What is your role in post-zombie apocalypse?

Paddy Cow · 03-01-2014 2:36am #1

We spend a great deal of time discussing how we would survive initially, what weapons we would need, where to hide etc but what happens post apocalypse? Lets give a time frame for survival of at most 2 years. I'm assuming a few things here.......If you haven't seen all the episodes of The Walking Dead, don't read the first one!

1 This is not a Walking Dead apocalypse. If you are not bitten, you are not infected.

2 Zombies can't live forever. Because of their lack of hygiene/poor eating and drinking habits/not taking care of their bodies etc, eventually an infected person will become too broken to be able to move and will no longer be a threat.

3 Given the time frame, all infected people are dead. All that is left are the living.

What type of society would we form and what would be your role? Would we hold onto civilisation or would we revert to our basic and more brutal ways of life? Equality is a construct of the last century. Humans have been on the planet for thousands of years but it's only in the past hundred or so that women were considered people in their own right who weren't just hysterical creatures who needed the protection of their male relatives and were actually allowed to vote. Not long before that, a males' standing in society depended upon his material worth. Then there is the slave issue. Didn't matter if you were man, woman or child, you were considered property if bought at an auction or won as a "prize" if taken in a raid.

So what do you think. Given complete lawlessness and anarchy, how would the survivors regroup? Realistically cities would not be able to be repopulated as they would contain a ratio of decay that the survivors (what with dead bodies and general risk of infection etc) couldn't remove in a safe way. This leaves pockets of rural settlements. Would that set us back into medieval times and a feudal system?

History has shown us that until recently the "strong" have survived. In an apocalypse situation, would you hold onto your humanity and treat everyone as equals and want to restore democracy, or would you be so jaded from surviving two years of hell that you would be capable of doing (by nowadays standards) deplorable acts?

Tl:dr In a post zombie apocalypse world,if there were no laws and no repercussions so you lived in a world where "bad" behaviour was rewarded, would you still be a "good" person?

Kromdar · 03-01-2014 2:04pm

The balance between the smart and the strong is needed.

smart = restore previous technology, increase the quality of life [drinkable water, electricity]
strong = brute force will win a fight, but up until a point where it can be replaced with tech [think a load of lads with sticks and small arms vs a few people with missiles or a helo or something].

so, yes, the strong will survive initially. but the smart will be required to make them prosper.

the fallout series are a good comparison, you have raiders that are good at killing and don't hesitate to mutilate people, but its simply to steal their tech and supplies. The opposite, the "good" people, are generally survivors. communities are run by people trying to help each other, and its at these places you will find the smart people trying to rebuild society.

then you have the neutral, mercenaries etc. who will fight on behalf of whoever is paying them the most.

there are plenty of other examples from the media, albeit somewhat skewed in favour of one or the other ; but ultimately i think that after a brief period of territorial disputes and skirmishes, society will become what it once was. it may evolve along the path of our own history, i.e. regional kings to provincial leaders then to a national council, and so on

in a personal capacity i'd be pro-survivor, and aim at restoring tech/rebuilding or acting as a medic.

Tzar Chasm · 03-01-2014 2:04pm

well I'm not really a good person to start, apocalypse or not, however I do think I would be a Useful person in a post apocalyptic scenario, what with my physics degree and practical knowledge on a range of subjects. and thats what will earn people positions in a post apocalypse society.

I dont think we would be all that barbaric, at least not within our own groups, a certain element of tribalisim may return, but at the heart of it humans are pragmatic creatures, we would ultimatley see the sense in cooperation and trade over war and plunder.

sure I could murder you all and steal your crops tomorrow, but who would harvest those crops next year? ultimatley it is in our best interest to cooperate.

also I would see the issue of equality being a minor one, when all hands equally useful in picking spuds, its hard to argue that they are no equal in all other aspects.

ScumLord · 03-01-2014 2:25pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

What type of society would we form and what would be your role? Would we hold onto civilisation or would we revert to our basic and more brutal ways of life? Equality is a construct of the last century.

I don't think you're giving a very fair assessment of ancient and prehistoric peoples. The ideal of equality has been around, tried and tested for thousands of years (humans have been around for at least 70,000 years as modern thinking humans. You have to remember we had to go from an animal to civilised by trial and error, we had no clue what we were doing and that takes a long time to work out.

humans are social animals, in a crisis we will herd and cling to other people, we won't want to be alone. While there will be people looking to take advantage of the panic, I believe the vast majority will pull together and try and help eachother out as much as possible. If we look at humans in disaster situations that's always what happens. Typhoons, earthquakes and so on always get the entire planet on the move to help. It'll be no different in a zombie outbreak which will unfortunately be our downfall in many respects.

