Venice holding referendum on secession from Italy

Scofflaw · 19-03-2014 3:01am #1

There's a lot of it about...this one is more like the Catalonian referendum than either the Crimean or Scottish referendums - it's not being acknowledged by Rome, but apparently there may be the will there to stop paying taxes to central government and pay them to local government instead in what would effectively be a unilateral declaration of independence.

The online referendum in the northern Italian province was launched on Sunday, the same day the majority of people in Crimea voted yes to seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia. But unlike the Crimean referendum, the Veneto one has not quite found itself in the media spotlight.

Nevertheless, about 3.8 million eligible Veneto resident voters will now be able, until Friday, to say if they would like to see the region an independent, sovereign and federative Republic of Veneto.

Veneto is one of the biggest and wealthiest provinces in Italy with a population of more than 5 million people. One of the main reasons for the vote is that the region is tired of the backbreaking burden of taxes imposed by Rome.

“We would like to continue the economic ties with Italy,” Lodovico Pizzati, the spokesman for the independence movement, told RT. “But from a fiscal standpoint there’s a huge gap between what we pay in taxes and what we receive as public service. We are talking about a difference of 20 billion euro.”

The latest polls, suggesting that about 65 percent of the population is in favor of becoming independent, have encouraged the independence movement leaders finally to have the region’s fate decided.

http://rt.com/news/veneto-referendum-unnoticed-eu-318/

and

They acknowledge that the vote is not binding on the national government in Rome and could cause a massive constitutional upheaval, but insist that if it passes, they will start taking steps to withhold taxes, in what would effectively be a unilateral declaration of independence.

"If there is a majority yes vote, we have scholars drawing up a declaration of independence and there are businesses in the region who say they will begin paying taxes to local authorities instead of to Rome," Lodovico Pizzati, the spokesman for the independence movement, told The Telegraph.

"It won't be like in Scotland, where London has said it will recognise a vote in favour of independence. Rome has tried to ignore us, but we are not going to wait for their recognition.

"People are fed up with the economic crisis and have had it with Rome.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10698299/Venice-prepares-for-referendum-on-secession-from-Italy.html

Interesting to see what the outcome is - I doubt it will be 95.5% in favour, anyway. But if it passes, will they go on to declare their independence?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Muahahaha · 19-03-2014 3:22pm

Economically they could easily survive on their own, it's a wealthy area with Venice itself being a world class tourist draw which attracts c15m tourists every year, in comparison Ireland as a whole had 6.5m tourists in 2011.

If they pulled away for independence and pay only local taxes then they risk being stonewalled by Rome, who could retaliate by making a new border crossing a time consuming affair in a way that only Italians can manage. They wouldn't get any support at EU level either which would be pretty crucial to their existence, if they are independent from Italy and therefore not a recognised EU member then Venetians might find that their boats are the ONLY way to get out of their province !

Scofflaw · 19-03-2014 3:49pm

It's interesting to see it happening - there seems to be a general move afoot towards this kind of separatism. Since I'd personally favour a Europe of city-states and small countries, I'll be pleased if this comes off for them.

And Venice has a much longer historical pedigree than Italy, of course.

cordially,
Scofflaw

imitation · 19-03-2014 5:11pm

I cant help but find the RT articles amusing, only thing is T-80s are tough to fit down those side streets.

Venetian indepence is an interesting one, on one hand there is massive wealth there, but venice itself is under threat from rising tides and has a fairly expensive tidal system under construction. Could an independent venice that just gave the 2 fingers to Italy or even europe foot the bill ? A few bad floods could drive down tourism and rich tenants

I'm not too sure about the greater Veneto region, is it Industially rich ?

Manach · 19-03-2014 5:32pm

Historically, (based on a book by John Norwich on the Mediterranean) Venice prospered due to a measure of excellent trading links with the Near/Mid east and a measure of ruthlessness when dealing with business rivals. So leaving aside the tourist aspect, their fortunes will really be tied to becoming an entreport to Europe which might be an issue with the EU decides to back the Rome government.

ardmacha · 19-03-2014 6:38pm

One wonders will they also seek to recapture Fiume.

carpejugulum · 19-03-2014 10:38pm

They built their wealth on exploitation but don't want to pay poor Italians' welfare any more?

Sheldons Brain · 20-03-2014 12:07am

carpejugulum wrote: »

They built their wealth on exploitation but don't want to pay poor Italians' welfare any more?

Exploitation = people give money to you
Welfare = you give money to people

seems straightforward enough.

Scofflaw · 20-03-2014 2:33am

carpejugulum wrote: »

They built their wealth on exploitation but don't want to pay poor Italians' welfare any more?

Hmm. The Most Serene Republic ended a little over two centuries ago - we can be reasonably sure that those who would now be paying poor Italians' welfare are not the same people who "built their wealth on exploitation".

Also...what exploitation, exactly? They built their wealth pretty much on the entrepot trade.

cordially,
Scofflaw

riffmongous · 20-03-2014 2:51am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. The Most Serene Republic ended a little over two centuries ago - we can be reasonably sure that those who would now be paying poor Italians' welfare are not the same people who "built their wealth on exploitation".

Also...what exploitation, exactly? They built their wealth pretty much on the entrepot trade.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Venice was the center of a slave trade iirc.

