more modules sending data. Is that true, or would I need a receiving module for each transmitting module?
I don't know much about powerline modules. Are these modules able to manage PoE for the IP cameras? This would make the setup easier.
Is there a model of powerline module that works better than the others?
Does something like the schematic below make any sense?
Should the modem-router have high-end specifications to cope with a huge data flow?
Every advice will be welcome.
Thanks a lot in advance!

KoolKid · 01-02-2015 7:01pm

I wouldn't recommend powerline adapters at all.It would be better to run them all to a POE switch or direct to the NVR with a built in POE.

ED E · 01-02-2015 8:58pm

There are homeplugs with PoE injection, but they're £55 per unit, you can get a pair of regular ones for less than £30.

Homeplugs work on a shared medium, so you cant have 2x receivers, its all one big mesh. And as such they are half duplex. So say you have a pair they can do 200Mbps(If you're lucky), add another it goes to 100Mbps, add another it goes to 50Mbps, another 25......

With 6 cameras the throughput wouldnt be great, and if there were any existing wiring issues it'd all just fall over. As Koolkid said, get a PoE switch and run cable out to all the cameras, much better solution.

As for the router, just make sure it has gigabit lan ports, not fast ethernet ones and that your PoE switch has at least one gigabit uplink port.

Irish Stones · 01-02-2015 9:50pm

Yes, I would love to run the cables because I know it's the best solution, but it's close to impossible, that's why I would use powerlines.
As a second option I would go with wi-fi cameras, but I am afraid they wouldn't cover the distance I need.

ED E · 02-02-2015 12:01am

Is it a very large site? Remember homeplugs need to be on the same electrical board to function (can be different ring mains).

If I were you I'd do a mix. 2-3 wifi units close to the router and 2-3 units on homeplugs for the further positions.

degsie · 02-02-2015 1:52am

Irish Stones wrote: »

Yes, I would love to run the cables because I know it's the best solution, but it's close to impossible, that's why I would use powerlines.
As a second option I would go with wi-fi cameras, but I am afraid they wouldn't cover the distance I need.

If you want to go totally wireless, think about moving your router to a more 'central' location to maximise coverage or use wireless AP's to extend wifi coverage.

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 8:20am

ED E wrote: »

Is it a very large site? Remember homeplugs need to be on the same electrical board to function (can be different ring mains).

If I were you I'd do a mix. 2-3 wifi units close to the router and 2-3 units on homeplugs for the further positions.

No, it's a quite average sized house, but I'd have too many walls to run along and go through, so running the cables isn't an easy option.
As you have probably noticed, I live in Italy (I am Italian) and over here houses are built in bricks and reinforced concrete (concrete with steel rods inside), so walls can be quite tricky to go through, and likewise the wi-fi signal could have some problems to cover long distances.

The electrical board is one for the whole house, the wires are in good conditions and of generous sections.
The idea of a mixed setup is interesting! Thanks!

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 8:27am

degsie wrote: »

If you want to go totally wireless, think about moving your router to a more 'central' location to maximise coverage or use wireless AP's to extend wifi coverage.

Yes, I know that the router should be in a central position in respect to the cameras, but the central position of the house isn't the same place where I would like to put the recording system.
The system would be very very close to one of the cameras (just an external wall of the house in between) and nearly equidistant from all other cameras.
A range extender could be a solution, thanks!

mass_debater · 02-02-2015 8:34am

Running cables is the only way guaranteed to work, homeplugs and wireless are half duplex which brings about lots of complexities and will end up being hit or miss. You could end up with a very slow unusable network.

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 8:39am

mass_debater wrote: »

Running cables is the only way guaranteed to work, homeplugs and wireless are half duplex which brings about lots of complexities and will end up being hit or miss. You could end up with a very slow unusable network.

Dardania · 02-02-2015 9:30am

Another way to do it would be to use storage in the cameras rather than a NVR...reduce peak data transfer

I use powerplugs in my home - it's actually not too bad. I have one at the router, which provides net access to one upstairs for a ps3, and another one in the attic which has a mac mini for apple tv streaming.

So far, very happy with them

Have a look at ones like these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TL-PA6010KIT-Powerline-Multiple-Configuration/dp/B00CMO839C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422865789&sr=8-1&keywords=TL-PA6010

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 10:26am

Dardania wrote: »

Another way to do it would be to use storage in the cameras rather than a NVR...reduce peak data transfer

This solution wouldn't allow me to have full control on what's going on. I would like to access the cameras any moment and see what they see, or access the NVR and see what they have seen.

I use powerplugs in my home - it's actually not too bad. I have one at the router, which provides net access to one upstairs for a ps3, and another one in the attic which has a mac mini for apple tv streaming.

So far, very happy with them

Have a look at ones like these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TL-PA6010KIT-Powerline-Multiple-Configuration/dp/B00CMO839C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422865789&sr=8-1&keywords=TL-PA6010

It seems thay have a high speed data transfer, but I don't know if they could cope with an array of full HD cameras...

Thanks, you are all extremely kind!

