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Proposal for restucture of championship

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  • 02-09-2014 12:43am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭


    Taken from my blog https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com.

    Would like feedback and discussion here or on the site.

    This year’s & last year’s championship have not being classics but while they may have lacked in providing exhilaration, they have arguably provided a lot of signposts as to the future of the game. There are two things from the two most recent championships that have not provoked the discussion that they should have done.

    1- There are very few upsets currently in the championship compared to what is normal in GAA history. There hasn’t been a big upset in the championship this year. The big teams win and win well against the small teams. Last year Donegal losing to Monaghan was the only big upset in the whole championship.

    2- There are not enough games between the big teams in the championship and too many between big teams and small teams which are over by half time.
    In relation to point 1, this is a very worrying trend that will affect attendances and interest in weaker counties. The underdog succeeding in shocking the big counties is a huge “draw” to the championship. If the likes of Louth take it as read that they can’t beat or compete with Kildare than what does it mean when Kildare take it as read that they can’t beat or compete with Dublin? It means that supporters in both these counties are in a hopeless state and will lose interest.

    Supporters not supporting is a clear and present danger to the GAA’s success. A way needs to be found to close the disparity between the small and large counties. How to do this is quite a task.
    Regarding point 2, the Mayo and Kerry games have shown that GAA is an exceptional sport in terms of excitement when played with speed, athleticism and physicality by the elite teams. There was mild sensory overload experienced from watching the game yesterday it was of such excitement. We need more of these games earlier in the summer. Intercounty players are training too much while the game time they get is too short. This issue is slightly easier to solve but won’t be a walk in the park either.

    The most regular, boring and thoughtless idea put forward to revive the excitement of the championship is to do away with the provincial system and have an open championship. The only advantage this would have would be every team has the same chance at the start of the championship. Right now the teams in smaller provinces have an advantage as they have to play less games to win honours. This is uneven, stupid and different from any other sporting tournament I can think of. However while it solves that problem, it does nothing to solve the two issues I raised at the start of the piece. If there is an open draw and say Sligo get Dublin and Louth (sorry for picking on Louth) get Mayo. We are still going to get small attendances and games that are over by half time. It actually deincentivises weaker counties as it makes Sam Maguire the only prize which for a lot of counties is unachieveable, at least the provincial cups or qualifying for a provincial final are someway achieveable.

    Another plan put forward is to have a champions League format which will probably mean a seeding system. This will at least lead to more games but could the extra games be complete mismatches, I think so. For example let’s say there is seeding and the National league division the counties are in decides each counties seeding. A typical group would be Kerry, Galway, Fermanagh and Carlow with two to qualify to the knockouts. Are these games anyone wants to see? If a team wins its first two games or loses it first two it basically leaves the last game as a dead rubber. All I see from these solutions are small teams getting hidings from the big teams, dead rubbers and collective disinterest from GAA supporters. If this was introduced then the only way I could see it rospering would be for the team that finishes third in a group play other teams that finish third for a place in the knockouts. This would at least keep the dead rubbers at bay but would lead to a lot of games being played for a new structure still setup to benefit the big teams. It doesn’t solve either of the problems I’ve mentioned in my introduction and takes away the provincial system. Plus 33 teams doesn’t easily fit in a champions league structure.

    OK so it’s time for me to provide my plan for a fairer more exciting championship and standback because it’s a bit out there. Before I do remember that this year’s league was probably the most exciting ever. Probably more exciting than the championship if truth be told. Loads of tight games played by counties against other counties close to their own level. My idea is to make the league into the championship. Instead of playing each other once, the teams in the league play each other home and away. The top two teams in division one contest the All-Ireland final for Sam. The bottom two get relegated to the next lower division. Prize money is introduced based on league placing so dead rubbers are cut down on. There is one obvious drawback to my plan. Only eight counties at the start of the year can win Sam. This is a problem but at the start of this year only Mayo, Dublin, Cork, Kerry & Donegal had realistic ambitions of winning Sam so is it really that different? As a Kildare fan I knew we weren’t going to win Sam at the start of the year so I would be fine with losing the chance to win it unless we were in division one. The provincial system would be history which is unfortunate but it has being replaced with a divisional system where winning a major trophy is more achieveable to every team and the threat of relegation especially from division one is something to be avoided at all costs. My system could do with more knockout games is another drawback.

