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Don't get in drivers' blind spots

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    #2
    D!armu!d
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭D!armu!d


    How about don't try to overtake/run over a cyclist who's going straight on through a junction when you want to turn right?


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    #3
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    I think it would be nice if lorries were equipped with side and rear cameras as standard, clear up this whole blind-spot thing altogether.

    You'd think that it wouldn't be such a big extra cost. If buses can have them so the driver can see who's smoking, it must not be too much?


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    #4
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    I think it would be nice if lorries were equipped with side and rear cameras as standard, clear up this whole blind-spot thing altogether.

    You'd think that it wouldn't be such a big extra cost. If buses can have them so the driver can see who's smoking, it must not be too much?

    Or if they could fit the mirrors they're meant to have

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2011/HGV-and-Class-VI-mirrors/


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    #5
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,964 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    Or if they could fit the mirrors they're meant to have

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2011/HGV-and-Class-VI-mirrors/
    That's for cyclops mirrors which are fitted to the front of a truck to enable the driver to see pedestrians/cyclists who cross immediately in front of the truck when it is stopped in heavy start/stop traffic. Those mirrors don't aid visibility in side blind spots.


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    #6
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,832 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    I said this before at that video but that is 100% cyclist error. You never, ever cycle up the inside or directly in front of a lorry. Ever. It is the stupidest thing you can ever do on a bike.

    Those mirrors aren't infallibale Pinch Flat, you can't look everywhere at the same time. It's very simple, almost all vehicles have a blind spot. Don't cycle in it. the end! Seriously though, I see cyclists cycling up the inside of HGV's in town all the time, or shimmy-ing up the inside to get a head at lights. They are the biggest, slowest and frequently loudest vehicles on the road. You cannot miss them at a junction! Seriously!

    As to the cameras, yes good idea but you can't drive ahead and look at them at the same time. Driving a lorry in a city/town is a scary experience. Cyclists disappear around the cab and you can't see where they are or when or where they go. I think awareness and consideration is needed on both sides, but having experience in both worlds here is definitely less awareness, knowledge and consideration from cyclist to HGV's than the other way round. There are dicky HGV drivers obviously, they're not all super considerate and safe but the vast and overwhelming majority are in my experience.


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    #7
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭whupdedo


    @niallbo


    It seems a bit silly to enforce trucking companies to spend money on cameras that aren't needed just because some idiot on a bike can't wait a few minutes or can't take the proper precautions to enable them to complete their journey safely without getting caught in a vehicles blind spot, every lorry has a blind spot, and cyclists who are unaware of this shouldn't be on the road


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    #8
    Crumbs868
    Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭Crumbs868


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    Or if they could fit the mirrors they're meant to have

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2011/HGV-and-Class-VI-mirrors/

    You would do well to find a lorry which doesn't have the mirror in your link. Standard on all new trucks and a DOE fail for the last 3 years

    Next time a bit of research would be advised before posting ill informed blanket insinuations about an industry


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    #9
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    http://youtu.be/Y9E1_1M-qhU

    Should be watched by all cyclists. As a regular myself I would never get up the inside of a hgv or a bus for that matter but I'm surprised the amount that do.


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    #10
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    whupdedo wrote: »
    @niallbo


    It seems a bit silly to enforce trucking companies to spend money on cameras that aren't needed just because some idiot on a bike can't wait a few minutes or can't take the proper precautions to enable them to complete their journey safely without getting caught in a vehicles blind spot, every lorry has a blind spot, and cyclists who are unaware of this shouldn't be on the road

    ......and perhaps drivers who don't take account of that fact in how they operate their vehicles should, equally, not be on the road?

    The Guards (and RSA, I think) ran an exercise in Dublin recently where cyclists were invited to sit in the cab of a truck to get the 'driver's eye view' - that was a good idea.

    What would have made it better would have been rounding up a few HGV drivers and sticking them on bikes so they can see things from the cyclist's perspective - but there again, that would have played against the narrative of cyclists' behaviour being the only behaviour in need of correction.


