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Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

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    #62
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Are most people here are forgetting that this is private land. If we are going down the road of cleaning public spaces of religious icons, then surely we have to start with the oldest, that being newgrange. Then we can move onto dolmens and fairy rings. Finally, stage 3 of this cultural revolution will involve cutting down any cross or crucifix that disturbs the sentiments of the easily offended. We will then be all free, secular and equal together, Kumbaya My Lord biscuit...


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    #63
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    jank wrote: »
    Are most people here are forgetting that this is private land. If we are going down the road of cleaning public spaces of religious icons, then surely we have to start with the oldest, that being newgrange. Then we can move onto dolmens and fairy rings. Finally, stage 3 of this cultural revolution will involve cutting down any cross or crucifix that disturbs the sentiments of the easily offended. We will then be all free, secular and equal together, Kumbaya My Lord biscuit...

    My house is on private land, but I'd still need to get planning permission if I wanted to erect a giant biscuit or Hawaiian pizza made of steel to worship. Are you forgetting about planning permission?


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    #64
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    jank wrote: »
    Are most people here are forgetting that this is private land. If we are going down the road of cleaning public spaces of religious icons, then surely we have to start with the oldest, that being newgrange. Then we can move onto dolmens and fairy rings. Finally, stage 3 of this cultural revolution will involve cutting down any cross or crucifix that disturbs the sentiments of the easily offended. We will then be all free, secular and equal together, Kumbaya My Lord biscuit...

    People keep using this sort of thing as an example. They seem to have a self importance that makes them think that a cross has the same historical importance as the likes newgrange.

    A building with incredibly advanced engineering is equal to a steel cross.


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    #65
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    jank wrote: »
    Are most people here are forgetting that this is private land. If we are going down the road of cleaning public spaces of religious icons, then surely we have to start with the oldest, that being newgrange.

    What religion does Newgrange represent? I like it. We should keep it. Especially at this time of year. It's proof for the 'Jesus-is-the-reason-for-the-season' crew that they are wrong.

    Midwinter has been celebrated in Ireland for five thousand years.


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    #66
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    jank wrote: »
    Are most people here are forgetting that this is private land. If we are going down the road of cleaning public spaces of religious icons, then surely we have to start with the oldest, that being newgrange. Then we can move onto dolmens and fairy rings. Finally, stage 3 of this cultural revolution will involve cutting down any cross or crucifix that disturbs the sentiments of the easily offended. We will then be all free, secular and equal together, Kumbaya My Lord biscuit...
    :confused:

    The cross was illegally cut down.

    This wasn't the local council or government pulling it down.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #67
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I still can't believe someone managed to take an angle grinder all the way up Carrauntoohil...but I'm less surprised Google Chrome's spellchecker won't recognise it as a word. :pac:
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    well, someone else got a large cross all the way up there; an angle grinder was probably easier by comparison.

    i'd be curious if this was an act of well planned vandalism for the sake of vandalism, or an act of well planned vandalism for the sake of making a point about ireland's relationship with a patriarchical belief system.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Hate to inject a note of reality, but . . .

    While the obelisk in St Peter's square was arguably stolen, it was hardly stolen by Christians or by Christianity.

    It was originally erected by an unnamed Pharaoh at Heliopolis, about 2,400 BCE. The original purpose or signficance of this particular obelisk is not known, but Egyptian obelisks generally are thought to have been treated as personifications of the sun-god, and to have marked the entrances to temples.

    It was taken from Heliopolis around about the time of Christ on the orders of the Emperor Augustus - not a Christian - and reerected as the centrepiece of the Julian Forum at Alexandria.

    From there, it was taken to Rome in 37 CE on the orders of the Emperor Caligula - also not a Christian - and erected as an architectural feature at the centre of the Circus of Nero, which was a little to the south of where St Peter's Basilica now stands.