    I’m sensing readers may yet not be totally convinced by my plan so let me go through the finance of it. The biggest problem with the current league from a sports consumer point of view is that too few of the games are televised and the TV highlights package showing games is poor. Most games have no camera present. My plan is for the establishment of a GAA TV channel with games on Saturday and Sunday throughout the day so you can watch games all day if you wish. All games would have cameras, be commentated on and have analysts present. The TV channel is a subscription based service available on PCs, laptops, phones and possibly on TV as well if possible. RTE/Sky would still show the biggest games live and highlights of all games. Croke Park would be used to host the biggest games once both County Boards agree to it. It would enable GAA county boards to sell Season tickets with a better idea on the buyer’s side of what exactly this entitles you to in terms of knowing for certain your county will play at least 14 games, 7 at home and 7 away. There would be more of an opportunity to run a fantasy football competition which is a big factor in the popularity of the English Premier league and the US National Football league. It would take Dublin out of Croke Park for championship games. There could be relegation/promotion playoffs say between teams that finish second last in one division against the team that finished second from top in the lower division. All of these games would lead to more excitement and more money for the GAA. Quarter finals or round of 16 games played in a half empty Croke Park would be a thing of the past. The amount of games available to watch would compete with English soccer and the successful model of American football is also being copied to some extent.

    So I think I have solved the problem of there not being enough close games between teams of a similar level in this years’ & last years’ championship. But I have clearly made the other problem worse as now division 1 teams don’t play against teams from other divisions so a big carrot for the players on the weaker or middling counties is gone. My idea for this is to form amalgamate teams from Divisions two, three and four and play them in a mini tournament against the All Ireland champions in a knockout event. While these are exhibition games, I think you can turn these into a big event. Secure a big sponsor that will offer benefits to players that take part. If I was the GAA I would reward players who are picked on the amalgamate team or who are on the All Ireland champions’ panel with a percentage of the gate receipts but this is probably a bridge too far for the GAA. They would definitely need to get something in place to make playing in & winning these exhibition games attractive. Getting picked for the amalgamate team is something that could be voted on by the subscribers to the GAA channel discussed above. I’m not sure who would manage the amalgamate teams but it’s not a big problem. Perhaps they could be managed by Pat Spillane, Joe Brolly & Colm O’Rourke to add a bit more spice to proceedings.

    To show the appeal of these games, I picked a Division two amalgamate side below. Would a crowd come to see these lads in action against Dublin? Look at that full forward line and I think they would if the package was marketed well and the sponsors were large companies that would bring a festival feel to the whole event.
    P O’Rourke
    D Keogan. E McGee. ​​​C Walshe
    C McKeever​​ K Lacey​​​​ G Bradshaw
    P Keenan ​​​​ N Gallagher
    R Munnelly​​​ S Walsh ​​​​​O MacNiallas
    J Clarke​​​ M Murphy ​​​​C McManus​​​​
    Subs:
    Paul Durcan
    Mickey Newman
    Drew Wylie
    Conor Laverty
    Colm Begley
    Graham Reilly
    Frank McGlynn
    Dessie Mone

    Since writing the above, Donegal have comprehensively beaten Dublin which means the championship still has a bit of life in it from the point of view of its ability to provide shocks. But my points about there not being a shock before now and the championship only getting going in August still stands. Perhaps my proposed system could be tweaked into two tiers rather than four divisions but the remaining plan around more blanket tv coverage would stay as it is as well as one high profile game between the players from an amalgamated bottom tier vs the champions of the top tier.​​

    In consclusion, I would think there are drawbacks to my proposal but I see a hunger and an opportunity to modernise. Too many counties are out of their depth against the top eight and expecting these counties to get to the level where they can compete with the top 8 is not something I can foresee or provide any suggestion of a plan for a way it could remotely be done. So the compromise I’m proposing is that the best players in the lower tier counties get to play against the best team in Ireland in a high profile one off or two off game. There are too many John Heslins, Emlyn Mulligans, Cian Mackeys and Donie Shines that don’t get near enough exposure because they are from the wrong part of the country.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    TL:DR. Whats the synopsis?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    basically merge the league and championship. spilt into a 4 tier championship, tiers decided by league that county plays in. each team plays each other home and away in its tier. Top 2 in each tier play each other in final. only tier 1 compete for sam maguire.