Dardania · 02-02-2015 10:29am

Irish Stones wrote: »

This solution wouldn't allow me to have full control on what's going on. I would like to access the cameras any moment and see what they see, or access the NVR and see what they have seen.

It seems thay have a high speed data transfer, but I don't know if they could cope with an array of full HD cameras...

Thanks, you are all extremely kind!

I know with my Foscam 9831W, you can set up other cameras to be viewed through it's interface - see screenshot here:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_m16_YxsBJsw%2FSlZiA11So_I%2FAAAAAAAAI6w%2F1n7d1F-vEjA%2Fs1600-h%2FScreenShot017.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gadgetvictims.com%2F2009%2F06%2Ffoscam-wireless-pan-tilt-ip-camera.html&h=523&w=800&tbnid=YjXjN4I5xE3GdM%3A&zoom=1&docid=G0MTc59hCGaeNM&ei=JkPPVKuWK4GzUs3FgfgM&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=785&page=3&start=48&ndsp=25&ved=0COgBEK0DMD8

DO the tot of bandwidth required for HD video on a camera - I think my 960p camera peaks at 4Mbit - in context of devices that claim to do 600MBit, there should be plenty of headroom...

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 1:13pm

I have read the article you linked and also the specifications of the TP-Link powerlines.
If what is promised is true, then those modules could do the trick.
As far as I have understood, each module can be both on the "transmitting" side or the "receiving" side.
So, say that I buy two pairs I will have four modules, and I could connect three cameras on one side and the router on the other side. Is that correct?
I will also have to replace my current router (supplied by my provider) with a faster (Gigabyte) one, won't I?

Dardania · 02-02-2015 2:22pm

Irish Stones wrote: »

I have read the article you linked and also the specifications of the TP-Link powerlines.
If what is promised is true, then those modules could do the trick.
As far as I have understood, each module can be both on the "transmitting" side or the "receiving" side.
So, say that I buy two pairs I will have four modules, and I could connect three cameras on one side and the router on the other side. Is that correct?
I will also have to replace my current router (supplied by my provider) with a faster (Gigabyte) one, won't I?

Correct on your configuration - when configuring these you don't so much care which one is transmit or receive - they all transmit & receive

Regarding replacing your router, you probably don't need to - it depends on where the peak of your traffic is. These devices all operate to give you a layer 2 switched network, so nothing is being routed. And if you do in fact get a NVR, the peak of the traffic is there so it should be capable of taking the high speed transfer.

If you were going to record offsite e.g. using a cloud provider...you may need to review your router, but typically it's the internet upload speed that is the limitation there.

Be aware with these cameras that one normally records only when there is motion...so unless there is continuous motion you're not going to have continuous recording, diversifying your throughput again...

Irish Stones · 02-02-2015 2:33pm

Dardania wrote: »

Be aware with these cameras that one normally records only when there is motion...so unless there is continuous motion you're not going to have continuous recording, diversifying your throughput again...

Wow, that is the key to all!
Not all cameras will transfer data at the same time, so the amount of data on the network will be that of one or two cameras, not 5 or 6.
I haven't thought about this, thanks!

rugrat69 · 02-02-2015 10:31pm

Have you any type of cable in proximity to where u want to position some of the cameras either coax, electrical, telephone or bell wire if so you can run Ethernet and Poe up to 500mtrs with a product called Mobotix 2 wire put a switch at the end of it Poe and it will work

Mobotix.com

Irish Stones · 03-02-2015 8:20am

rugrat69 wrote: »

Have you any type of cable in proximity to where u want to position some of the cameras either coax, electrical, telephone or bell wire if so you can run Ethernet and Poe up to 500mtrs with a product called Mobotix 2 wire put a switch at the end of it Poe and it will work

Mobotix.com

Interesting device, but it says "you can utilize a two-wire cable that is no longer in use".
I have mains wires nearby the spots where I want to position the cameras, but they are in use, so probably I can't use these boxes...

Irish Stones · 03-02-2015 8:23am

Dardania wrote: »

Be aware with these cameras that one normally records only when there is motion...so unless there is continuous motion you're not going to have continuous recording, diversifying your throughput again...

On a second thought, though, it's not the camera that detects the motion, it's the NVR, so alll the cameras will always feed the data stream into the NVR and the used bandwidth can be higher than we thought.

Irish Stones · 13-02-2015 9:00pm

Some days ago I sent an email to TP-Link to ask them whether the kit TP-PA6010K could be ideal for my needs, today they replied to my message and told me that a surveillance camera needs a reliable connection to the DVR and they do not recommend their products for such a solution, thus meaning that their products aren't reliable enough?

I have read many reviews of people that are satisfied with those modules when they use them for gaming or viewing FullHD movies across the house.
Isn't that the same thing as routing one or more cameras to a DVR?

mass_debater · 13-02-2015 9:19pm

Irish Stones wrote: »

Some days ago I sent an email to TP-Link to ask them whether the kit TP-PA6010K could be ideal for my needs, today they replied to my message and told me that a surveillance camera needs a reliable connection to the DVR and they do not recommend their products for such a solution, thus meaning that their products aren't reliable enough?

