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Iraq,on the brink of Civil War ?

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    #92
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    The US "supports" them because of links, ties, history, oil, etc, although they have been relatively critical of treatment of protesters during the Arab spring

    Israel doesn't support Saudi

    Ah now Jonny7, they don't support House Of Saud officially but privately, that's something else. I don't doubt for a second, the House of Saud do as they're told.

    Israel has been one of the most active countries in bombing any Syrian military units or movements they don't approve of

    They weren't bombing opposition forces to Assad, they attacked Hezbollah and if anything, they were assisting so-called "rebels"
    Like I said, they are no fans of Assad at all, but their security is their primary concern. 1.6 millions Arabs enjoy Israeli citizenship.

    I was referring to nationality. Russians make up ~20% of the population.
    The point is, Russia and Israel have mutual interests in the middle east, they cooperate with each other on various issues.

    The annexing of Crimea by Russia actually helps Israel defend its occupation of Palestine.


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    #93
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Ah now Jonny7, they don't support House Of Saud officially but privately, that's something else. I don't doubt for a second, the House of Saud do as they're told.




    They weren't bombing opposition forces to Assad, they attacked Hezbollah and if anything, they were assisting so-called "rebels"



    I was referring to nationality. Russians make up ~20% of the population.
    The point is, Russia and Israel have mutual interests in the middle east, they cooperate with each other on various issues.

    The annexing of Crimea by Russia actually helps Israel defend its occupation of Palestine.

    There was never a country called Palestine, so how can it be occupied?


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    #94
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    galwayrush wrote: »
    There was never a country called Palestine, so how can it be occupied?

    Where is your evidence God gave that land to the Jewish people?

    You're not delusional, are you?


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    #95
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    I found it peculiar this ISIS group didn't attack the Kurds, but then I recall Israel wanting to establish a base of operations in the north of Iraq for any attack on Iran.

    While Saudi Arabia and Qatar might sponsor these Islamic mercenaries throughout the Middle East, it is Israel that calls the shots.
    Eh, what? This is all a secret Jewish plot?

    Isis has avoided the Kurds because the Kurdish militias are actually capable of fighting back. The Peshmerga are by far the most coherent and competent of the various Iraqi military formations. Unlike the National Army, they have both the means and the motives to, well, not crumple en masse.


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    #96
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Eh, what? This is all a secret Jewish plot?

    I wouldn't go so far as claiming it's a "Jewish plot" but Israel definitely seems to have been the main beneficiary from conflict in Syria and Iraq.
    It is very well documented, the neoconservatives (many of them Jewish) in the US were architects of the Iraq invasion. (PNAC, AEI)

    I'm still curious to know why some of you believe UK/France/US have such an interest in toppling Assad if in fact Israel would prefer to have him in power.

    If in fact, a destabilized Syria is a threat to Israel, why would US/UK and France provide financial support for what is clearly a group of thugs butchering Syrian people, causing instability.

    Israel annexed Golan Heights last year and now Irish soldiers are being used to protect Israel from attacks by militants in Syria...or so we're told to believe.
    Isis has avoided the Kurds because the Kurdish militias are actually capable of fighting back. The Peshmerga are by far the most coherent and competent of the various Iraqi military formations. Unlike the National Army, they have both the means and the motives to, well, not crumple en masse.

    That's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it.


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    #97
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Where is your evidence God gave that land to the Jewish people?

    You're not delusional, are you?
    What on earth are you talking about?
    Why would you think I'm delusional?


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    #98
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Something tells me what we are seeing now is the start of a long running major conflict in Iraq similar to the one in Syria. ISIS are gaining recruits, money and arms by the day in the region. It's surely only a matter of time before they spread to other countries in the region too. The Iranians may well see an opportunity to increase their presence in Iraq with a puppet regime installed there. This conflict could go on for years. ISIS are also one hard to beat outfit. As ever its the civillians who will suffer most.
    BuilderPlumber wrote: »
    A blind eye is always turned to Saudi Arabia arming such groups as ISIS. But this is where the problem lies: Saudi Arabia can do anything as long as they keep providing oil deals to the West and the arms industry are very interested in any fanatic group that will fight for years.

    Hopefully, Iran and Iraq's authorities can contain this situation and defeat ISIS as soon as possible. If they got a hold in Iraq and inspired similar groups like AQIM (North and West Africa), Al Shabaab (Somalia, Kenya) and Boko Haram (Nigeria, Cameroon) to set up their own states, it would be a very dangerous situation. Fascist 'Sunni Islam' dictatorships pose the greatest threat to the world since Nazism did. The world domination aspirations of the Third Reich are there as is their intolerance of anyone else different to their ideology. It would be frightening to see these take hold across North Africa and the Middle East. The people there would suffer greatly and Europe would have a tide of terrorist attacks at a rate never seen before.

