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"Wind blows away fossil power in the Nordics..."

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    #32
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Calibos wrote: »
    The boat has sailed on nuclear Fission. We are better off waiting for Nuclear Fusion at this point. Interesting announcement from Lockheed about a new reactor design they are working on yesterday. If that came off and in the timescale they are talking about then it changes everything. I know Fusion has been 30 years away for the last 50 years but it looks like there is finally decent progress. Our tardiness in investing big time in Fission or renewables might be a blessing in the end.

    http://www.cnet.com/news/lockheed-figures-out-fusion-maybe/

    As a small country the economics of it are a bit different.

    There's no point in building a 20GW fusion reactor on an island that requires about 10.

    A cluster of those small self-contained fission reactors might be the easiest way to replace our fossil fuel usage.

    Wind might be part of the solution but it's not economical to base our whole system on it. It requires too much redundancy due to it only having a 20-30% capacity factor, vs 75-90% for nuclear.


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    #33
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Those fusion reactors could eventually be off grid. One per company or apartment block.

    But let's see. Solar is motoring along as well.


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    #34
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

    But let's see. Solar is motoring along as well.

    You think that's really feasible in Ireland?


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    #35
    Calibos
    Registered Users Posts: 7,806 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Gbear wrote: »
    As a small country the economics of it are a bit different.

    There's no point in building a 20GW fusion reactor on an island that requires about 10.

    A cluster of those small self-contained fission reactors might be the easiest way to replace our fossil fuel usage.

    Wind might be part of the solution but it's not economical to base our whole system on it. It requires too much redundancy due to it only having a 20-30% capacity factor, vs 75-90% for nuclear.

    Have you not got things reversed (Typo?). Isn't it Fission reactors that are uneconomical to build in the smaller megawatt sizes we'd want. (Even the articles on this announcement are all suffering the fusion/fission typo's) The Lockheed announcement may of course just be another pie in the sky announcement to garner funding but if one for the sake of arguement takes it at face value then these proposed/theorised small 200mw Fusion reactors are exactly what we want. Safe and Clean with cheap near infinite fuel. One in most counties and a few in Dublin and Cork. Decentralised power generation with reduced transmission loss and it even gets the anti pylon crowd onboard because theres no need for high voltage transmission lines anymore because generation is local everywhere.

    TBH its so disruptive a technology that it won't be the oil companies trying to slow adoption like the CT nuts assume but the economists. Switching from fossil fuel generation to cheap distributed fusion too quickly would likely be a massive shock to the world financial system. Kinda like how chemo can kill a cancer in small doses spread over time but give the patient the same amount of chemo but in one go will kill them long before the cancer itself would.

    It this lockheed reactor design worked and can be scaled like they say then Fusion power will finally deliver what was over promised for Fission. Unlimited energy almost too cheap to meter. Small volume of very short half life(100 years as opposed to 50,000) waste for first gen reactors reducing to none for later generation fusing different elements. Very safe reactor that simply stops if containment fails. Why would anyone even bother with wind or any other renewable if this fusion reactor design turned out to be the real deal.


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You think that's really feasible in Ireland?

    It is/will be. Newer tech is designed on a much smaller scale than even a few decades ago which indirectly means less need for direct light. More photons can be picked up rather than direct light/heat being needed. There's still a whole lot of innovation to come as well as storage and transport methods develop further and alongside the development of solar.


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    #37
    Specialun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Specialun


    No government over the years have been willing to invest..its that simple

    The lot we have voted in yr after yr only know wind power when they fart. There happy out not taking the gamble

    Can you imagine how much it would cost to set up a public company for wind power..billions alone in waste of cash


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    #38
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    OSI wrote: »
    Because every time you try to build a wind turbine you get a flash mob of "not in my back yard boyo" gumbeens.
    If they were build near where they were needed most, i imagine the protests would stop. Just build them in the cities where there are no gombeens:cool:


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    #39
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    LOL at the claims for nuclear power.