    have gaa channel with a subscription package setup and all games shown live throughout saturday and sunday of weekends. biggest games still on rte. season tickets guarantee you attendance to at least 7 championship games

    after tier winners and relegations decided have a competition between all ireland champions and amalgamations of the best players from the other three tiers. give it a profile by allowing supscription holders to vote for the amalgamation teams. also sell sponsorships hard, give botherline professional benefits to the players taking part and push promotion of the competition very hard and. make it a festival of GAA.

    advantages:
    does away with big counties giving small counties pastings.
    much more big games between big teams, championship nearly over by the time it gets going currently.
    addresses to some degree the growing gap between big and small counties by allowing the best from small counties compete vs the best team nationally


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Nah. I'm a Laois fan and this year we almost beat Clare in the hurling, and Dublin in the football (I'm not going to rise to the "no you didn't" etc. - the first time Dublin went ahead was the 43rd min, and up until the 55th there was only a goal in it. We met Clare in the league and were only 2 points down at the 70min. I cannot express what a goal would have meant to me).

    The point anyway is, though we are not a top tier county in either league, we did come close to beating the reigning champions in both codes. Its amazing that feeling as a fan, and I wouldnt accept the lower divisions being left to rot.

    In the hurling Laois play in a preliminary round robin with teams our own standard, and the winners go into the Championship propper. I think thats the model to replicate. More games, helps develop the weaker counties, prevents hammerings.

    I do agree though that the main summer attraction should have more games, and the way to do that is a league structure. However, you cant expect armatures to play 60 games a season.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    I'm doing away with the league & merging it into championship. I don't think they'll be playing 60 games a season. More like 14 for their county. Are you counting them playing every club game?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    You shouldn't completely get rid of the big v small counties. If you do that the gap widens and its harder to make up the different

    Would introducing prize money based on finishing position be such a big motivator? It doesn't really change much for supporters views regarding dead rubbers.

    You are looking to NFL and EPL too much IMO and the football championship cant really be compared to them

    I don't like your idea for amalgamate teams from Divisions two, three and four and play them in a mini tournament against the All Ireland champions in a knockout event working. It may attract some crowds initially but would players after novelty wears off want it? No IMO as club championships etc are in full flow


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Big fat no.

    Imagine Fermanagh in 2004 were a kick of a ball from an All-Ireland Final and in the replay were beaten by Mayo by only 2 points... No chance of that happening under your mad plan.

    Imagine Wexford in 2008; Dublin beat Wexford in Leinster by 23 points. Tyrone beat Dublin in the QF by 12 points and it shoudl've been more. The eventual All Ireland champions then beat Wexford by 6.

    And what of Sligo v Kerry in 2009..

    You proposal is for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. The biggest issue in the Championship is the Provincial System. Solve that and you'll solve the biggest problem. We all have our ideas on how and why but your system is not the answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    What I would like to see happen is something that would put the club back to the top of the pile when it comes to importance in the structure of the championship and the calendar.

    Too many counties are delaying the club championships now, and this is having a knock effect down through the age groups.

    Secondly, by and large, with a few noticeable exceptions is quite boring up to the start of August - thats three months of fairly boring standard. This is what I would like to see:

    Football with 32 counties (maybe need tweaking on this number).

    League:
    league needs to be downsized and finished quicker - I would get rid of semi finals and finals and just leave it as a top of table wins.


    Championship:

    Round 1:
    8 Groups of 4 seeded. (Need to work out how seeding works for year 1)
    Thats three games where first game happens on the first weekend in May and every two weeks after that finishing up on the first weekend of June.

    Club committments to be honored in the non-Intercounty weekends of May - this is a rule needs to implemented at congress!


    Round 2:
    The top two from each group go forward to the Sam Maguire Competition.
    The bottom two go to the second tier competition - both formats are identical so I will just describe the top tier.

    4 Groups of 4 teams. The draw should force two top place teams and two second place teams from each of the Round 1 draws.

    Three matches to be played starting on the third weekend in June and every two weeks thereafter finishing on the third weekend in July.

    That leaves two free weekends between round 1 and round 2 and a weekend between each of the round 2 games for club commitments.

    All of the above games to be played at neutral venues unless counties want or have home and away agreements.