Even if the disease forces people to avoid strangers they will inevitably end up trading. Trade is one of the most fundamental parts of human society.

Humans have been on the planet for thousands of years but it's only in the past hundred or so that women were considered people in their own right who weren't just hysterical creatures who needed the protection of their male relatives and were actually allowed to vote.

Again not really fair on the people around back then. Democracy was first thought up over 2000 years ago and that's just the first recorded version of it. We were exactly the same animal back then we just didn't have the information, we weren't irrational or hysterical.

Even on slaves, which would you rather, being alone out in the countryside with no protection, or being someones slave? Which means being looked after, feed and doing work you'd probably have to do as a free man anyway. While slavery seems bad under current circumstance in a chaotic world it means shelter and food.

I don't see us slipping back to much to be honest, we have the information, we're socialised in the sense we grew up and adapted to living in a fair society, it's not so easy to just erase all your programing and start killing people for apples.

There will be small scale battles and rampant thievery, rape, murder but those will be on the outskirts of human society like today. The vast majority of people are parents providing for their children, what parents have always wanted throughout history was stability. We keep focusing on that bad things humans do, like war not realising that the vast majority of people have always lead quiet lives on their farms or workshops providing resources for their neighbours.

laoch na mona · 03-01-2014 2:51pm

we would the opportunity to build a new system so id go for creating an anarchist society

Tzar Chasm · 03-01-2014 2:57pm

honestly I would see a rise in National Socialisim as the dominating ethos, the ability to bind people together in fervent support of a simplistic message and a few wishy washy promises of things being better would be sufficent, throw in the threat of Z's and you have a justification for militarisim.

once you get the people swept up in the whole energy of it you have a steamroller of progress, or death and destruction depending on the route you take

ScumLord · 03-01-2014 3:00pm

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

honestly I would see a rise in National Socialisim as the dominating ethos,

I could see it too, democracy is too slow a process for troubled times. Although there are examples of people defaulting to democracy under new circumstances (Iceland and the Vikings). The benefit of democracy is the blame isn't lumped on one person and there's a distinct lack of leadership in Ireland.

Kromdar · 03-01-2014 6:50pm

would a barter / trading based society emerge first? people need supplies and the scavengers willing to go and get them, or travellling traders would surely prosper with this kind of demand?

ScumLord · 03-01-2014 7:10pm

Kromdar wrote: »

would a barter / trading based society emerge first? people need supplies and the scavengers willing to go and get them, or travellling traders would surely prosper with this kind of demand?

There would only be barter, money is completely worthless unless people agree it has worth. I could actually see travellers being the main trading group in the country, they would know where a lot of stuff is and would probably be willing to travel all over the place trading it. Travellers were always welcomed into town in the past, the name tinker comes from the fact they were excellent blacksmiths and could do all sorts of repair work.

RiderOnTheStorm · 08-01-2014 1:18pm

Interesting topic.

I always thought I would be some sort of solo survivor (small farm or fishing), or maybe join a small community in the later years. Never considered being a wandering trader. That could be the best of both worlds. Me and a few (armed) mates, going from town to town 'buying' up whats plentyful in one place and 'selling' it in another ..... It would be a hard job in the longterm (no place to call home, and always living on your wits with a target on your back)....... mmmmm, might have talked myself out of it.

Would not see myself as a raider type. Would def earn my way morally, but would have no problem doing a preemptive strike if raider were in the area ;-)

jonnyalways · 08-01-2014 1:57pm

Lone wolf type in my dreams, always liked the idea of been the Postman (from the book not the movie)

ScumLord · 08-01-2014 7:53pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

Never considered being a wandering trader. That could be the best of both worlds. Me and a few (armed) mates, going from town to town 'buying' up whats plentyful in one place and 'selling' it in another ..... It would be a hard job in the longterm (no place to call home, and always living on your wits with a target on your back)....... mmmmm, might have talked myself out of it.

