Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Options
1…4445474950…335

Comments

  • Options
    #1382
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spikeS wrote: »
    Married couples always get priority, children and parent's act won't change that. So it's still harder to adopt as a guy couple unfortunately, once the referendum goes though that priority get evened.


    You have a source for all this?


  • Options
    #1383
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Nodin wrote: »
    You have a source for all this?

    They always said married couples get priority, if it's not true can you show it, gay couples won't get that priority till the referendum gets passed.


  • Options
    #1384
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    floggg wrote: »
    Those examples don't make any sense.

    Firstly, neither example bears any relationship to how our legal and political systems work.

    Secondly, you aren't taking about rights or about discrimination. Just because you want to do something, doesn't mean you have the right to do it.

    Driving on the right side of the road isn't a right. Neither is owning a gatling gun (in this country anyway).

    In each case, the State has laid down particular rules which apply equally to all citizens without regard to race, colour, creed gender etc - but does rules don't infringe on anybody's rights.

    It would have helped if you had read my entire post and read that I had called them two extreme examples.

    In Ireland today, neither are applicable but if (and I am quoting you)
    "The constitution should be drafted in such a way so as to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority."

    No matter how that is phrased in any constitution someone will use it as a justifiable reason to look for their own particular brand of what they think is acceptable.

    I am not making any reference to LBGT or this referendum, just merely pointing out that when the Constitution is changed to reflect minority views, then it leaves it open to all different interpretations.

    I never said it was a good thing, just that it leaves the Constitution more open to the "law of unintended consequences" that it already is.


  • Options
    #1385
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Flem31 wrote: »
    It would have helped if you had read my entire post and read that I had called them two extreme examples.

    In Ireland today, neither are applicable but if (and I am quoting you)
    "The constitution should be drafted in such a way so as to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority."

    No matter how that is phrased in any constitution someone will use it as a justifiable reason to look for their own particular brand of what they think is acceptable.

    I am not making any reference to LBGT or this referendum, just merely pointing out that when the Constitution is changed to reflect minority views, then it leaves it open to all different interpretations.

    I never said it was a good thing, just that it leaves the Constitution more open to the "law of unintended consequences" that it already is.
    Judging by the polls, the constitutional change reflects majority views.

    Judge Liam McKechnie, ruling on a surrogacy custody battle some time ago, ruled that the biological mother was not the birth mother for the purposes of Article 41. In that context, the existing Constitution does not protect the biological parental link, contrary to what Iona are saying.


  • Options
    #1386
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    Judging by the polls, the constitutional change reflects majority views.

    Judge Liam McKechnie, ruling on a surrogacy custody battle some time ago, ruled that the biological mother was not the birth mother for the purposes of Article 41. In that context, the existing Constitution does not protect the biological parental link, contrary to what Iona are saying.

    :confused:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1387
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    They always said married couples get priority, if it's not true can you show it, gay couples won't get that priority till the referendum gets passed.

    Do you have a source for what you are saying?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1388
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spikeS wrote: »
    They always said married couples get priority, if it's not true can you show it, gay couples won't get that priority till the referendum gets passed.

    I'm asking you to back up this post -
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94059264&postcount=1241
    Do you have a source that backs it?


  • Options
    #1389
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Apparently countries with marriage equality have lower rates of lone-parenthood.

    http://www.gaire.com/db2-images/22566570_lone_parents.png


  • Options
    #1390
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Do you have a source for what you are saying?

    Do you, married couples get priority have you a source saying they will still discriminate once their is gay married couples?

    Discrimination law means once they referendum comes in it will finally be equal when adopting, you cannot deny if the referendum passes gay couples will have a far easier time adopting, they can still adopt if the referendum fail but it will be way harder unfortunately


  • Options
    #1391
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm asking you to back up this post -
    Do you have a source that backs it?

    Do you have one they will be allowed to discrimate against gay married couples once the referendum passes? If it fails they won't be a married couple so will be behind a male/female married couple.

    We need the referendum to pass for an equal adoption chance for gay couples


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1392
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spikeS wrote: »
    Do you have one they will be allowed to discrimate against gay married couples once the referendum passes? If it fails they won't be a married couple so will be behind a male/female married couple.