    Going by the 2014 calendar, it would now be the 20th of July and every county will have played 6 games. There would have been no 6 day turn arounds, and if everyone was forced to, there would be a hell of a lot of club football played throughout the country on dry ground.

    Time for a break - the top two from each of the groups go to the quarter finals. I would leave this for the weekend after the August Bank Holiday weekend, ideally as two double headers. All to be played in Croke Park.

    And then continue on with semis and final into September as normal.



    Hurling would be similar but smaller with possibly two games between each of the teams to fill out the season a bit.

    I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with the above, but it is just my opinion. Personally I think the provincials are dead and gone now and its time to leave it go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Colm R wrote: »
    What I would like to see happen is something that would put the club back to the top of the pile when it comes to importance in the structure of the championship and the calendar.

    Too many counties are delaying the club championships now, and this is having a knock effect down through the age groups.

    Secondly, by and large, with a few noticeable exceptions is quite boring up to the start of August - thats three months of fairly boring standard. This is what I would like to see:

    Football with 32 counties (maybe need tweaking on this number).

    League:
    league needs to be downsized and finished quicker - I would get rid of semi finals and finals and just leave it as a top of table wins.


    Championship:

    Round 1:
    8 Groups of 4 seeded. (Need to work out how seeding works for year 1)
    Thats three games where first game happens on the first weekend in May and every two weeks after that finishing up on the first weekend of June.

    Club committments to be honored in the non-Intercounty weekends of May - this is a rule needs to implemented at congress!


    Round 2:
    The top two from each group go forward to the Sam Maguire Competition.
    The bottom two go to the second tier competition - both formats are identical so I will just describe the top tier.

    4 Groups of 4 teams. The draw should force two top place teams and two second place teams from each of the Round 1 draws.

    Three matches to be played starting on the third weekend in June and every two weeks thereafter finishing on the third weekend in July.

    That leaves two free weekends between round 1 and round 2 and a weekend between each of the round 2 games for club commitments.

    All of the above games to be played at neutral venues unless counties want or have home and away agreements.

    Going by the 2014 calendar, it would now be the 20th of July and every county will have played 6 games. There would have been no 6 day turn arounds, and if everyone was forced to, there would be a hell of a lot of club football played throughout the country on dry ground.

    Time for a break - the top two from each of the groups go to the quarter finals. I would leave this for the weekend after the August Bank Holiday weekend, ideally as two double headers. All to be played in Croke Park.

    And then continue on with semis and final into September as normal.



    Hurling would be similar but smaller with possibly two games between each of the teams to fill out the season a bit.

    I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with the above, but it is just my opinion. Personally I think the provincials are dead and gone now and its time to leave it go.

    I think its the way it should be done but if all counties were at a fairly similar level. But there are going to be an awful lot of pastings I'd fear especially in the first group stage. Also 33 teams take part in the football championship so it gets slightly awkward in terms of a champions league format.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Big fat no.

    Imagine Fermanagh in 2004 were a kick of a ball from an All-Ireland Final and in the replay were beaten by Mayo by only 2 points... No chance of that happening under your mad plan.

    Imagine Wexford in 2008; Dublin beat Wexford in Leinster by 23 points. Tyrone beat Dublin in the QF by 12 points and it shoudl've been more. The eventual All Ireland champions then beat Wexford by 6.

    And what of Sligo v Kerry in 2009..

    You proposal is for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. The biggest issue in the Championship is the Provincial System. Solve that and you'll solve the biggest problem. We all have our ideas on how and why but your system is not the answer.

    You're having to go back fairly far for upsets. I think the championship is at least two tier already with a lot of second tier teams incapable of beating
    a lot of the top tier ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    You're having to go back fairly far for upsets. I think the championship is at least two tier already with a lot of second tier teams incapable of beating
    a lot of the top tier ones.

    They're the noticeable ones off the top of my head. There's others and there have been other close calls as well.

    All of which would be done away with under your system.

    ---

    As regards the above proposal that that gives us 2 group stages? Madness. We'd be bored senseless by the middle of the group stage.

    Also by having the bottom 2 of each group go through you're essentially rewarding failure to bottom teams knowing that they'll be in another competition regardless. In that system it should be the third place only team that goes into the second tier competition!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭zombieHanalei


    Upsets aren't supposed to be a regular occurrence- otherwise they wouldn't be called upsets! I get that you're saying the lack of upsets illustrates the gulf between the good and not so good teams but at least the championship format we have allows for them to happen.