It would be extremely dangerous too, you'd have to be a hard bastard to be trading in that type of environment. All we have to do is look to Somalia for some idea of what trading in a lawless area is like. Even the buying and selling would lead to a lot of moralistic grey areas. Ripping off struggling families, not able to show mercy in case people think you're weak and target your convoys. People would have to be very afraid of you so they don't go stealing from you or selling you crap, which is why travellers would be great at it. Regardless of the facts people are scared of travellers but also know travellers as traders already.

I wouldn't be a lone raider, I'd want to be part of a community. You lose out on so much by going it alone.

Paddy Cow · 08-01-2014 7:56pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't be a lone raider, I'd want to be part of a community. You lose out on so much by going it alone.

More likely to die too. Something as simple as a sprained ankle would hinder you to the point of being life threatening.

jonnyalways · 09-01-2014 11:49am

that would be my luck, survive the zombie apocalypse and die from some innocuous infection.

Kromdar · 09-01-2014 12:35pm

the fallout caravan template: 2 gunners / mercs and a trader. gotta have a frontman who can make that sales pitch.

Tzar Chasm · 09-01-2014 12:59pm

come on down to tzars bargain barrow, we got all your post apoca.lyptic needs, reasonable rates, open to offers.

the trader would need to be proficient with defence too, so really need 3 gunners, one of whom can handle the trading

tomh903 · 27-02-2014 7:43pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

We spend a great deal of time discussing how we would survive initially, what weapons we would need, where to hide etc but what happens post apocalypse? Lets give a time frame for survival of at most 2 years. I'm assuming a few things here.......If you haven't seen all the episodes of The Walking Dead, don't read the first one!
1 This is not a Walking Dead apocalypse. If you are not bitten, you are not infected.

2 Zombies can't live forever. Because of their lack of hygiene/poor eating and drinking habits/not taking care of their bodies etc, eventually an infected person will become too broken to be able to move and will no longer be a threat.

3 Given the time frame, all infected people are dead. All that is left are the living.

What type of society would we form and what would be your role? Would we hold onto civilisation or would we revert to our basic and more brutal ways of life? Equality is a construct of the last century. Humans have been on the planet for thousands of years but it's only in the past hundred or so that women were considered people in their own right who weren't just hysterical creatures who needed the protection of their male relatives and were actually allowed to vote. Not long before that, a males' standing in society depended upon his material worth. Then there is the slave issue. Didn't matter if you were man, woman or child, you were considered property if bought at an auction or won as a "prize" if taken in a raid.

So what do you think. Given complete lawlessness and anarchy, how would the survivors regroup? Realistically cities would not be able to be repopulated as they would contain a ratio of decay that the survivors (what with dead bodies and general risk of infection etc) couldn't remove in a safe way. This leaves pockets of rural settlements. Would that set us back into medieval times and a feudal system?

History has shown us that until recently the "strong" have survived. In an apocalypse situation, would you hold onto your humanity and treat everyone as equals and want to restore democracy, or would you be so jaded from surviving two years of hell that you would be capable of doing (by nowadays standards) deplorable acts?

Tl:dr In a post zombie apocalypse world,if there were no laws and no repercussions so you lived in a world where "bad" behaviour was rewarded, would you still be a "good" person?

Well most likely we would return to walling off our settlements and leaving massive swaths of the country in bandits hands. In terms of government, the rule of one person (i.e a king) would have to return as democracy would leave the people too divided in such an extreme scenario. The initial years after the outbreak would be focused on consolidating the defence of your settlement and ensuring a stable food supply. After something closely resembling a society has been formed, settlements would start trying to gain influence over the surrounding areas. All in all, it would be like medieval feudal times.

riffmongous · 08-03-2014 3:36am

Mad Max style motorcycle raider gang anyone? I guess in Ireland it mightn't work so well what with the lack of good roads, plus there isnt really the climate for assless chaps :P But how would the principle of a small mobile group like that work? I dont think fuel supply would really be a problem for quite some time to be honest

Tzar Chasm · 09-03-2014 8:12pm

Fuel degradation would start becoming an issue in as little as a month.

realistically biodiesel is go7ng to be the only real option by about 6 months.

picture your roving gang on quads

Sulla Felix · 24-03-2014 12:05am

ScumLord wrote: »

It would be extremely dangerous too, you'd have to be a hard bastard to be trading in that type of environment. All we have to do is look to Somalia for some idea of what trading in a lawless area is like. Even the buying and selling would lead to a lot of moralistic grey areas. Ripping off struggling families, not able to show mercy in case people think you're weak and target your convoys. People would have to be very afraid of you so they don't go stealing from you or selling you crap, which is why travellers would be great at it. Regardless of the facts people are scared of travellers but also know travellers as traders already.