    The UK , who have over 60 years experience with nuclear power , will be paying double the market rate for baseload nuclear power , and that's index linked for decades. And that's a loss leader price to try to pump prime the European nuclear industry, don't kid yourself that we could get the same deal, don't pretend we have anything close to the skills, experience or regulatory structure they when it comes to managing nukes.

    A repeat of the 1707 storm would overrun the new Hinckley C site. The UK is spending lots of money climate change proofing it's nuclear sites since most are on the coast.


    Meanwhile we got 25% of our electricity from wind last winter. And that's mainly because the grid is limited to 50% of non-synchronous power at any one time.


    Fun game - do a search for Reactor Shutdown on google news.


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    #40
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Nuke is ideal, it just runs quietly at 100% output all the time and absorbs the base-load power requirements for a country whilst wind power can then be used for the variable demand.
    Actually what happens in the real world is that both wind and nuclear are backedup by idling gas turbines because they can ramp up in seconds.

    If a nuclear power plant has to be scramed because of a transformer failure , sensor failure or jellyfish* then you have very short window of time to get it back on line before xenon poisoning means you have to stay offline for at least three days.

    Gas is about the only thing that can backup unpredictable nuclear. Korea , UK and Belgium currently have reactors offline for extended unplanned outages. I'd nearly say unpredictable but it's the same old story of nuclear industry cost cutting / mis management.


    Gas turbines are cheap , but the fuel is expensive so every watt you can get out of wind results in less fuel to buy. Anyway here we have way loads of gas turbines already.


    You can't mix wind and nuclear because the costs of nuclear mean you can't invest in wind too. You can't mix them because nuclear takes hours to change the power output up and down , and even then you need to design a different and slightly inefficient reactor. So even though you can forecast wind 5 days in advance, nuclear can't efficiently follow the load.

    Our minimum demand is 1/3rd of peak demand and nuclear can't follow that change or even the difference between night and day



    *Korea , UK, Sweden, South Africa, California, Florida and IIRC Japan.


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    #41
    TogCuig
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭TogCuig


    In a nut shell because the leadership of this country are shtone useless. There won't be any significant move from fossil fuel/foreign sources until the alternatives become more financially enticing.
    Nuclear would be a good road (in combination with other sources/systems), but could you imagine an Irish run nuclear programme? We'd want to get somebody like the French in to do it for us.


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    #42
    losthorizon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    Its Only Ray Parlour wrote: »
    We do get a lot of wind but a current weather chart isn't indicative of the average wind speed across Europe, just so you know.

    The west coast of Norway is very windy also.

    Just so you know - you usually use other alternative sources of power as well.

    These can be solar (which are usually most effective when wind power isnt so strong), tidal and wave, hydro power and woodchip. A nation like Denmark is a world leader.

    Ireland has the perfect climate for alternative power even better than the Nordics and Scotland.

    Re the average wind speed - wind turbines can run at quite low speeds. Its high wind speeds you have to be more careful off.


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    #43
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,794 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Incinerators. I wouldn't object in the slightest if one was opened near me. I like wind turbines, I think they are pretty. I don't like smoky coal.

    The future will be all different sorts of technologies. I think renewables is the way to go longer term but what fracking has achieved in America has slowed down the development. I remember not too long ago the frenzy about peak oil. It probably has passed and at the rate oil and gas are being used they will run out at some point.

    However the Proboscid Pachyderm in the room is being ignored. The amount of energy being wasted in Ireland and around the world is staggering. Just think of all the lights and televisions which are on now with no need for them. And all the heat being wasted. If there was ever a proper economic crisis that must be the first item on the agenda.


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    #44
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Incinerators. I wouldn't object in the slightest if one was opened near me. I like wind turbines, I think they are pretty. I don't like smoky coal.