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    #11
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    You would do well to find a lorry which doesn't have the mirror in your link. Standard on all new trucks and a DOE fail for the last 3 years

    Next time a bit of research would be advised before posting ill informed blanket insinuations about an industry

    But does this not only apply to newer trucks? There are still plenty of older ones that escape this requirement due to their age

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/coroner-calls-for-law-on-truck-mirrors-190533.html

    Open to correction as ever though.


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    #12
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,235 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    But does this not only apply to newer trucks? There are still plenty of older ones that escape this requirement due to their age

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/coroner-calls-for-law-on-truck-mirrors-190533.html

    Open to correction as ever though.

    No, you are incorrect. Older trucks need to have the cyclops mirrors retro-fitted for DOE test. We have been fitting these for a few years now, with the oldest truck we done being a 1996 reg.


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    #13
    whupdedo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭whupdedo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ......and perhaps drivers who don't take account of that fact in how they operate their vehicles should, equally, not be on the road?

    The Guards (and RSA, I think) ran an exercise in Dublin recently where cyclists were invited to sit in the cab of a truck to get the 'driver's eye view' - that was a good idea.

    What would have made it better would have been rounding up a few HGV drivers and sticking them on bikes so they can see things from the cyclist's perspective - but there again, that would have played against the narrative of cyclists' behaviour being the only behaviour in need of correction.

    I agree, there are bad motorists as well as cyclists, but cyclists have the option to hang back in traffic to wait for a lorry to move on from a junction, they also have pretty much 360 vision which a trucker doesn't have, and a trucker can only be responsible for what he sees and what he can anticipate, cyclists have a clear advantage in city commuting, and should be more alert around lorries than they currently are


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    #14
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    No, you are incorrect. Older trucks need to have the cyclops mirrors retro-fitted for DOE test. We have been fitting these for a few years now, with the oldest truck we done being a 1996 reg.

    Ok thanks for claryfying that.


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    #15
    JPF82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭JPF82


    If you are a cyclist or any other road user, look at the mirrors of the lorry. If you can't see the driver in them, chances are they can't see you.

    Regardless of how much right you have to be in a certain position, there's no point being right if you're dead!

    All road users make errors at some stage. All categories of users have those who are crap / inconsiderate.

    I'm a casual cyclist myself as well as a petrol head. There has to be understanding from all sides.


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    #16
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,964 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ......The Guards (and RSA, I think) ran an exercise in Dublin recently where cyclists were invited to sit in the cab of a truck to get the 'driver's eye view' - that was a good idea.

    What would have made it better would have been rounding up a few HGV drivers and sticking them on bikes so they can see things from the cyclist's perspective - but there again, that would have played against the narrative of cyclists' behaviour being the only behaviour in need of correction.
    I don't think that would be particularly effective as I have no doubt the vast majority of truck drivers, if placed on a bicycle, would be very aware of where they position themselves in relation to blind spots. I used to drive buses and trucks and always felt that it was I who had to take most of be safety precautions and compromise when it came to cyclists and junctions. The left turn from Dorset Street to Gardiner Street could be particularly difficult as it had to be approached wide to make the turn. Many cyclists took this space as an opportunity to proceed. It's a horrible feeling seeing a cyclist disappear from view and waiting for them to come into sight again and that's in daylight - think about an unlit cyclist at night.

    It doesn't even have to be a truck. An over the shoulder check can't be carried out in a van so the driver is totally reliant on their nearside mirror. Even worse visibility again in a van with panelled rear doors or a full bulkhead.


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    #17
    JPF82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭JPF82


    If you are a cyclist or any other road user, look at the mirrors of the lorry. If you can't see the driver in them, chances are they can't see you.

    Regardless of how much right you have to be in a certain position, there's no point being right if you're dead!

    All road users make errors at some stage. All categories of users have those who are crap / inconsiderate.

    I'm a casual cyclist myself as well as a petrol head. There has to be understanding from all sides.


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    #18
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    I don't think that would be particularly effective as I have no doubt the vast majority of truck drivers, if placed on a bicycle, would be very aware of where they position themselves in relation to blind spots. I used to drive buses and trucks and always felt that it was I who had to take most of be safety precautions and compromise when it came to cyclists and junctions. The left turn from Dorset Street to Gardiner Street could be particularly difficult as it had to be approached wide to make the turn. Many cyclists took this space as an opportunity to proceed. It's a horrible feeling seeing a cyclist disappear from view and waiting for them to come into sight again and that's in daylight - think about an unlit cyclist at night.

