1.8 metre rule back

we got the same email the other day.

That email was from the Motor Caravan Club of Ireland. NOT from the Revenue.

It's a disgrace and damages the creditibility of the Motor Caravan Club, when they send information around, that a) is incorrect and b) probably is pushed by other elements in the Motor Caravan industry in Ireland, as they try to damage the market for the irish van converters.

If the Revenue were to re-introduce the 1.8m rule, they would be in breach of the EU laws, which removed this rule in the first place, while other countries still are in the process of removing or just have removed the height restriction from their laws. (I believe, Germany only dropped the 1.7m rule this year).

Also, were they to re-introduce the 1.8m rule, they would kill off irish businesses and irish jobs. These are people, that then will be on the Dole or be leaving the country. Figure that for the irish economy.

Anyhow. This has been queried with Revenue and while they are keeping their options open, it has not been reintroduced currently.

The rules for conversions can be found here: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html#section7 . This is the ONE AND ONLY source for the specification for a camper and anything else is hear say.

Should these rules change, this document is what changes. Anywhere else is based on this document.

In my opinion, that email is a political stunt to push for a rule change, rather than anything else. It's bad form and paints a very bad picture for the reputability of the Motor Caravan Club of Ireland.

Insuring a camper under 1.8m height then is another story.

/M

moodrater wrote: »

At some stage in the last 6 months they added this gem: "Comfortable living accommodation should comprise an area where a person (of average height) could move around in a standing position." :rolleyes:

Yep. But it's subjective to whoever does the assessment. And what's average height ?

If you ask Revenue what average height is, they'll ignore you and don't answer.

Also, standing yes, but it doesn't say, that it's upraised standing. Matter of interpretation.

Fact is, that asked about the 1.8m rule, their answer was, that they currently not are reintroducing it. Fact is also, that the email was NOT from Revenue. It was from the Motor Caravan Club, who may have their own agenda trying to push this.

/M

niloc1951 wrote: »

One of the most overdue campaigns is for the removal of hight barriers which deny the full use of the pubic road, such barriers are illegal in France and other countries when they discriminate against the the free circulation of some vehicles.

I can't see barriers being removed any time soon. Unfortunately these barriers have resulted from a certain element of the population.

niloc1951 wrote: »

The tax is also structured in such a way as to discourage personal imports

This seems to be the theme with all vehicles regardless of category. The system is simply unfair.

It would also seem that the scare mongering is beginning on classified ads also. This will certainly not help

http://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/mazda-bongo-conversation/7644008

I don't have an opinion on the hight rule,if it works for you who cares how hi it is, but the VRT thing boils my head, as someone who has always self imported I find the current system ludicrous, if the clubs what some thing to do they can join me in my e mail campaign, not that i seem to be getting anywhere with it ....

Irishgoatman wrote: »

You, niloc, say that they are illegal in France, so are you saying that no public/council provided town car parks have barriers? I've only taken cars on to the continent so have never needed to be aware of barriers.

Height barriers are a pure irish and maybe british phenomenon.

On the continent, they only exist to protect a building/bridge behind them. Never to restrict access to an area. At least in the countries I've been to, and that's a lot of western Europe.

/M

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Whilst I agree that height barriers are a pain even for my small camper, as far as I'm aware there are no height barriers on public roads, only into public/private car parks. Public car parks are provided by town councils to enable people to have access to the town by coming in by car but, again as far as I'm aware, there is no legal responsibility on the councils to provide these. If all height barriers were removed is it not possible that, apart from one well known community, they could be taken over by numerious commercial vehicles for overnight parking?. How about living next/close to a car park with one or two refrigerated lorries parking overnight?. Not good.

You, niloc, say that they are illegal in France, so are you saying that no public/council provided town car parks have barriers? I've only taken cars on to the continent so have never needed to be aware of barriers.

Yes they are a pain but not sure what the answer is.

Roads Act, 1993:

“public road” means a road over which a public right of way exists and the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a road authority.

“road” includes—
(a) any street, lane, footpath, square, court, alley or passage.

Road Traffic Act, 1961:
“car park” means a place (not being part of a public road) for the parking of mechanically propelled vehicles
(7) A local authority may make bye-laws as to the use of any car park provided by them under this section, and, in particular, in relation to all or any of the following matters:(a) restricting the classes of vehicles which may be admitted to the car park;

Now, a motor caravan and a car are both in the same vehicle class, ie, Passenger vehicle with less than eight seats not including the drivers seat.
There is nothing in The Act which permits restrictions based on vehicle hight. There are after all many different class's of vehicle which may be of differing heights, think of goods vehicle these can be anywhere between a car derived van and a 4.65 metre HGV

Some public car parks in France do have height barriers, however, there will usually be designated parking for bigger vehicles close by.

Why do people create and maintain the image of bogeymen??
I've often heard it said that these barriers are neccasary to prevent transient people living there for a time. Very few people still move around like this as they would have even 10 years ago. There is no reason why fear means will all should be punished. If a carpark is big enough for vans then it should have no barrier. Let the police deal with anybody who breaks the law.
France has a large transient community and ample parking for campers in most towns but abuse would not be tolerated. Or the parking of 45ft fridges.