I have read many reviews of people that are satisfied with those modules when they use them for gaming or viewing FullHD movies across the house.
Isn't that the same thing as routing one or more cameras to a DVR?

Doubtful, they mean homeplugs and wireless are not options you should be using for security for various reasons

Irish Stones · 13-02-2015 11:55pm

mass_debater wrote: »

Doubtful, they mean homeplugs and wireless are not options you should be using for security for various reasons

The only reason I can think of is that in the case of a power outage the whole system is out of order, even if the DVR is supplied by a UPS.
No other reasons come to my mind.

mass_debater · 14-02-2015 12:16am

Irish Stones wrote: »

The only reason I can think of is that in the case of a power outage the whole system is out of order, even if the DVR is supplied by a UPS.
No other reasons come to my mind.

The very same reasons the HSE don't like their employees using home Wi-Fi for their laptops, tell them they have to plug in. Homeplugs are a radio frequency transmitted through your electrical cabling, can be intercepted or blocked. No point in employing security measures and then using a method that has any risk.

degsie · 14-02-2015 12:33am

mass_debater wrote: »

The very same reasons the HSE don't like their employees using home Wi-Fi for their laptops, tell them they have to plug in. Homeplugs are a radio frequency transmitted through your electrical cabling, can be intercepted or blocked. No point in employing security measures and then using a method that has any risk.

You do understand that homeplugs uses 'wired' broadcast media, so very different from radio frequencies. You need to back up this statement rather than trying to scare ppl.

mass_debater · 14-02-2015 9:27am

degsie wrote: »

You do understand that homeplugs uses 'wired' broadcast media, so very different from radio frequencies. You need to back up this statement rather than trying to scare ppl.

Homeplugs transmit a radio signal through your electrical cabling. You are right the risk is minimal but nothing beats the security of a secure cable (metal conduit) which has end to end connectivity and can power the device (POE)

Irish Stones · 14-02-2015 4:35pm

Wait a minute, please, there must be some misunderstanding.
The power modules I am talking about do not transmit any radio signal through or along the wire, so no risks for people around and the signal cannot be intercepted along its way to the receiver.
These modules modulate and route an ethernet signal ON the mains cables. I am quite positive that no radiations higher than those already emitted by the cables themselves travel in the domestic environment.
Wi-Fi signal from PC and modem is different, it travels in the air, through walls and ceilings and can be detected or blocked by almost anybody.

The TP-PA6010 modules are not Wi-Fi extenders, they are signal modulators, so they send the signal ON the cable, from end to end. Probably the only limit is that they cannot power the device.

gctest50 · 14-02-2015 5:12pm

degsie wrote: »

You do understand that homeplugs uses 'wired' broadcast media, so very different from radio frequencies. You need to back up this statement rather than trying to scare ppl.

bit more

mass_debater · 14-02-2015 5:27pm

No misunderstanding at all, they send a radio signal which does not go from end to end, it does a loop around the building through your electrical cabling. I'll not mention the mayhem and problems they cause, you can read it here
http://www.ban-plt.org.uk/what.php

Ethernet is a 100mhz radio signal btw, close to the same frequency as FM radio.

Mr. G · 15-02-2015 12:47am

mass_debater wrote: »

The very same reasons the HSE don't like their employees using home Wi-Fi for their laptops, tell them they have to plug in. Homeplugs are a radio frequency transmitted through your electrical cabling, can be intercepted or blocked. No point in employing security measures and then using a method that has any risk.

But if you gain access to the wireless network that's on the same network as the LAN then that's completely pointless. However I do see the risks of doing so on any wireless network (particularly public ones).

mass_debater · 15-02-2015 1:07am

Mr. G wrote: »

But if you gain access to the wireless network that's on the same network as the LAN then that's completely pointless. However I do see the risks of doing so on any wireless network (particularly public ones).

True. It's a VPN from the laptop, they just don't want it over home wireless but it is fully encrypted end to end so other devices on the network don't really pose a risk. It's just a extra security measure but I can see the point when the information is sensitive.

Irish Stones · 15-02-2015 9:18am

mass_debater wrote: »

No misunderstanding at all, they send a radio signal which does not go from end to end, it does a loop around the building through your electrical cabling. I'll not mention the mayhem and problems they cause, you can read it here
http://www.ban-plt.org.uk/what.php

Ethernet is a 100mhz radio signal btw, close to the same frequency as FM radio.

That website is interesting, I have read some articles and watched soome videos (others are private).
I know two persones, both giving their service for ambulances and fire brigades.
I will ask them if they have ever experienced any kind of trouble with communications during their several-years long services.
I will let you know.

EDIT: Why don't the same troubles and problems appear with DSL communications?
Phone wires weren't designed for carrying high frequency signals for long distances. Originally the phone wires were conceived and laid out to carry the analog signal of the human voice, very few kHz, just like the mains wires were thought and laid out to carry power only. Those phone wires aren't shielded, yet they are now used to carry signals up to several hundreds MHz for 1 or 2 km. How don't they radiate any interference around them?

Security IP cameras network

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