    The future will be all different sorts of technologies. I think renewables is the way to go longer term but what fracking has achieved in America has slowed down the development. I remember not too long ago the frenzy about peak oil. It probably has passed and at the rate oil and gas are being used they will run out at some point.

    However the Proboscid Pachyderm in the room is being ignored. The amount of energy being wasted in Ireland and around the world is staggering. Just think of all the lights and televisions which are on now with no need for them. And all the heat being wasted. If there was ever a proper economic crisis that must be the first item on the agenda.

    Very true, but as I mentioned, there's zero political interest in doing anything about any sorts of alternative energy, because there's no vote reward as the time scale is too long for our politicians, and they can't live without the obscene levels of tax they get from the present energy systems.

    I'd be only too happy to be using alternative energy rather than oil, but it needs to be affordable, and available, and in most cases, it's not affordable or reliably available. Wood pellet is in theory a viable alternative to oil, but try to find a reliable source of bulk supply, it's just not there, partly because there's no incentive to make the conversions required to use it, and the only other alternative, 25Kg bags of pellets is not something that appeals to me at the age I am, humping bags of that weight around is not sensible, and will become less so as my remaining time goes by.

    Better insulation would also help, but SEI can't even make its mind up about what's out there now, especially for one of the largest stocks of property, dormer bungalows, they can't get their act together on sorting out making the roof level of dormers draught proof, so there's NOTHING on offer from them, which given the number of dormer bungalows there are in the country is a joke, but I'm not laughing.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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    #45
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Nucular. It's pronounced nu-cular.


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    #46
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    I just made that up.

    I'm predicting a long and successful career for you in the Civil Service. A career that will be littered with golden handshakes and that will end with a substantial golden parachute.


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    #47
    Xios
    Registered Users Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compact-fusion-reactor-details

    This is breaking news from today i believe.


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    #48
    Calibos
    Registered Users Posts: 7,806 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Xios wrote: »
    http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compact-fusion-reactor-details

    This is breaking news from today i believe.

    Em....1 page back

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92637958&postcount=31

    ;)


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    #49
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Nuclear reactors are cheaper, make less noise and produce way more energy. They've also become much safer over the past number of decades.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You think that's really feasible in Ireland?
    You do know that nuclear power for a country our size is totally ridiculous ? Small plants are too uneconomical and experimental to suggest otherwise


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    #50
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    You do know that nuclear power for a country our size is totally ridiculous ? Small plants are too uneconomical and experimental to suggest otherwise
    The United Kingdom has 16 plants, or 1 per 3.75 million people. France has 58 plants or 1 per 1.03 million people, the United States has 100 plants or 1 per 3 million people, Spain has 7 plants or 1 per 6.71 million people, Belgium has 7 plants or 1 per 1.57 million people.

    It is certainly not "experimental", "uneconomical" or "totally ridiculous" to have one plant in Ireland servicing 4.5 million people.


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    #51
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The United Kingdom has 16 plants, or 1 per 3.75 million people. France has 58 plants or 1 per 1.03 million people, the United States has 100 plants or 1 per 3 million people, Spain has 7 plants or 1 per 6.71 million people, Belgium has 7 plants or 1 per 1.57 million people.

    It is certainly not "experimental", "uneconomical" or "totally ridiculous" to have one plant in Ireland servicing 4.5 million people.

    undertake some very basic research

    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Low%20Carbon%20Generation%20Options%20for%20the%20All%20Island%20Market%20(2).pdf
    reliance on single large projects to deliver future electricity needs can add undue levels of risk, and in smaller electricity systems the sheer size can be difficult to accommodate. In any electricity system enough back up needs to be available within seconds to deal with the largest possible fault – usually breakdown of the largest unit.


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    #52
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    undertake some very basic research

    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Low%20Carbon%20Generation%20Options%20for%20the%20All%20Island%20Market%20(2).pdf
    You haven't read your own link, only three paragraphs below:
    The two main types of unit being advanced for UK deployment before 2025 are, the ‘European Pressurised Water Reactor (EPR)’ and the Westinghouse AP1000 are 1,600 and 1,100MW respectively, and we have considered these as the most likely candidates for the island in this report.