I wouldn't be a lone raider, I'd want to be part of a community. You lose out on so much by going it alone.

So part of a community of raiders?

Max001 · 02-04-2014 10:56pm

I'd suggest that your ability to make choices on a role would be over-ridden by what skills and experience you possess, which would dictate your role in the short-term.

I reckon Walking Dead is a reasonable approximation of what life would be like in the short to medium term.

Anyone with access to firearms and lots of ammunition, plus the training to use and maintain them would have a big advantage, given such weapons are tightly controlled here. By firearms I mean pistols, revolvers, H&K MP5 etc for use within buildings and assault weapons for outdoors.

Food and fuel will be exhausted very quickly, given that supermarkets and petrol stations only stock for a few days.

Priorities will be: Weapons, food and water, fuel, medicine and a secure location that can be defended by a small group.

Key roles will be: Armed forager/guard, mechanic, medic, leader to build a cohesive group.

There's a quote about society only ever being two meals away from anarchy / revolution. That might give you some sense of how quickly things would unravel.

If you recall the riots that occurred in a few English cities following the police shooting of an unarmed suspect in summer 2011. Many areas became no-go for the police / emergency services and it took a few days at least to restore order. I imagine that in some Cobra meetings, consideration was given to putting the army on the streets, because the police couldn't respond fast enough. What occurred in 2011, only happened in a few cities but it effected stock markets around the world. In western democracies we have policing by consent. Once that consent disappears, its anarchy.

Lets hope it never happens.

ScumLord · 03-04-2014 4:37pm

Max001 wrote: »

I'd suggest that your ability to make choices on a role would be over-ridden by what skills and experience you possess, which would dictate your role in the short-term.

That's true, if you're good at something you'll be forced into doing it. Otherwise you're an expendable grunt.

By firearms I mean pistols, revolvers, H&K MP5 etc for use within buildings and assault weapons for outdoors.

They're much rarer in this country, only really the guards, military, paramilitaries (although I'd say a lot of their guns are being sold on the black market) and drug dealers have access to those kinds of weapons. I don't think we'll see our defense forces coming out armed with weapons, the weapons will be mostly ineffective meaning the lose of any forces that try to engage zombies using guns, they won't leave much behind either, expect guns to be emptied with no easy access to ammunition for them.

Food and fuel will be exhausted very quickly, given that supermarkets and petrol stations only stock for a few days.

There are stockpiles of food in the likes of farmers Co-ops, growing food is pretty easy here too, there will be tons of food in the ground depending on the time of year. Country folk will be able to find food, they probably already buy things like eggs off a local farmer.

Priorities will be: Weapons, food and water, fuel, medicine and a secure location that can be defended by a small group.

The priorities for most people will be water, food, shelter. In that order, I think we'll have to construct weapons or use tools as weapons. I think there will be people that see being armed as dangerous and that being armed could attract more danger. Most people will just run from danger and zombies, we just don't have the stomach for fighting.

Key roles will be: Armed forager/guard, mechanic, medic, leader to build a cohesive group.

I think we'll go right back to a pagan, celtic type of group, mostly groups of 2 - 4 families, all men will be expected to fight but leadership would be an issue.

riffmongous · 03-04-2014 5:05pm

Interesting idea about going back to an earlier style settlement, I wonder could the crannog and dún (with secret escapetunnel) work?

laoch na mona · 03-04-2014 6:22pm

who needs a leader id say it would be the perfect time to put revolutionary theory in practice, liberal democracy needs modernity once that's gone democracy as we perceive it collapses so id say communism or anarchism would be the way to go to avoid fascism coming to the fore

Kromdar · 03-04-2014 6:42pm

loving all the banter about guns. i was asked earlier in the thread bout their implications in the post-z world. this isn't america, and like scumlord said they're gonna be in specific hands. i recognise that the odd farmer might have one, but still.

the only real use for guns in a post-z environment is to enforce rule over other survivors.
what use is a 2 barrel or a single clip of ammo against a horde?

fyi, and i know it should merit its own thread, but i've come across a game, "Banished", it plays like a Age of Empires style game but the only enemy is pure survival. taking into consideration farming, materials, warmth, shelter and sustainability during winter months. there's no zombies to combat, but on the other hand there's no looting or weapons to worry about.

games like dayz or rust, which are survival based, seem to have quickly devolved into banditry and shenanigans, rather than survival. this game emphasizes survival and community welfare over a number of years, through the seasons.

also noteworthy are project zomboid and that other one, 7 days to die.

i must start a new thread for the latest z games...

degrassinoel · 03-04-2014 8:15pm

I've played banished, great little game, not as good as civ in that respect but you nailed it, it's about making your settlers survive and flourish. And it's not even remotely as easy as it sounds.