    Right now there are only a few things I could say with any certainty about events in the middle east. These ISIS jihadis are beyond cruel and horrible not sure there is a word that does them justice whomever they are. When the money trail is eventually traced it will lead back to the house of Saud as their main backers. and that the current plot that is the middle east is well and truly phucked up even by middle eastern standards. There is no way this Jihadi blitzkrieg could have materialised without serious planning and backing it just couldnt. The sunni/shia confrontation has been going on for centuries this to me does not seem like a spontaneous sunni uprising there is a lot more to this than what we are seeing at face value. Earth politics - what you see is not usually what you get - I often think of a Huxley quote when attempting to make sense of things that on the surface appear apparent yet scratch a little deeper and they arent - there are things known and there are things unknown and in between are the doors of perception.

    I wonder have the Americans fallen out with the Saudis and perhaps even the Israelis. These ISIS are a Saudi proxy yet the Americans are contemplating some sort of action which if they did would be a defacto attack on them. and the Iranians are open to maybe working with the Americans. We know that Saudi Arabia and Israel have a common interest - checking Iranian influence - so for the Americans to team up with them or to somehow take action well how does that work vis a vis their relationship with the Israelis and Saudis. or maybe the plan is to somehow draw the Iranians into Iraq which if they go in hard there is no question this would trigger an all out shia/sunni war which obviously wouldnt be good for them. are the Iranians being lured into a trap. Then there is Syria and their evaporating border with Iraq what does it mean for them and the fight against Assad. There is more to this than meets the eye this Jihadi blitzkrieg is just bizzare. Apparently nobody seen this coming and lots of people are surprised yet the Americans have being flying drones over Iraq how did that happen. ISIS have been in Libya, Syria and now Iraq. I read today that 1700 shia soldiers have been executed by the Jihadis I mean surely they knew if they didnt fight they would lose their lives why didnt they fight. the situation is bizzare Im not sure what to make of yet.


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    #99
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    galwayrush wrote: »
    What on earth are you talking about?
    Why would you think I'm delusional?

    If you believe God gave Jewish people the land of Israel, then I'd have to say that's a pretty delusional belief.

    Bit like these folks here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R611drTEHPA


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    #100
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    If you believe God gave Jewish people the land of Israel, then I'd have to say that's a pretty delusional belief.



    ]

    Please show me where I said that, please?


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    #101
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,677 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Right now there are only a few things I could say with any certainty about events in the middle east. These ISIS jihadis are beyond cruel and horrible not sure there is a word that does them justice whomever they are. When the money trail is eventually traced it will lead back to the house of Saud as their main backers. and that the current plot that is the middle east is well and truly phucked up even by middle eastern standards. There is no way this Jihadi blitzkrieg could have materialised without serious planning and backing it just couldnt. The sunni/shia confrontation has been going on for centuries this to me does not seem like a spontaneous sunni uprising there is a lot more to this than what we are seeing at face value. Earth politics - what you see is not usually what you get - I often think of a Huxley quote when attempting to make sense of things that on the surface appear apparent yet scratch a little deeper and they arent - there are things known and there are things unknown and in between are the doors of perception.

    I wonder have the Americans fallen out with the Saudis and perhaps even the Israelis. These ISIS are a Saudi proxy yet the Americans are contemplating some sort of action which if they did would be a defacto attack on them. and the Iranians are open to maybe working with the Americans. We know that Saudi Arabia and Israel have a common interest - checking Iranian influence - so for the Americans to team up with them or to somehow take action well how does that work vis a vis their relationship with the Israelis and Saudis. or maybe the plan is to somehow draw the Iranians into Iraq which if they go in hard there is no question this would trigger an all out shia/sunni war which obviously wouldnt be good for them. are the Iranians being lured into a trap. Then there is Syria and their evaporating border with Iraq what does it mean for them and the fight against Assad. There is more to this than meets the eye this Jihadi blitzkrieg is just bizzare. Apparently nobody seen this coming and lots of people are surprised yet the Americans have being flying drones over Iraq how did that happen. ISIS have been in Libya, Syria and now Iraq. I read today that 1700 shia soldiers have been executed by the Jihadis I mean surely they knew if they didnt fight they would lose their lives why didnt they fight. the situation is bizzare Im not sure what to make of yet.

    i was wondering the same thing in regards to the House of Saud- is this payback for America trying to reach a deal with Iran on its nuclear program. If it is, it's a miscalculation, because Iran and America share a common enemy in ISIL. Surely the house of Saud didn't envisage maliki's government falling. perhaps their goal is to simply bog Iran down in another conflict and remind America that if you sideline them there are consequences.


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    #102
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    galwayrush wrote: »
    There was never a country called Palestine, so how can it be occupied?

    International law says that the Palestinian territories are occupied.

    To deny it, is just typical extremist Zionist nonsense, and I am surprised that there are people who are de facto supporting Israel violent expansionist project by denying the very real, well documented occupation.

    I take it you can disprove, most of the world major new organizations, various NGOs, the ICJ, and pretty much everyone who isn't a extremist Zionist.

    Anyway to get things back on track, and talk about Tony Blair comments in regards to Iraq, and tbh the man has no business and 0 credibility on this matter. He should be tried for war crimes at the Hague, and quite frankly deserves to be ignored, considering his complete and utter failure in regards to his own Iraq misadventure in search of imaginary WMDs.


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    #103
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Still people trying to make out Assad is a nice guy, a victim of the west (which he ain't) and just a dictator trying to get on with the business of massacring his people in peace.

    A timely reminder of the nature of the Assad regime.

    http://www.arabnews.com/news/587136


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    #104
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    As for the Iraq War and leaving Saddam in power, Saddam was even more brutal than ISIL. He killed 5000 kurds in one day and kept the peace only by killing hundreds of thousands of people.

    The cause of the recent sunni uprising are clear. Al malaki went againt the advice of everyone including the Americans by antagonising the sunni. Secondly Syria is now a failed state, a recruiting ground and training centre for every jihadist in the world. Given that western influence in syria is precisly none, the blame for this lies with Assad and his international protectors. He could have stepped down. Instead he decided to tough it out, and in doing so attracted thousands of jihadists from around the world many of whom are now trying to create their own state.


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    #105
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If the Kurds haven't changed in the years since I was in Iraq, his opinion on why ISIS hasn't gone after them is likely correct. They are disciplined and motivated, even if not massively well trained. That counts for a lot.

    I suspect ISIS has gotten about as far as it can. The Iraqi military is starting to fight back, and executions of prisoners such as ISIS has started has a wonderful way of motivating people to fight and not surrender in the future.


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    #106
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Still people trying to make out Assad is a nice guy, a victim of the west (which he ain't)

    Nobody is defending Assad, that's all in your head. Some people, like myself just refuse to believe in the narrative being propagated by mainstream media and western politicians. That's a distinct difference from endorsing Assad, so please stop exaggerating.


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    #107
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    BuilderPlumber wrote: »
    A blind eye is always turned to Saudi Arabia arming such groups as ISIS. But this is where the problem lies: Saudi Arabia can do anything as long as they keep providing oil deals to the West and the arms industry are very interested in any fanatic group that will fight for years.

    Hopefully, Iran and Iraq's authorities can contain this situation and defeat ISIS as soon as possible. If they got a hold in Iraq and inspired similar groups like AQIM (North and West Africa), Al Shabaab (Somalia, Kenya) and Boko Haram (Nigeria, Cameroon) to set up their own states, it would be a very dangerous situation. Fascist 'Sunni Islam' dictatorships pose the greatest threat to the world since Nazism did. The world domination aspirations of the Third Reich are there as is their intolerance of anyone else different to their ideology. It would be frightening to see these take hold across North Africa and the Middle East. The people there would suffer greatly and Europe would have a tide of terrorist attacks at a rate never seen before.

    Thanks this post gave me the shivers!


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    #108
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Some people, like myself just refuse to believe in the narrative being propagated by mainstream media and western politicians. That's a distinct difference from endorsing Assad, so please stop exaggerating.

    There have been independent journalists and also hundreds of reporters and journalists from all over the world who brought us news from Syria

    I doubt they are all invited into some smokey room and told to give a certain narrative across hundreds of TV and radio stations, broadsheets and internet outlets all over the world


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    #109
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Nobody is defending Assad, that's all in your head. Some people, like myself just refuse to believe in the narrative being propagated by mainstream media and western politicians. That's a distinct difference from endorsing Assad, so please stop exaggerating.

    So who are these mainstream journalists you are talking about?? Seymour Hersch? Robert Fisk? Many in the mainstream media have been heavily critical of the wests actions in the middle east.

    And while we're at it both Blair and Bush were re-elected post Iraq War. So their policies weren't as unpopular with the electorate as you try to make out.


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    #110
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Right so, the motives of US, UK and France in Syria are purely altruistic.
    David Cameron is spending millions supporting Jihadis in Syria while UK citizens queue up at food banks.

    David Cameron and Barack Obama genuinely care about human rights of each and every Syrian, of course they do, how stupid of me.


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    #111
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,524 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Right so, the motives of US, UK and France in Syria are purely altruistic.
    David Cameron is spending millions supporting Jihadis in Syria while UK citizens queue up at food banks.

    David Cameron and Barack Obama genuinely cares about human rights of each and every Syrian, of course he does.

    There is no harm in being a little cynical. But when you take cynicism to absurd levels you end up looking as foolish as the extremely gullible.


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    #112
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Sand wrote: »
    There is no harm in being a little cynical. But when you take cynicism to absurd levels you end up looking as foolish as the extremely gullible.

    Well, I'm still awaiting your explanation as to why US/UK and France want to remove Assad.

    Let's hear it....won't be holding my breath.


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    #113
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    and for the 900th effing time, the UK isn't "supporting Jihadis in Syria"

    Cameron's government is actively trying to stop British people from going over there and joining fundamentalist brigades


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    #114
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    and for the 900th effing time, the UK isn't "supporting Jihadis in Syria"

    Cameron's government is actively trying to stop British people from going over there and joining fundamentalist brigades

    Really, what's he doing to stop it? You think I'm gullible? That's laughable.


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    #115
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,524 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Well, I'm still awaiting your explanation as to why US/UK and France want to remove Assad.

    Let's hear it....won't be holding my breath.


    Hardold Weiss: "Nobody is defending Assad, that's all in your head. Some people, like myself just refuse to believe in the narrative being propagated by mainstream media and western politicians. That's a distinct difference from endorsing Assad, so please stop exaggerating."

    realweirdo: "So who are these mainstream journalists you are talking about?? Seymour Hersch? Robert Fisk? Many in the mainstream media have been heavily critical of the wests actions in the middle east."

    :)

    You ran from the implications of that as fast as your legs could carry you, didn't you? Want to talk about something "safe" and completely unrelated like US/UK/French actions in Syria, right?

    Like I said, you end up looking absurd when you are too cynical that you end up denying reality.


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    #116
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    Sand wrote: »
    Hardold Weiss: "Nobody is defending Assad, that's all in your head. Some people, like myself just refuse to believe in the narrative being propagated by mainstream media and western politicians. That's a distinct difference from endorsing Assad, so please stop exaggerating."

    realweirdo: "So who are these mainstream journalists you are talking about?? Seymour Hersch? Robert Fisk? Many in the mainstream media have been heavily critical of the wests actions in the middle east."

    :)

    You ran from the implications of that as fast as your legs could carry you, didn't you? Want to talk about something "safe" and completely unrelated like US/UK/French actions in Syria, right?

    Like I said, you end up looking absurd when you are too cynical that you end up denying reality.

    Again, I'll ask you to provide an explanation as to why US/UK and France want to topple Assad.

    Do you have an explanation or should I presume you don't at least have a reasonable explanation.

    Let me guess, UK/US want to free the oppressed people of Syria, right?


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    #117
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Well, I'm still awaiting your explanation as to why US/UK and France want to remove Assad.

    Let's hear it....won't be holding my breath.

    Ok lets start at the very beginning..

    So you think its ok for one family to rule a country for 40 years and rig election after election? You think its ok for him to deliberately target civilians in bread queues with barrel bombs? You think its ok to randomly shell civilian areas?

    By the way if the west really wanted to remove Assad he would have been gone long ago. Even someone as naive as you know that.


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    #118
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Again, I'll ask you to provide an explanation as to why US/UK and France want to topple Assad.

    Do you have an explanation or should I presume you don't at least have a reasonable explanation.

    Let me guess, UK/US want to free the oppressed people of Syria, right?

    You are just rehashing garbled cliches from the Iraq War. Its tiresome at this stage.


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    #119
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Ok lets start at the very beginning..

    So you think its ok for one family to rule a country for 40 years and rig election after election?

    No I don't, but US/UK support Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar, don't they?
    So why do you believe US/UK care about Syrians?
    You think its ok for him to deliberately target civilians in bread queues with barrel bombs? You think its ok to randomly shell civilian areas?

    No, I don't, do you think it's okay for US to target civilians with drones?
    By the way if the west really wanted to remove Assad he would have been gone long ago. Even someone as naive as you know that.

    Naive as me? Haha..take a look in the mirror.


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    #120
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,524 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    Again, I'll ask you to provide an explanation as to why US/UK and France want to topple Assad.

    Do you have an explanation or should I presume you don't at least have a reasonable explanation.

    Ha, you'll be waiting quite a while. I wont waste my time talking to someone who refuses to engage with other's points like you have done here.


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    #121
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    realweirdo wrote: »
    You are just rehashing garbled cliches from the Iraq War. Its tiresome at this stage.

    I know you're desperately trying to forget the huge strategic blunders by US/UK in Iraq but unfortunately, ignoring problems doesn't make them disappear.


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