    The Circus became the site of numerous Christian martyrdoms. The tradition that says St. Peter was one of those martyred there is questionable, but the historicity of the martyrdoms generally, and their location, is not in any doubt. The Circus was abandoned in the second century, and over time the neighbouring cemetery spilled into the area, with tombs being erected among the ruins of the circus buildings. Part of the circus was incorporated into the first St Peter's Basilica when it was erected about two hundred years later, but the obelisk stayed where it was for another 1,200 years until the new St Peter's was built, when it was moved from the south side of the Basilica to the east front, to provide the focal point for the plaza.

    In so far as the oblelisk has acquired Christian signficance, it is as a "silent witness" to the martyrdom of Peter and the Roman Christian community. It is hardly fair to blame the Christians for this circumstance.

    Rome, in fact, has more Egyptian obelisks than any other city in the world, and indeed almost as many as the whole of Egypt today. But they were all brought there in pre-Christian times. Romans of the late republican period were fascinated by Egypt and all things Egyptian.

    Werent they tools to aid observations of the movement of astronomical/celestial bodies.
    TheFarrier wrote: »
    Hacksaw would take forever to take that cross out though, even an angle grinder would probably require 3/4 discs to chew it's way through it.
    My first thought was a consaw, but the bit I struggle with is, we hear on the news regularly-ish about experienced climbers getting lost/stuck on carrauntoohill in broad daylight, so how in the name of jaysus did some vandal make his way up at night, with a consaw(or angle grinder), chop down a cross, and return down the mountain unscathed??

    The mind boggles.

    Maybe they brought it up bit by bit on a number of journeys? ie not in pieces, just do it in a few trips? might be easier to drag back down in one go? on some kind of sled?


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    #68
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    lazygal wrote: »
    My house is on private land, but I'd still need to get planning permission if I wanted to erect a giant biscuit or Hawaiian pizza made of steel to worship. Are you forgetting about planning permission?

    No, I have no idea if planning permission was granted 30 years ago for this cross and if not then given the time frame involved usually means the statue of limitations has expired. This cross also replaced a wooden one that was there since the 50's.

    Still, this cross was on private land and whomever cut it down had no legal right or mandate to do so. I am sure even you guys can agree with that?


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    #69
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    People keep using this sort of thing as an example. They seem to have a self importance that makes them think that a cross has the same historical importance as the likes newgrange.

    A building with incredibly advanced engineering is equal to a steel cross.

    The premise is the same. Religious iconography in public places is bad right, therefore we should get rid. Fair is fair right? Those damm fairy rings, ruining my right to be at peace!!


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    #70
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    What religion does Newgrange represent? I like it. We should keep it. Especially at this time of year. It's proof for the 'Jesus-is-the-reason-for-the-season' crew that they are wrong.

    Midwinter has been celebrated in Ireland for five thousand years.

    I couldn't agree more! Yet, it has a pagan religious history, therefore in the new Ireland it has to go, for secularisation sake you know.

    We can get tips of the Chinese. They did a great job 40 years ago where they destroyed over 90% of religious building (monasteries, stupas, player flags etc.) in Tibet. Go visit the place sometime. I was there a few months ago and the place is dotted with ruins. Sad to see but no doubt the red army thought they were doing the ignorant natives a favour by making them more 'enlightened'!


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    #71
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    jank wrote: »
    The premise is the same. Religious iconography in public places is bad right, therefore we should get rid. Fair is fair right? Those damm fairy rings, ruining my right to be at peace!!

    If we were talking about tearing down churches you would have a point. Its a cross, a random cross.


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    #72
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,384 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    jank wrote: »
    No, I have no idea if planning permission was granted 30 years ago for this cross and if not then given the time frame involved usually means the statue of limitations has expired. This cross also replaced a wooden one that was there since the 50's.

    Yes, but it wouldn't mean a replacement cross would have planning permission. If your house burns down in a fire, you still have to go for planning permission to rebuild it, even if you're rebuilding it the exact same as the original. Not only that, but there is no "statute of limitations". If something that should have required planning has been up for 7 years, the Council cannot enforce that it be taken down or changed. However, there is still no planning permission for it, it's still against the law for it to be up, and any changes or modifications removes the 7 year enforcement period, meaning a replacement cross/structure could be ordered to be taken down by the Council.