    It doesn't even have to be a truck. An over the shoulder check can't be carried out in a van so the driver is totally reliant on their nearside mirror. Even worse visibility again in a van with panelled rear doors or a full bulkhead.

    It's about perspective - I don't doubt that most drivers know their blind spots and check them religiously - it's about artic drivers experiencing what cyclists experience when a truck is in their immediate vicinity.

    I just felt that as valuable and all that the exercise no doubt was it can be filed under the same heading as hi-viz and helmets in the cabinet marked "Cyclists are really the problem."


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    #19
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    whupdedo wrote: »
    It seems a bit silly to enforce trucking companies to spend money on cameras that aren't needed just because some idiot on a bike can't wait a few minutes or can't take the proper precautions to enable them to complete their journey safely

    "Idiot" is harsh. Many people who go up the inside are just inexperienced. And going up the inside of motorised traffic is, to say the least, a very common practice. A novice wouldn't know that it's a much worse idea when the other vehicle is a bus or truck.

    It does get a mention here, but it's a tiny mention compared with all the helmet boosting (complete with dubious 85% efficacy claim) and hi-viz boosting:
    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Wrecked/Downloads/Cycle%20safety%20booklet.pdf

    You'd never know that not passing a HGV or truck on the inside at a junction is easily in the top five most important bits of safety advice you'll get.

    (Quite poor punctuation in that document too. Commas in the wrong place, commas instead of full stops, "and or" instead of "and/or"; that sort of thing.)


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    #20
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,964 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ... it's about artic drivers experiencing what cyclists experience when a truck is in their immediate vicinity.....
    I'd imagine most truck drivers would come away from that wondering why on earth cyclists would place themselves in such danger. There's not really much a truck driver can do to change the environment or his position for the turn. As has been said earlier, a cyclist has 360 degree visibility and is on a vehicle with high manoeuvrability.

    tomasrojo wrote: »
    "Idiot" is harsh. Many people who go up the inside are just inexperienced...
    +1 .....and many of the fatalities from such incidents are female.


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    #21
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Of course one easy way to help sort this out would be to allow cyclists to make a left turn on red......

    .....of course this will immediately be conveyed by certain lobbies as cyclists being permitted to 'jump' red lights - Although I'm not sure that if such a turn could be done legally that it would actually constitute 'jumping' but some mouth-breathers would always see it that way even if the law was changed.

    Anyway, one of the reasons it can't be implemented is because of the danger of breaking the internet from the postings that would no doubt follow the proposal and implementation of such a measure.


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    #22
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    gadetra wrote: »
    I said this before at that video but that is 100% cyclist error. You never, ever cycle up the inside or directly in front of a lorry. Ever. It is the stupidest thing you can ever do on a bike.

    Those mirrors aren't infallibale Pinch Flat, you can't look everywhere at the same time. It's very simple, almost all vehicles have a blind spot. Don't cycle in it. the end! Seriously though, I see cyclists cycling up the inside of HGV's in town all the time, or shimmy-ing up the inside to get a head at lights. They are the biggest, slowest and frequently loudest vehicles on the road. You cannot miss them at a junction! Seriously!

    As to the cameras, yes good idea but you can't drive ahead and look at them at the same time. Driving a lorry in a city/town is a scary experience. Cyclists disappear around the cab and you can't see where they are or when or where they go. I think awareness and consideration is needed on both sides, but having experience in both worlds here is definitely less awareness, knowledge and consideration from cyclist to HGV's than the other way round. There are dicky HGV drivers obviously, they're not all super considerate and safe but the vast and overwhelming majority are in my experience.

    That makes far too much sense. Its better that everyone else changes their behaviour.


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    #23
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    I'd imagine most truck drivers would come away from that wondering why on earth cyclists would place themselves in such danger. There's not really much a truck driver can do to change the environment or his position for the turn. As has been said earlier, a cyclist has 360 degree visibility and is on a vehicle with high manoeuvrability.


    ..........