    We need the referendum to pass for an equal adoption chance for gay couples

    You're the one making claims, not me. Please back it up.


  • Options
    #1393
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Nodin wrote: »
    You're the one making claims, not me. Please back it up.

    Common logical sense, married couples get priority in adoption, if the referendum fails gay couples are not married and are a lower priority but if it passes anti discrimination law makes it so gay and straight married couples are equal and adoption is far easier.


  • Options
    #1394
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    Zen65 wrote: »
    Clearly you do not.

    Either it is a rational argument, or it is not. If not, why not?

    I found this persuasive:

    http://goo.gl/U27D7W

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/fundamental-rights/files/networkcommentaryfinal_en.pdf
    Reviewing the situation in 2002, the Court observes that Article 12 secures the fundamental right of a man and woman to marry and to found a family. The second aspect is not however a condition of the first and the inability of any couple to conceive or parent a child cannot be regarded as per se removing their right to enjoy the first limb of this provision.


  • Options
    #1395
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    Do you, married couples get priority have you a source saying they will still discriminate once their is gay married couples?

    Discrimination law means once they referendum comes in it will finally be equal when adopting, you cannot deny if the referendum passes gay couples will have a far easier time adopting, they can still adopt if the referendum fail but it will be way harder unfortunately

    I will repeat my question

    Do you have a source for what you are saying?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1396
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    Do you have one they will be allowed to discrimate against gay married couples once the referendum passes? If it fails they won't be a married couple so will be behind a male/female married couple.

    We need the referendum to pass for an equal adoption chance for gay couples

    Where is your source for claims about priority lists?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1397
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    Common logical sense, married couples get priority in adoption, if the referendum fails gay couples are not married and are a lower priority but if it passes anti discrimination law makes it so gay and straight married couples are equal and adoption is far easier.

    Where is your source for the claims you are making?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1398
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Where is your source for the claims you are making?

    Can you show that the referendum passing won't make it easier to adopt as a married couple, why do you think it's a bad thing there will no discrimination if the referendum passes, it's another reason to vote yes equal adoption chances


  • Options
    #1399
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    Can you show that the referendum passing won't make it easier to adopt as a married couple, why do you think it's a bad thing there will no discrimination if the referendum passes, it's another reason to vote yes equal adoption chances

    You're making claims. Provide sources for them.

    Otherwise we can just assume they are absolute nonsense.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1400
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You're making claims. Provide sources for them.

    Otherwise we can just assume they are absolute nonsense.



    aai.gov.ie/index.php/domestic-adoption/faq-domestic-adoption.html

    Here you go, married people are first only after will others be considered, when lgbt people can finally marry they can apply for equal adoption, if it fails adoption will be extremely harder.

    People need to know this as if the referendum fails it will be very hard for gay couples to adopt

    Edit: Also I don't like being dog piled on this, I am trying to help so people know how voting no will hurt equality and yes side are the ones attacking


  • Options
    #1401
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Speaking of which I'd really like to hear your response to me. An apology would suffice.

    And why do I owe you an apology for how society at large as made you feel :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1402
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    It really is entirely hypocritical of Breda O'Brien to argue against SSM on the basis of protecting the rights of the child by ensuring they have a mother and a father, while at the same time she would then prevent that very same child from having the right to marry their same sex partner as an adult. So the very child she is trying to ensure has the right to a mother and father, she will, depending on their sexual orientation, some day possibly argue they either should or should not have an equal right to marry.
    How anyone can say these people are not hiding behind latent homophobia is beyond me.


  • Options
    #1403
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    aai.gov.ie/index.php/domestic-adoption/faq-domestic-adoption.html

    Here you go, married people are first only after will others be considered, when lgbt people can finally marry can they apply for equal adoption, if it fails adoption will be extremely harder.

    People need to know this as if the referendum fails it will be very hard for gay couples to adopt

    Yes a,b,c,d is a list

    It is not a then b then c then d so your claims are nonsense.

    Basically everything you've been saying about adoption in this thread is wrong.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1404
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yes a,b,c,d is a list

    It is not a then b then c then d so your claims are nonsense.

    Married couples have priority it says it in the faq, until the referendum passes it's extremely hard for a gay couple to adopt, once it passes and they are a married couple it becomes as easy a straight married couple.