    Introduce a tiered structure into football and upsets will no longer be a rarity, they will become an impossibility.

    The age old call for "Champions League" format; overlooks the fact the Champions League can be more than a bit dull during the group stages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Getting rid of the provincial championships would be a backwards step. Even with introducing several tiers of competition which would give all counties a shot at winning against sides of same level. keep the provincial competitions as they give sides chances against higher level counties and their history shouldn't be lost and pushed aside


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    The age old call for "Champions League" format; overlooks the fact the Champions League can be more than a bit dull during the group stages.

    Yes, but the Champions League has two legs for each match. I can't imagine we would do that. If the groups are small each round is fairly important.

    However, it is clear from the comments above from everyone that there is a clear division across the board and I'm sure this would be reflected in every county and club in Ireland.

    The first division is those who want to keep the provincial championships versus those who want to let them go.

    Those that want to keep it are again divided between restructuring them or leaving them as is and possibly restructuring the qualifier set up.

    Those that want to get rid of them won't even talk about ideas on how to make them work (myself included) and then we are ourselves divided on how the structure should be if they were to be got rid of.


    Personally, I think before any committee or otherwise is appointed to make a proposal on restructuring, I think that committee should be given a mandate based on a vote at congress to abolish the provincial championships or not.

    This would be huge, and every GAA member should vote on this at their club and hence their county and then congress itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.

    Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.

    Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.

    As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.

    Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.

    I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.

    The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭zombieHanalei


    Abolishing provinces would do damage in the long run.

    A member of the Limerick panel had a realistic chance of winning a Munster final medal between 2002 and 2012, and they came close on a few occasions. The odds were always against them with Kerry and Cork standing in the way but it was still a realistic and achievable target.

    They had absolutely no chance whatsoever of winning the All-Ireland title by comparison.

    Take away the provinces, and you dramatically reduce the pool of teams that can win a championship trophy.

    Almost every year, a (small) number of Limerick's panel withdraw from the panel once their involvement in the Munster championship was ended as a qualifier run didn't have the same appeal as they knew full well it would inevitably end in defeat. I don't know enough about other counties to comment on those counties but I can't imagine this scenario was unique to Limerick.

    Do we really want a championship format that only caters for the needs of the top pool of teams?

    Do people really feel that B and C competitions would have any meaningful appeal to the wider public? Look at hurling, how many people can name the 10 champions of the Ring/Rackard cups since their introduction in 2005?

    How much appeal would a B/C competition have to players/counties who all along have been top tier?

    The problem is, there is no perfect format. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only kidding themselves. Every suggestion has its strengths and weaknesses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    But Limerick will never win a Munster title so its academic. And like you said, once knocked out of Munster which is more often than not after one game, they don't even try to win qualifiers or players withdraw. How is that good for the long term development of the game in Limerick? At least in a group of four they are guaranteed 3 competitive games or 6 if it was to be played home and away. Generally the more competitive football you play, the better.

    I understand the affection some counties have for provincial titles, but thats all it is, affection and nostalgia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭zombieHanalei


    realweirdo wrote: »
    But Limerick will never win a Munster title so its academic. And like you said, once knocked out of Munster which is more often than not after one game, they don't even try to win qualifiers or players withdraw. How is that good for the long term development of the game in Limerick? At least in a group of four they are guaranteed 3 competitive games or 6 if it was to be played home and away. Generally the more competitive football you play, the better.

    I understand the affection some counties have for provincial titles, but thats all it is, affection and nostalgia.

    Had you read my post, they had a realistic chance from 2002 to 2012 but it never came off, just because they never pulled it off does not mean it was realistic. The players believed it achievable and they aimed for it, once it didn't happen some of them pulled out of the panel. And from in those 10 years they were not "more often than not knocked out in one game", that happened 4 out of 11 times. If you're going to try and knock their record at least do your research.

    I explicitly didn't comment on other counties as I said I didn't know enough about them, you can't really comment on Limerick over that time frame as you don't seem to know much about Limerick over that spell.

    6 games in a boring group format for what? They would have nothing to play for, they would just be playing games for the sake of playing games. They will never win an All-Ireland, that would take a run of 5 shocking upsets. A Munster final win just takes one shock result over Cork or Kerry in a final.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    realweirdo wrote: »
    In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.

    Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.

    Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.

    As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.

    Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.

    I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.

    The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.

    I don't see why professionalism would have to be a prequisite for a CL style championship.

    ---

    You also forgot about Ulster Football. As a tournament it's the dogs tittles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    Arguments for keeping the provincial championship:

    1. Gives more teams an opportunity of winning a trophy in a given year.

    2. Historically speaking these competitions carry a lot of weight.

    3. Local rivalry.

    (Please add to this list as I am the first to admit I am biased in this regard - I want them to go).


    Ignoring any proposals for what a new structure would entail, I think the following could be arguments for getting rid of the provincial championships:

    1. Numerical equality - two teams contesting the All Ireland final would have played the same number of matches as each other.

    2. More variety on who counties play every year.

    3. Fixed calendar (this for me is the biggest advantage - which is obviously entirely dependent on what a new structure would be but one could assume it would allow a fixed calendar).

    4. Potentially more games for every team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭marathont


    I think most teams in most sports never win anything. There are lots of teams that dont really have a hope of winning a medal, but the players still want to play.

    Ireland are never going to win a world cup but the players\supporters get great satisfaction if they beat a bigger nation or qualify for a tournament.

    We will never have a situation where every team can compete for a trophy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    The provincial championships are pointless these days.They are being preserved for the chance of a shock victory which happens at most once every 10 years.The championship structure should not be based on a potential underdog win once in a blue moon.

    What I would do is leave the league as it is.

    Then for championship have a first round which consists of 16 matches.The top 12 teams in the league are seeded and cannot meet each other in the opening round.Then we have a draw for the 16 ties and home advantage is decided by a coin toss.

    The winners of the 16 first round matches progress to the next stage of the championship and this consists of 4 groups of 4 who play each other other once and the top 2 in each group progress to the AI quarter finals.

    The advantage of this is.Real intensity in the opening round of the championship.

    A big incentive to do well in the league.IMO almost every team in Ireland is capable of getting into the top 12 over a 5 year period in the league if they work hard.


    It avoids the majority of the championship consisting of mismatches.There isn't a huge gap between the top 16 teams in Ireland.

    No splitting the competition into division so everybody gets a chance to win the all ireland and the weaker counties aren't left behind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Had you read my post, they had a realistic chance from 2002 to 2012 but it never came off, just because they never pulled it off does not mean it was realistic. The players believed it achievable and they aimed for it, once it didn't happen some of them pulled out of the panel. And from in those 10 years they were not "more often than not knocked out in one game", that happened 4 out of 11 times. If you're going to try and knock their record at least do your research.

    I explicitly didn't comment on other counties as I said I didn't know enough about them, you can't really comment on Limerick over that time frame as you don't seem to know much about Limerick over that spell.

    6 games in a boring group format for what? They would have nothing to play for, they would just be playing games for the sake of playing games. They will never win an All-Ireland, that would take a run of 5 shocking upsets. A Munster final win just takes one shock result over Cork or Kerry in a final.

    Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.

    For the neutral a Cork-Kerry final is the last thing we want to see.

    The seedings were only bright back in for this year's championship.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    realweirdo wrote: »
    In my view the provincial championships are slowly losing their appeal.

    Winning the Munster football championship used to be a big deal largely because it guaranteed an automatic AI semi final in the pre qualifier days. These days the Munster Championship is not a big deal, and people are surely sick of seeing either Kerry or Cork win it year in year out. The Connacht Championships something similar. Its a nice warm up for the likes of Galway or Mayo but little more.

    Only the munster hurling provincial is taken seriously. The leinster one has little or no competitive value to it and likewise is used as a warm up.

    As for the Leinster football, its become a bit of a joke now with Dublin winning every year.

    Would anyone really miss the provincial championships? They've lost an awful lot of their prestige in recent times.

    I think a Champions League format would work well. Eight groups of 4 to start off, with New York given a premliminary match beforehand. Then last 16, QFs, Semis and so on.

    The big limitation on all this of course is that its an amateur sport and most footballers give their all in the Championship. It's hard to expect them to give their all for 10 or 11 games throughout the summer if they want to go all the way. Some amount of compensation would have to come to the players, no doubt. To grow the GAA as a sport both nationally and internationally, the GAA will at some stage have to look at at least limited pay for play or professionalism.