    As I said it's as much about vicinity / proximity as it is about blind spots - like yourself if I'm coming down the R132 I don't get to choose whether or not a truck overtakes me - plus how close he chooses to overtake me is largely determined by the driver - I can shift left only so far.

    Same way a truck and me on a roundabout - I don't get to choose the line the driver takes through the roundabout - particularly on the exit. All you can do is back off and stay as clear as you can, but that doesn't mean you'll get clear every time.


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    #24
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,235 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    "Idiot" is harsh. Many people who go up the inside are just inexperienced. And going up the inside of motorised traffic is, to say the least, a very common practice. A novice wouldn't know that it's a much worse idea when the other vehicle is a bus or truck

    To be honest if a supposedly rational human being can't immediately see that it might be a bad idea to sit in the blind spot of a HGV, then I'm sorry but idiot really is the correct word. Some things should be blindingly obvious.


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    #25
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    To be honest if a supposedly rational human being can't immediately see that it might be a bad idea to sit in the blind spot of a HGV, then I'm sorry but idiot really is the correct word. Some things should be blindingly obvious.
    I think perhaps you don't remember what being a novice (at any activity) is actually like.


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    #26
    Beer Assistant
    Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭Beer Assistant


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    http://youtu.be/Y9E1_1M-qhU

    Should be watched by all cyclists. As a regular myself I would never get up the inside of a hgv or a bus for that matter but I'm surprised the amount that do.

    Worst place in the city for this squeezing up the inside of large vehicles is just before the front entrance of Trinity where the pedestrian crossing is located, not a day goes by where a cyclist doesn't squirms up the inside one foot on the path leaning left to squeeze by, idiots just looking to get squashed.


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    #27
    trek climber
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭trek climber


    Is it just me, but I found that video clip hard to watch


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    #28
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,235 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    I think perhaps you don't remember what being a novice (at any activity) is actually like.

    Being a novice does not automatically mean losing the ability to open your eyes and see what is obvious.


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    #29
    Unknown Soldier
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭Unknown Soldier


    I tried find a full version of that video last night but failed. Did the cyclist go up the inside? Or was he there and then the truck came along?

    It seems the truck driver has been "charged" over the incident


    +1 on never going up the side of a very large vehicle. Ever.
    I learnt that in the most scariest way imaginable. I still shudder at the thought of what might have been. 'twas a bad judgement call on my behalf :/


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    #30
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    To be honest if a supposedly rational human being can't immediately see that it might be a bad idea to sit in the blind spot of a HGV, then I'm sorry but idiot really is the correct word. Some things should be blindingly obvious.

    What seems obvious to you and me is not always obvious to others. Clearly there are people on bikes who are also drive and have done a test and understand blind spots and still insist on going up on the inside of HGVs at really stupid places.

    But there are also people cycling who have never driven and have never recieved any instruction other than "wear a helmet" and "always keep in to the left" and who could be forgiven for believing this is all they need to do to keep safe.

    Also for some of us, our awareness of cab blind spots comes from playing with toy cars and toy trucks when we were younger. Ballpark, there is about 50% of the population who were less likely to be given toy trucks as Christmas presents and who missed that lesson as a result.


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    #31
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Being a novice does not automatically mean losing the ability to open your eyes and see what is obvious.

    Of course it does, because not all dangers are so obvious.

    Experience teaches us, for example, not to assume that a stopped HGV with no turning signal might not go straight ahead. The driver might be turning and simply have forgotten to put the indicator on, or he might cut the corner rather than pull wide while making the turn - that is not something that is immediately obvious, and can only be gained by experience and observation.

    Novices respond to signals / stimuli and make unnecessarily optimistic assumptions, about their safety and their mortality. Experience teaches us to temper our assumptions and think in terms of contingencies ('what if') rather than simply respond to the obvious. Also some responses which appear counter-intuitive can only be learned through the benefit of experience (yours, or someone who communicates it to you).

    To use an extreme example, compare the behaviour of an experienced soldier with that of a well trained but inexperienced one - they are absolutely poles apart......and to run this example to the limit of extremity, that's why D-Day was, largely, undertaken by inexperienced troops, because they would be oblivious to dangers that would be apparent to combat veterans.

    Experience will also teach you which routes are fast, which are safe and which aren't.


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