Another bogeyman people create is the image of the person who will convert thousands of vehicles if there are no minumum heights required for campers just to ensure they get cheap tax. People have different needs and if someones camper meets their needs and conforms to the EU law well that fine by me regardless of size.

Marlow wrote: »

That email was from the Motor Caravan Club of Ireland. NOT from the Revenue.

The rules for conversions can be found here: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html#section7 . This is the ONE AND ONLY source for the specification for a camper and anything else is hear say.

Should these rules change, this document is what changes. Anywhere else is based on this document.

Insuring a camper under 1.8m height then is another story.

/M

Unfortuately Revenue take much of their guidance from The Motorcaravan Club. I had correspondence from them to Revenue quoted to me by Rosslare when I was trying to get a vehicle passed.

Revenue will probably follow the line that in their view living accommodation means being able to stand up and move around. I doubt they will put it in writing that 1.8m is a new requirement but will proabably refuse the conversions on some associated reason. Ultimately I suppose you could appeal, appeal and probably appeal somewhere else but how long and how much would that be.

The only people who would insure campers less than 1.8 are the Motorcaravan Club. I wonder what their stance will be going forward??

moodrater wrote: »

Was that recently regarding the 1.8m or something else?

Yep, that and my kitchen arrangement.

Moomat wrote: »

Unfortuately Revenue take much of their guidance from The Motorcaravan Club. I had correspondence from them to Revenue quoted to me by Rosslare when I was trying to get a vehicle passed.

Revenue will probably follow the line that in their view living accommodation means being able to stand up and move around. I doubt they will put it in writing that 1.8m is a new requirement but will proabably refuse the conversions on some associated reason. Ultimately I suppose you could appeal, appeal and probably appeal somewhere else but how long and how much would that be.

The only people who would insure campers less than 1.8 are the Motorcaravan Club. I wonder what their stance will be going forward??

There are two separate issues at play here.

A motor caravan is a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:
— seats and table,
— sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,
— cooking facilities, and
— storage facilities.
This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.

End of. No mention of height minimum or otherwise. Therefore any vehicle which meets the above criteria is by definition a motor caravan.

However, here in Ireland we have a VRT and Road Tax system which are local domestic forms of taxation. The tax collectors are entitled to deicide criteria applicable to various vehicles (for example in the UK motor caravans road tax falls within the Private and Heavy Goods Vehicle category depending on GVW)
The 1.8 metre rule is one such criteria which they can be used if they so wish to permit a motor caravan to qualify for the special motor home tax rate.
TBH it's probably got to do with attempting to deny people who wish to use a small camper van as their daily transport and avoid the tax costs of a car.

It is also probably a good ides to restrict camper insurance for vehicles which will only be use as campers and not as a principal means of transport. If there were a lot of campers being used daily it would inevitably increase the claims experience of insurers and we could kiss goodbye to the special camper insurance we enjoy.

Marlow wrote: »

The restriction there is already in place, as you can't get campervan insurance, unless you have another policy already. If you don't have another policy or use the camper as your daily, you insure the campervan as a car. End off.

Also, those campervans, who can't be insured, because the insurances require 1.8m can still be insured as a car/mpv no bother. Just a matter of the right answers to the questions an insurance asks.

That discussion has nothing to do with it.

As for the VRT rules, the above is governing for qualifying in the logbook as motor caravan. And motorcaravans have to specified as such on the logbook, because otherwise they get into hassle in other european countries.

If the revenue wanted to have different motor tax rules for campervans based on their usage, then they'd need to set up 2 groups of campervans.

They have to approve caravans as per the above 4 criteria and not to add additional criteria to it, as it's EU law. And this was implemented AS SUCH into irish law in 2011. Anything added to that will contradict the EU law and the harmonization on the european market and hence is not allowed. That's the black on white there.

Should they add things to it again, once courtcase brought to EU level would scooper them.

/M

I think you may have missed my point about the height issue.
I know if a vehicle fulfils the EU criteria for a motor caravan then that's it, they're EU Vehicle Category (J) motor caravan.

My point is that with respect to the Motor Taxation Class (J.2) and VRT Vehicle Category (J.1) the Government are free to put certain motor caravans into a different class if they so wish, currently all motor caravans are in taxation and VRT class as motor caravans but there is nothing stopping them from putting say motor caravans less than 1.8 meters high into a different class, it's a local issue.
Motor caravans used to be subject to the car or was it goods tax rates in times past and those over 3,000kg were subject to goods vehicle VRT. Currently motor caravans pay goods vehicle road tax rates in the UK.

All the above is another reason why we need a coherent lobby group to protect and promote the interests of motor caravan owners against the preying eyes of those who seek to relieve of of our hard earned cash.
We certainly don't need another example of what they did to us with the VRT back in 2011, a draconian measure which added over €12k to the cost of an average motor caravan and not a single protest was heard.

Anyhow. Any of above is assumption.

I confirmed with Rosslare personally, that this was not something they had plans for currently.

The email was from the Motor Caravan Club of Ireland and was not the official voice of Revenue.

End of debate. It's scare mongering. And it's bad form.

/M