    I'm not saying this applies to the cross or anything, just more of a general note on planning laws.


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    #73
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    If we were talking about tearing down churches you would have a point. Its a cross, a random cross.

    Exactly. No-one is talking about bulldozing Newgrange for the same reason no-one is talking about bulldozing Christchurch Cathedral or the high cross at Moone; we actually can recognise a part of Ireland's cultural history when we see it. This cross is not part of our cultural history, it is some bits of rotting metal that were put, without planning permission, on top of a mountain. If it were there for 500 years, or was a marker of some great martyrdom then there might be a case for it being part of our cultural background, but it wasn't. It stood for nothing that hasn't been stood for in more appropriate places in more aesthetic fashions.

    If the landowners want a cross re-erected that's up to them. If they don't give a toss what goes up then I think something secular would be better. If they don't want anything to be put there then that's ok too.


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    #74
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I wonder, how many Gardaí have been assigned to investigating the 800 or so children's remains in that septic tank in Tuam?
    Ahem!...2. 2 senior Gardai were assigned to review the medical records. Do you listen to the news at all? (I thought the bodies were interred beside a septic tank? That's what the Indo changed their story to anyway...)
    lazygal wrote: »
    My house is on private land, but I'd still need to get planning permission if I wanted to erect a giant biscuit or Hawaiian pizza made of steel to worship. Are you forgetting about planning permission?
    Oh right... your objections are solely on the grounds of planning permission? You are allowed to build objects without permission, provided they don't exceed certain specifications. 25 sq. metres of new house can be added without permission - unless they've altered the regs.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    If we were talking about tearing down churches you would have a point. Its a cross, a random cross.
    There was nothing random about the cross appearing on top of the mountain. Members of the local community carried it up in sections by hand.


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    #75
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Gardai arriving by helicopter to investigate who cut down a useless steel pole on private land.

    In so many ways, Father Ted was a documentary, not a comedy.

    Initially I was windering why in hell AI were bothering to make any noise about this, but having seen that they were in fact asked for a comment, then I see no reason why they wouldn't express their opinion.

    Let them put it back up, then make a complaint on the grounds that no PP was sought, and let them pay to pull it back down again. They won't be bothered paying to put it back up again.


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    #76
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    robindch wrote: »
    BTW, try cut down on the "you guys" kind of stuff - let's try and leave slip a little cheery winterval spirit, eh?

    Or else

    #veiled threat

    :)


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    #77
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    What religion does Newgrange represent?

    It represents the culture of primitive pygmies who gawked at the Sun in awe. Who probably were involved in child sacrifice and spent their lives enslaving and killing each other while building heaps of rubble for no particular good reason.

    An utterly pointless mound of rubble that has no real cultural value and one that I personally find offensive.


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    #78
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Username32 wrote: »
    Who probably were involved in child sacrifice and spent their lives enslaving and killing each other while building heaps of rubble for no particular good reason.
    I'm having a hard time distinguishing that from christianity, I must say.


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    #79
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm having a hard time distinguishing that from christianity, I must say.

    We both are.


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    #80
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    jank wrote: »
    The premise is the same. Religious iconography in public places is bad right, therefore we should get rid. Fair is fair right? Those damm fairy rings, ruining my right to be at peace!!

    You're just so bitter and silly.
    seamus wrote: »
    Gardai arriving by helicopter to investigate who cut down a useless steel pole on private land.

    In so many ways, Father Ted was a documentary, not a comedy.

    There's a satirical short film to be made in this.


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    #81
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm having a hard time distinguishing that from christianity, I must say.

    The main difference is that the people who built Newgrange made a corbelled roof that is still weatherproof after five millennia, whereas my aunt's local church is constantly begging for money to fix the roof.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If it was put up in 1976 it had no particular value. Does anybody claim ownership? Let the landowner, or their insurance company, decide if they want to replace it (if it was legally put there in the first place). If the State owns the land, there are procedures to follow to decide what, if anything to put there.


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    #83
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Username32 wrote: »
    It represents the culture of primitive pygmies who gawked at the Sun in awe. Who probably were involved in child sacrifice and spent their lives enslaving and killing each other while building heaps of rubble for no particular good reason.