Max001 · 04-04-2014 12:37am

laoch na mona wrote: »

who needs a leader id say it would be the perfect time to put revolutionary theory in practice, liberal democracy needs modernity once that's gone democracy as we perceive it collapses so id say communism or anarchism would be the way to go to avoid fascism coming to the fore

Yeh. Because communism has been proven to work so well, hasn't it

Max001 · 04-04-2014 12:52am

ScumLord wrote: »

There are stockpiles of food in the likes of farmers Co-ops, growing food is pretty easy here too, there will be tons of food in the ground depending on the time of year. Country folk will be able to find food, they probably already buy things like eggs off a local farmer.

The priorities for most people will be water, food, shelter. In that order, I think we'll have to construct weapons or use tools as weapons. I think there will be people that see being armed as dangerous and that being armed could attract more danger. Most people will just run from danger and zombies, we just don't have the stomach for fighting.

The vast majority of the population are urban / suburban dwellers, with few ties to the countryside and little to no farming skills. Unless whatever location is settled includes a farm and the expertise to run it and defend it, we're going to be reliant on food we can scavenge until such times as sustainable food sources are developed.

Anyone who views being armed as dangerous, in the context of a zombie filled world is very quickly going to become lunch. Personally, I'd rather have a Glock on my hip and an H&K G36 assault rifle in my hands, plus a few hundred rounds of ammunition; than attempting to fight off the un-dead with a Bob the Builder tool set plus happy thoughts

degrassinoel · 04-04-2014 8:12am

The point which i think you missed is that, if this were America or somewhere with less strict firearm laws which don't prohibit the ownership of pistols and their ammunition from the general populace, your point might hold some sway, but it's Ireland in general that the scenario is taking place in.

There are many issues with guns in the P-ZA, noise being a dinnerbell, ammunition being limited, marksmanship, maintenance, and a whole host of others. I takes a lot of effort for such a small piece of lethal equipment to be viable on a large scale. Worth noting that the scenario takes place after the apocalypse which would leave you in a situation where you have little or no ammunition left (if you had any to begin with) anyway.

Also, guys and dolls, sidetracking the topic into a gun law or political debate isn't what the topic is about.

laoch na mona · 04-04-2014 9:35am

Max001 wrote: »

Yeh. Because communism has been proven to work so well, hasn't it

if you understood political theory you would know Stalinist russia was not communist. and as I said we would be building from scratch there would no no capitalist system or governments opposing communism, also anarchism is human nature we naturally like to work together

Kromdar · 04-04-2014 12:07pm

going back to the original topic of the thread, which is "what would your role be after the z's have sod off" [i'm paraphrasing there]...

scumlord, through his many posts in this forum, always points out that rural settlements will fare better due to remote location and access to farms, and more importantly the knowledge of farming.

others have pointed out the caravan option, travelling the country, buying and selling the goods.

i propose a 3rd option

i personally, in a post-apoc society, would like to start up a warehouse of scavenged parts. i would set up shop in a large industrial building, preferably with some sort of generator/welder, some tools, and a whole load of barbed wire. something akin to this [ah do you remember that game

].

anyway i would set up just outside a city, have a few scavengers looting the city. build some complicated defenses to act more of a deterrant than anything [we're keeping people out, not zombies, so the likes of barbed wire would actually deter them]. after that i would deal with the local traders and sell machinery parts, and buy food/seeds/etc. essentailly start a trade hub.

obviously the possibility of being attacked is an issue, but we'd be scavenging metal and parts mostly. unless some sort of mad-max-esque biker gang rolls around, we wont have a large supply of anything too valuable.

it has long been seen that trade hubs like that, be it in medieval times, post-cyberpunk space, or zombie apocalypse, always seem to thrive, because bandit or no, it has, or can get, the stuff you need. in pop culture they often develop into a neutral zone where people can get what they want and even get a decent nights sleep. and who says today's society isnt based on pop culture?!

thoughts?

What is your role in post-zombie apocalypse?

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