    Clearly it is not "experimental", "uneconomical" or "totally ridiculous" to have nuclear power in Ireland.


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    #53
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You haven't read your own link, only three paragraphs below:


    Clearly it is not "experimental", "uneconomical" or "totally ridiculous" to have nuclear power in Ireland.

    This is going to be embarrassing.

    You're having a comprehension problem.

    Those are the larger unit-size reactor candidates determined to be impractical.


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    #54
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    This is going to be embarrassing.

    You're having a comprehension problem.

    Those are the larger unit-size reactor candidates determined to be impractical.
    Danger of a single plant going offline is certainly an obstacle to be overcome but it isn't the insurmountable problem that you seem to think it is. If you re read the passage you will see the 1,600 MW plants are considered by the report to be too large. While the Westinghouse AP1000 being developed in the UK is 1,100 MW.

    I still haven't seen anything from you that suggests Ireland is too small to have a nuclear power plant.


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    #55
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Danger of a single plant going offline is certainly an obstacle to be overcome but it isn't the insurmountable problem that you seem to think it is.
    Not me. A leading European energy consultancy comprising 250 energy specialists, citing international research.

    Your last comment has made you appear quite foolish. You don't understand the evidence. Maybe stop digging.


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    #56
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    Not me. A leading European energy consultancy comprising 250 energy specialists, citing international research.

    Your last comment has made your argument appear quite foolish. You don't understand the evidence. Maybe stop digging.
    You left out most of my post. I don't doubt the accuracy of the research, which seems to be what you're suggesting in this post, I'm doubting your interpretation of it. No where does it say nuclear power is unsuitable for Ireland.


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    #57
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No where does it say nuclear power is unsuitable for Ireland.
    stop wasting mine and others' time and read the report carefully.
    Commercially available nuclear stations are large for the size of the electricity system on the island of Ireland and we have assumed that a high system cost is required to integrate nuclear generation. More detailed technical feasibility studies and a full project risk assessment will be needed to develop this option. Nuclear feasibility could be re-examined in a different light at a future date if smaller nuclear generators become commercially available.
    While recognising that such an option is not possible in Ireland at the moment, this
    portfolio includes 2,200MW of nuclear plant. This would be possible using two
    Westinghouse AP1000 reactor designs.


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    #58
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    stop wasting mine and others' time and read the report carefully.

    " More detailed technical feasibility studies and a full project risk assessment will be needed to develop this option."

    That reads as pretty inconclusive. It certainly doesn't back up the assertions you were making.

    I would like to see further research done on the feasibility of introducing a domestic supply of nuclear power though knowing this government that issue will be kicked down the road for future generations to deal with.

    EDIT: Just seen the bit you added.

    " While recognising that such an option is *not possible in Ireland at the moment*, this
    portfolio includes 2,200MW of nuclear plant."

    They're obviously saying a 2,200MW plant is the unsuitable option. Not nuclear power in general.


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    #59
    WILL NEVER LOG OFF
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭WILL NEVER LOG OFF


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    That reads as pretty inconclusive.

    seriously, read the report.

    any amateur with a vague interest in irish nuclear power will already be familiar with and capable of understanding this report, and you evidently are not in that category.


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    #60
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    I like the turbines. They're like giant, elegant daisies.

    Also, LSPD helicopters can't really follow you into them, so they've been very good to me.


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    #61
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »
    seriously, read the report.

    any amateur with a vague interest in irish nuclear power will already be familiar with and capable of understanding this report, and you evidently are not in that category.

    You haven't shown me one piece of evidence to back up your earlier assertions that nuclear power is totally unfeasible for Ireland. That report is, by your own quotes, and certainly by what I've read completely inconclusive.


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