    An utterly pointless mound of rubble that has no real cultural value and one that I personally find offensive.

    Primitive? At the winter solstice, the rays of the rising sun travel down a 19 metre shaft and illuminate the central chamber. Modern humans could probably manage this feat, but would it still work in five thousand years' time? It's a true wonder of human engineering.

    Mound of rubble?

    They may have been sun worshippers, but that makes an awful lot more sense than worshipping an imaginary deity, who'll send you to an imaginary punishment for all eternity if you don't worship it.


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    #84
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Username32 wrote: »
    Or women?

    Or men who have the right to be women?


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    #85
    Smiley92a
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Smiley92a


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Primitive? At the winter solstice, the rays of the rising sun travel down a 19 metre shaft and illuminate the central chamber. Modern humans could probably manage this feat, but would it still work in five thousand years' time? It's a true wonder of human engineering.

    Mound of rubble?

    They may have been sun worshippers, but that makes an awful lot more sense than worshipping an imaginary deity, who'll send you to an imaginary punishment for all eternity if you don't worship it.

    And in fairness, we'd probably die without the sun.


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    #86
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Primitive? At the winter solstice, the rays of the rising sun travel down a 19 metre shaft and illuminate the central chamber. Modern humans could probably manage this feat, but would it still work in five thousand years' time?

    Yes.

    Let's not get carried away. Newgrange is only impressive because it was made with primitive tools. We could today engineer something similar that is accurate to within microns and would stand for a million years without outside interference. Materials science is pretty damn fancy these days.


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    #87
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Username32 wrote: »
    It represents the culture of primitive.... .

    And yet they could seriously accurately map the passage of the sun, a related culture also transported 20-40 tonne stone 100s of miles to build the likes of stone henge.

    And sure while we're at it, the former inhabitants of Skara Brae were thick as ****e.

    Yeah, they hadn't a clue at all......any other Misinformed comments you want to make?

    It's pretty disrespectful and ignorant for anyone in this country to try compare some cross made of modern metal or concrete made anytime within the last 100 years as somehow equal to the likes of new Grange.

    Hell, it's ignorant to suggest that such crosses are even equal to a standing stone in a field. The standing stone has far more culture and historical importance behind it.

    These crosses blight much of Irelands mountain tops and most were only resurrected from 50s onwards, out of the 3 recent mountains I've been on in the last 4 weeks there was a cross on each and all three put up after the 50s.

    It seems the beauty of our countryside isn't enough for some people, they'd rather blight it with concrete and metal.

    For people that think these crosses have historical importance then I put forward that we also waste money preserving the remains of old TV masts that also blight many of Irelands mountains.

    After all, they are decades old, helped millions of people over the years and are also made of ugly concrete and metal. There's nothing like seeing a old TV transmitter to make you appreciate the beauty of a mountain you visit.


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    #88
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    Cabaal wrote: »
    It seems the beauty of our countryside isn't enough for some people, they'd rather blight it with concrete and metal.

    I am hurt.


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    #89
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,829 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Username32 wrote: »
    one that I personally find offensive.
    well, there's a new wrinkle. someone who is offended by the existence of newgrange.


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    #90
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    well, there's a new wrinkle. someone who is offended by the existence of newgrange.

    I am offended by Newgrange- its a reminder of the utter primitiveness and stupidity of ancient people. Obsessed with worshiping the sun when at the same time enslaving and torturing women and children. Savages.

    Picking and choosing levels of stupidity/validity between spaghetti monster belief systems because some speak to the cultural fashion of the time while others don't is not something I'm willing to do. they are all stupid, all offensive and all deserve the ax or angle grinder.


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    #91
    Username32
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Username32


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    They may have been sun worshippers, but that makes an awful lot more sense than worshipping an imaginary deity, who'll send you to an imaginary punishment for all eternity if you don't worship it.

    These people buried their tools with them cause they thought they would need them in their next life. They were misguided stupid savages. Who built big mounds using slaves they tortured and beat to death.


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