    You'd need to be at least a hundred years old to remember a time when Cork and Kerry didnt dominate the Munster Championship. How is it any different now than 20/30 years ago? Other than the fact the automatic semi final is now an automatic quarter final.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭zombieHanalei


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Fair enough. I definitely think its time they ended the seeding in the munster football championship. Like you say reaching a munster final is a highlight for Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipperary supporters and players. I think the reason for the seeding was financial if I remember correctly. For the neutral its good to see a Cork-Kerry munster final, but for the other teams in munster not so much.

    Ah here don't get me started on that seeding debacle; it was actually Limerick who proposed the motion for seeding, and it was seconded by Cork and Waterford!

    The motion gets passed and almost immediately Limerick and Waterford are nothing but bitterly critical of the decision. I still haven't got my head around that one!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    You'd need to be at least a hundred years old to remember a time when Cork and Kerry didnt dominate the Munster Championship. How is it any different now than 20/30 years ago? Other than the fact the automatic semi final is now an automatic quarter final.

    Well some people are a bit sick of it I'm sure. With the draw seeded you can take it as a given Cork and Kerry will be there again in July. A bit of variety with non seeding would be nice.

    When you think about it, the Ulster teams have a really difficult task winning All-Irelands. First they have to come through Ulster which is the most competitive province. Then they have to go through 3 more tough games. If a team like Tyrone or Down gets knocked out early in Ulster they have a long slog through the back door.

    Mayo, Dublin or Kerry don't have such a hard slog through to Quarter finals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭Crash Bang Wall


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I think its the way it should be done but if all counties were at a fairly similar level. But there are going to be an awful lot of pastings I'd fear especially in the first group stage. Also 33 teams take part in the football championship so it gets slightly awkward in terms of a champions league format.

    5 in 1 group will sort this out

    But for me The Championship season itself needs to be shortened because club football, the grass roots is losing out. The Donegal club championship wont start till the last week in Sept. Thats crazy

    I would agree that the Provincial syatem needs to be scrapped, as the only competitive one is Ulster.

    8 groups of 4, and either one group with 5, or the 2 worst teams play off for one group

    5 or 6 games can be shown live each weekend for TV exposure....Fri nite, 2-3 Sat and 2-3 on Sunday. And Friday nite is fine as clubs have to deal with this regularly, and the U-21 Championships are on Wed evenings

    Round of games evry 2 weeks, top 2 qualify, and knock out stages then. A second competition for the losers, where top 4 say are guaranteed to be in the top 16 seeds the following year. Everyone guaranteed 4 games


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Ah here don't get me started on that seeding debacle; it was actually Limerick who proposed the motion for seeding, and it was seconded by Cork and Waterford!

    The motion gets passed and almost immediately Limerick and Waterford are nothing but bitterly critical of the decision. I still haven't got my head around that one!!

    I remember something about a few of the lesser counties voting in favour of it alright. Strange decision.

    If Cork and Kerry met in the first round in Munster in an open draw and lets say Kerry lost, it would mean entering the early rounds of the qualifiers and a longer route. The best of teams can struggle in the qualifiers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    5 in 1 group will sort this out

    But for me The Championship season itself needs to be shortened because club football, the grass roots is losing out. The Donegal club championship wont start till the last week in Sept. Thats crazy

    I would agree that the Provincial syatem needs to be scrapped, as the only competitive one is Ulster.

    8 groups of 4, and either one group with 5, or the 2 worst teams play off for one group

    5 or 6 games can be shown live each weekend for TV exposure....Fri nite, 2-3 Sat and 2-3 on Sunday. And Friday nite is fine as clubs have to deal with this regularly, and the U-21 Championships are on Wed evenings

    Round of games evry 2 weeks, top 2 qualify, and knock out stages then. A second competition for the losers, where top 4 say are guaranteed to be in the top 16 seeds the following year. Everyone guaranteed 4 games
    The championship doesn't need to be shortened for counties like Donegal to start and play their club championship earlier. Donegal clubs could easily work their season structure around so that the club championship starts and has several rounds played in summer months even if the county side gets to the latter stages of the All Ireland.
    Inter County games are very different to Club games and have much bigger crowds going, players have more to travel etc so simply saying Clubs have to deal with Friday nights regularly therefore inter county sides should be fine on Friday nights


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    In many respects it's the league that's the problem, it's just a complete joke.


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