    The referendum needs to pass or otherwise it will be next to impossible to start a gay family with adoption. The referendum isn't needed for adoption but is needed for any chance of gay families getting a chance to adopt


  • Options
    #1405
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    Married couples have priority it says it in the faq, until the referendum passes it's extremely hard for a gay couple to adopt, once it passes and they are a married couple it becomes as easy a straight married couple.

    The referendum needs to pass or otherwise it will be next to impossible to start a gay family with adoption. The referendum isn't needed for adoption but is needed for any chance of gay families getting a chance to adopt

    Again No. You are making completely false statements. The FAQ doesnt say what you are saying at all. Plus the Children and family bill will change a lot of this.

    You are talking complete and utter nonsense.

    What you are saying is not true. You are spreading misinformation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1406
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    spikeS wrote: »
    Common logical sense, married couples get priority in adoption, if the referendum fails gay couples are not married and are a lower priority but if it passes anti discrimination law makes it so gay and straight married couples are equal and adoption is far easier.

    Here is #77 of the the Heads of the CHILDREN AND FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
    BILL 2014 http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf/Files/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf

    It is quite clear that if enacted - as it should be before the Referendum - the phrase 'or a couple who are civil partners of each other' {bold emphasis mine} will be inserted after the reference to married couples.
    This means that a couple who are married or a couple who are in a civil partnership may adopt as a couple. At no point does it state a married couple will be given preference.
    Head 77: Amendment of section 20, Authority’s power to make adoption order
    or recognise intercountry adoption effected outside the State
    Provide along the following lines:
    Section 20 of the Adoption Act 2010 is amended –
    (a) in subsection (1), by the insertion after “married couple” of “or a
    couple who are civil partners of each other”; and
    (b) in subsection (3), by the insertion after “married couple” of “or a
    couple who are civil partners of each other”.


    Now please stop spreading misinformation.

    The Referendum on Same-Sex Marriage will decide if couples of the same gender can get married. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Legislation will already have been enacted to allow couples in a Civil Partnership to adopt as a couple under the exact same criteria as applied to married couples.


  • Options
    #1407
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Here is #77 of the the Heads of the CHILDREN AND FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
    BILL 2014 justice.ie/en/JELR/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf/Files/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf

    It is quite clear that if enacted - as it should be before the Referendum - the phrase 'or a couple who are civil partners of each other' {bold emphasis mine} will be inserted after the reference to married couples.
    This means that a couple who are married or a couple who are in a civil partnership may adopt as a couple. At no point does it state a married couple will be given preference.




    Now please stop spreading misinformation.

    The Referendum on Same-Sex Marriage will decide if couples of the same gender can get married. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Legislation will already have been enacted to allow couples in a Civil Partnership to adopt as a couple under the exact same criteria as applied to married couples.

    The wording uses married cp is not married, until the referendum passes they are behind married couples for adoption.

    The Marriage equality referendum is not about adoption but it passing will have an effect on gay people being allowed to adopt easier and that's a good thing.


  • Options
    #1408
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    spikeS wrote: »
    The wording uses married cp is not married, until the referendum passes they are behind married couples for adoption.

    The Marriage equality referendum is not about adoption but it passing will have an effect on gay people being allowed to adopt easier and that's a good thing.

    Sweetest divine!

    It clearly says 'Married OR in a civil partnership' - I even highlighted the OR. This puts Married and Civil Partnered on an equal basis.

    They have to write it that way as it will be enacted before the effin referendum is held!


  • Options
    #1409
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    spikeS wrote: »
    The wording uses married cp is not married, until the referendum passes they are behind married couples for adoption.

    The Marriage equality referendum is not about adoption but it passing will have an effect on gay people being allowed to adopt easier and that's a good thing.

    No.

    You are spreading misinformation.

    There is no priority list.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1410
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Some links to surveys which find no damage to children from being raised by same-sex couples.

    American Psychological Association.

    Boston University, and the National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study here.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1411
    spikeS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    Some links to surveys which find no damage to children from being raised by same-sex couples.

    These studies usually have a degree of bias there are ones that show the reverse, be careful posting studies as fact as research bias a very real thing


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement