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Ivor Bell arrested and charged in Jean McConville murder investigation

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    #692
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    What are you on about? How can anyone talk about these issues without it relating back to a territory?
    But why is territory determined by geography?
    Karl Stein wrote: »
    So? The vast majority of the people of Ireland wanted the British to go home.
    Yes. And quite possibly the vast majority of people in the state of the UK of GB and I wanted to maintain the state.
    So whose call is it? And on what basis to you decide this. Determined though you are not to see it, there is a non-trivial question here.
    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Unionists were concentrated in parts of the 6 counties not uniformly throughout.
    Exactly. Just as Irish nationalists were concentrated in parts of the UK (i.e. Ireland) and not uniformly throughout. Do you think there would have been a state for, let’s call them republicans, if they were dispersed throughout the UK and not concentrated in Ireland?
    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Irish separatists? Lol. Honestly that sounds ridiculous.
    Does it? Let’s see. They were Irish. And they wanted a separate state from the UK. Sounds un-ridiculous to me.
    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Anyway, on what basis shouldn't it have been decided in respect of the whole island?
    I don’t. This is certainly one candidate for rightful constituency. I simply make the point that it is not the only one and it is not at all obvious what the “true” rightful one is.

    For example, I presume you would agree that a part of what was the UK (Ireland) should have been permitted to cede from the rest of the UK 100 years ago, as most people in that part of the UK state wanted it?

    But I think I can also presume that you would vehemently disagree that a part of the new Ireland state (NI) should not have been permitted to cede from Ireland, even though most people in that part of the Ireland state wanted it?

    How do you justify the inconsistency?


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    #693
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    But why is territory determined by geography?

    I'm not sure what you mean? Are you familiar with the term geopolitics?
    Geopolitics is the study of the effects of geography (both human and physical) on international politics and international relations.

    Territory is often defined by geography. Mountains seas and rivers separate territories.
    Yes. And quite possibly the vast majority of people in the state of the UK of GB and I wanted to maintain the state.

    I'll have to stop you there. Who voted in favour of this state of GB & Ireland and where are you getting this 'quite possibly' notion from? GB & Ireland were 'united' only by the threat of terrorism on the part of the British.
    I don’t. This is certainly one candidate for rightful constituency. I simply make the point that it is not the only one and it is not at all obvious what the “true” rightful one is.

    It's not clear what you're saying here.
    For example, I presume you would agree that a part of what was the UK (Ireland) should have been permitted to cede from the rest of the UK 100 years ago, as most people in that part of the UK state wanted it?

    Nobody in Ireland ever voted for a UK of GB & Ireland in the first place rendering your ridiculous 'analogy' meaningless.
    most people in that part of the Ireland state wanted it?

    Down the rabbit hole we go. 'Most people' in 'that part'.

    Where do you stop with this line of reason? Do you think a Dublin neighbourhood's calls to be recognised as part of the UK should be respected?


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    #694
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Nobody in Ireland ever voted for a UK of GB & Ireland in the first place rendering your ridiculous 'analogy' meaningless.
    Irrelevant. First, few if any countries / states at that time, or since, were endorsed by a popular plebiscite. But even if there had been a vote, a majority of UK citizens would probably have voted to retain the union of the two islands. The Irish would have largely voted against but would have been outnumbered by the much larger population in Britain.

    Similarly, if a 32 county state had been granted 100 years ago then the unionists, had there been a vote, would have voted against but would have been outnumbered by nationalists.

    You of course would object to the first but see no issue with the second.

    Surely it beholds anyone in any discussion to be consistent in their reasoning? And when inconsistencies are pointed out they must reconcile them, something you haven’t done so far.


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    #695
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Around the world the British have paid a heavy price for taking geography that didn't belong to them.
    Almost all of their colonial chickens came home to roost, and yet still they are at it, bombing and bludgeoning peoples (usually poor) into the acceptance of their gifts, whether it is wanted or not.

    You mean the same way the PIRA tried to bomb and bludgeon people in to accepting a United Ireland, whether it is wanted or not?


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    #696
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You mean the same way the PIRA tried to bomb and bludgeon people in to accepting a United Ireland, whether it is wanted or not?

    Defence of your fellow countrymen/women is a legitimate action, the IRA where not involved in imperialist expansion and control of the resources of other sovereign countries.
    While I think the IRA campaign went on too long, I see no similarity with how the British have behaved for centuries and are still behaving.


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    #697
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Defence of your fellow countrymen/women is a legitimate action

    And the murder of them is not. Which is the point being made. Top marks for attempting to defend the indefensible all the same.


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    #698
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Karl Stein wrote: »

    Territory is often defined by geography. Mountains seas and rivers separate territories.

    You might as well stop there because you are arguing in circles.

    The British Isles are a geographical unit. The island of Ireland is a geographical unit. The Aran Islands are a geographical unit. Rockall is a geographical unit.

    You won't progress the discussion with that idea.
    Karl Stein wrote: »

    I'll have to stop you there. Who voted in favour of this state of GB & Ireland and where are you getting this 'quite possibly' notion from? GB & Ireland were 'united' only by the threat of terrorism on the part of the British.

    Nobody in Ireland ever voted for a UK of GB & Ireland in the first place rendering your ridiculous 'analogy' meaningless.


    Once more an obsession with the past. As a matter of fact, the Act of Union was passed by a democratic parliament. It may not have been a universally elected democratic parliament, but by the standards of the day, it was the most democratic parliament in the Western World.

    The reality of the situation is that the people of Ireland voted as part of the Good Friday Agreement referenda to maintain the partition of Ireland. The people down South could have rejected the amendments to Articles 2 and 3 in order to maintain the territorial claim but they chose to give up that claim and turn it into an aspiration.

    Achieving future unity is like reaching the horizon. We will always journey towards it but we will never get there.


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Defence of your fellow countrymen/women is a legitimate action, the IRA where not involved in imperialist expansion and control of the resources of other sovereign countries.
    While I think the IRA campaign went on too long, I see no similarity with how the British have behaved for centuries and are still behaving.


    As I keep asking, who are the people obsessed with history and the past around here? British imperialist expansion is history.


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    #699
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    alastair wrote: »
    And the murder of them is not. Which is the point being made. Top marks for attempting to defend the indefensible all the same.

    Which is what the thread is all about, the murder of their fellow citizen by the IRA.


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    #700
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    And the murder of them is not. Which is the point being made. Top marks for attempting to defend the indefensible all the same.

    Murder is never right, and I have never defended it, by anybody.

    Simplistic analysis of why a situation spiraled tragically out of control is not right either.
    When a government abdicates it's responsibilities, and supports one side, then the lid will invariably come off. Has happened all around the world, no different here.


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    #701
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Murder is never right, and I have never defended it, by anybody.

    .

    That is a very broad statement.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The motivation for doing that is important. If she was indeed giving sensitive information that endangered others then unfortunately that has to be taken into account, just as we must take into account how other armies and governments have dealt with informers throughout history.

    Looks like a duck.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I haven't made my mind up about McConville either.

    Walks like a duck.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    1. Loads of women died in the troubles.
    2. Widows where created and died in the troubles.
    3. Plenty of mothers died in the troubles
    4. There where plenty of disappeared.
    5. That is the political football .

    Quacks like a duck.


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    #702
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    That is a very broad statement.



    Looks like a duck.



    Walks like a duck.



    Quacks like a duck.

    Do you think all killings in NI where murder? I need a yes or no answer to that before I continue this debate, or if you can't give a yes or no...please make the distinction for us.


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    #703
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Do you think all killings in NI where murder? I need a yes or no answer to that before I continue this debate.

    There's a possibility you'll draw a line under the 'it's all the Brits fault - partition can only lead to violence' abdication of personal responsibility for violence? I doubt it.

    You're an armchair enabler for the mindset that whitewashes murder - see your equivocation over Jean mcConville's murder for just one exemplar. As I said - trying to defend the indefensible.


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    #704
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    There's a possibility you'll draw a line under the 'it's all the Brits fault - partition can only lead to violence' abdication of personal responsibility for violence? I doubt it.

    You're an armchair enabler for the mindset that whitewashes murder - see your equivocation over Jean mcConville's murder for just one exemplar. As I said - trying to defend the indefensible.

    I'll direct the same question at you Alastair before I continue. Please answer it, don't be answering it for me.


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    #705
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'll direct the same question at you Alastair before I continue. Please answer it, don't be answering it for me.

    I'll opt for option B - you don't continue in the debate. You've spun your 'blame the brits / abdicate responsibility' routine for long enough.

    Dissembling over the legal definition of murder won't help your position at all, and the whole 'defence of your fellow countrymen/women' doesn't actually wash for anyone with any degree of critical faculty.


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    #706
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I'll opt for option B - you don't continue in the debate. You've spun your 'blame the brits / abdicate responsibility' routine for long enough.

    Dissembling over the legal definition of murder won't help your position at all, and the whole 'defence of your fellow countrymen/women' doesn't actually wash for anyone with any degree of critical faculty.

    Do you think all killing in NI where 'murder'. If not, please make the distinction?
    We cannot proceed until we do.


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    #707
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    We cannot proceed until we do.

    As I say - I'm more than happy for you to take your ball and not play any more.


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    #708
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    As I say - I'm more than happy for you to take your ball and not play any more.

    I'm not suprised that you won't go near the question.


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    #709
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I'm not suprised that you won't go near the question.

    Continuing on the playground theme I see.


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    #710
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Continuing on the playground theme I see.

    No, asking for a clarification, 'where all killing in NI, murders, and if not, please tell us the distinction?
    Simple question...or is it?


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    #711
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No, asking for a clarification, 'where all killing in NI, murders, and if not, please tell us the distinction?
    Simple question...or is it?

    I'm assuming you mean 'were'?, but you have my answer already - You committed to toddle off if you didn't get your way? Surely that wasn't empty bluster?


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    #712
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm assuming you mean 'were'?, but you have my answer already - You committed to toddle off if you didn't get your way? Surely that wasn't empty bluster?

    You just can't help with the arrogance.:rolleyes:
    Anyway, trust me, I have a distinction. But as Godge accused me of being ambivalent on the issue, I think it only fair that he defines before we continue.


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    #713
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You just can't help with the arrogance.:rolleyes:
    Anyway, trust me, I have a distinction. But as Godge accused me of being ambivalent on the issue, I think it only fair that he defines before we continue.
    He can speak for himself, but I don't think he called you 'ambivalent' - it looks more like calling you out as a hypocrite to me. Hopefully you're clearer as to my reading of your position?


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    #714
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    He can speak for himself, but I don't think he called you 'ambivalent' - it looks more like calling you out as a hypocrite to me. Hopefully you're clearer as to my reading of your position?

    Ok, hypocrite then. Which I am allowed to defend and we are all entitled to know how he/she makes the distinction.
    If you haven't the courage to answer the question, bow out please.


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    #715
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ok, hypocrite then. Which I am allowed to defend and we are all entitled to know how he/she makes the distinction.
    If you haven't the courage to answer the question, bow out please.

    I've given you my answer - and I'm not bowing out, cheers. That was your petulant threat, not mine.


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    #716
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I've given you my answer - and I'm not bowing out, cheers. That was your petulant threat, not mine.

    Where did I say 'I was bowing out' petulantly or otherwise?

    I have been accused of being a hypocrite by you and you claim Godge said the same.
    I am entitled to defend that and I need to know what what definitions are being used.

    Again, where all killings in NI, murders. If not, what is the distinction?


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    #717
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Murder is never right, and I have never defended it, by anybody.

    .
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Do you think all killings in NI where murder? I need a yes or no answer to that before I continue this debate, or if you can't give a yes or no...please make the distinction for us.


    I am happy to go through them one by one with you to expose the hypocrisy of your statement.

    Let us start with Jean McConville who is the subject of this thread.

    The murder of Jean McConville was wrong, do you agree with that?


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    #718
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Where did I say 'I was bowing out' petulantly or otherwise?
    I need a yes or no answer to that before I continue this debate
    I'll direct the same question at you Alastair before I continue.

    You appear to be continuing regardless.


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    #719
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Do you think all killing in NI where 'murder'. If not, please make the distinction?
    We cannot proceed until we do.


    I have been thinking further on this question and it is a nonsense.

    For a start, a number of killings in Northern Ireland have been judged by the courts to be manslaughter. Here is one example:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490683-armagh-fire/

    Here is another:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-22996195

    I assume you support the rule of law, so we can only conclude that not all killings in Northern Ireland are murder. So the only way to do this is to go through them one by one. So, as I said, let us start with the subject of this thread. Once you have accepted that the killing of Jean McConville was murder, we can move on to the next one.


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    #720
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I am happy to go through them one by one with you to expose the hypocrisy of your statement.

    Let us start with Jean McConville who is the subject of this thread.

    The murder of Jean McConville was wrong, do you agree with that?

    I don't have a problem answering you once you answer the clarifying question I asked.
    Are you defining all killings in NI as murder?


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    #721
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't have a problem answering you once you answer the clarifying question I asked.
    Are you defining all killings in NI as murder?


    I have answered it. It would be absurd to define all killings in NI as murder because the courts have found that in some cases they were manslaughter. See the response again below.
    Godge wrote: »
    I have been thinking further on this question and it is a nonsense.

    For a start, a number of killings in Northern Ireland have been judged by the courts to be manslaughter. Here is one example:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490683-armagh-fire/

    Here is another:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-22996195

    I assume you support the rule of law, so we can only conclude that not all killings in Northern Ireland are murder. So the only way to do this is to go through them one by one. So, as I said, let us start with the subject of this thread. Once you have accepted that the killing of Jean McConville was murder, we can move on to the next one.

    So once again, if you respect the courts, you need to go through the killings one by one. What are you afraid of?


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