Scofflaw · 20-03-2014 3:58am

riffmongous wrote: »

Venice was the center of a slave trade iirc.

Well, a centre, early on, yes - 1100s to 1400s. Primarily Eastern European slaves to the Muslim countries, in numbers which are penny packets compared to the New World slave trade - about 1,000 slaves a year or so at high points.

It's not something Venice built its wealth on, compared to spices. More something which happened to be an article of trade, and Venice traded everything that could be traded. And, again, it's an entrepot trade - Venice was an exchange market, not a slave taking nation as were, for example, Portugal, Spain, France, Britain, Turkey, the Barbary Coast, most African kingdoms, etc etc etc. So I wouldn't regard the fact that there was a slave market in Venice as something which justifies the claim they "built their wealth on exploitation", not by a very long shot, either absolutely, or relative to other states.

Dublin had a pretty big slave market under the Vikings, and up to the 12th century - which is to say, it overlaps with the Venetian slave market. Would you say we "built our wealth on exploitation" on the basis of that?

cordially,
Scofflaw

carpejugulum · 20-03-2014 8:20pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. The Most Serene Republic ended a little over two centuries ago - we can be reasonably sure that those who would now be paying poor Italians' welfare are not the same people who "built their wealth on exploitation".

Also...what exploitation, exactly? They built their wealth pretty much on the entrepot trade.

cordially,
Scofflaw

slightly tongue in cheek
But they were still trading commodities that resulted from slavery and tremendous exploitation.

Either way, solidarity is one of the pillars of Western societies.
If countries dissolve into city states, we will finally be able to fix all pot holes in Dublin, but Donegal won't even have paved roads.

Eggy Baby! · 21-03-2014 1:44am

Why does Venice want to secede? Are there ethnic divisions (that area up in the top right of Italy has always been full of ethnic strife between Italians, Austrians, Slovenians, Croats etc.) or is it just a matter of taxes?

This vote seem to have come out of nowhere in my eyes because (a) it seems to have been brushed aside what with the crisis in Crimea and (b) because I'd always considered Venice and the area around it to be staunchly Italian (that is, part of the Italian motherland).

comongethappy · 21-03-2014 1:48am

They are moaning about taxes supporting the south.

Akin to a Dublin or London referendum to leave their respective nations.

Scofflaw · 21-03-2014 2:45am

carpejugulum wrote: »

slightly tongue in cheek
But they were still trading commodities that resulted from slavery and tremendous exploitation.

As was everybody else, of course. Slavery, oppression, and exploitation were socio-economic norms at the time.

carpejugulum wrote: »

Either way, solidarity is one of the pillars of Western societies.
If countries dissolve into city states, we will finally be able to fix all pot holes in Dublin, but Donegal won't even have paved roads.

The extent to which I feel that solidarity is occasionally impaired, I admit, by being told how grateful Dublin should be for the support of rural Ireland. And by Jackie Healy-Rae.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 21-03-2014 2:59am

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Why does Venice want to secede? Are there ethnic divisions (that area up in the top right of Italy has always been full of ethnic strife between Italians, Austrians, Slovenians, Croats etc.) or is it just a matter of taxes?

This vote seem to have come out of nowhere in my eyes because (a) it seems to have been brushed aside what with the crisis in Crimea and (b) because I'd always considered Venice and the area around it to be staunchly Italian (that is, part of the Italian motherland).

Italy is not a very old nation - a little bit older than Ireland. The constituent parts such as Venice, Milan, Genoa, Rome, Naples, had long independent and distinctive histories before that, while the only prior period of unity, under the Roman Empire, was washed away in a sea of population displacements.

So there's quite a good quote about Italy - "L'Italia è fatta. Restano da fare gli italiani" - Italy is made, now it remains to make Italians.

As to "staunchly Italian" - I would have said the reverse. The Liga Veneto, the Venetian separatist party, is the most popular party in the region. It's part of Lega Nord, which is basically a group of such regional separatist parties, and they've been going for nearly 25 years now.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View · 21-03-2014 9:48am

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Why does Venice want to secede?

They are upset about the state of their roads, some of their potholes are so big you need a boat to get across them! :-)

Eggy Baby! · 21-03-2014 2:34pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Italy is not a very old nation - a little bit older than Ireland. The constituent parts such as Venice, Milan, Genoa, Rome, Naples, had long independent and distinctive histories before that, while the only prior period of unity, under the Roman Empire, was washed away in a sea of population displacements.

So there's quite a good quote about Italy - "L'Italia è fatta. Restano da fare gli italiani" - Italy is made, now it remains to make Italians.

As to "staunchly Italian" - I would have said the reverse. The Liga Veneto, the Venetian separatist party, is the most popular party in the region. It's part of Lega Nord, which is basically a group of such regional separatist parties, and they've been going for nearly 25 years now.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Italy isn't an old nation, definitely, but its an old concept. Ireland isn't an old nation in a legal sense but yet places like Galway and Cork are considered inherently and historically Irish. Even then, Ireland was historically split into different kingdoms, but yet we don't hear talk of those seceding in a contemporary sense.

While I am aware about the period of Italian history where trade was dominated by these independent thalassocracies such as Venice and Genoa, I would have assumed that the Venetians (and the Genoese) would have relegated these periods of sovereignty to history. Guess I was wrong!

Scofflaw · 21-03-2014 4:20pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Italy isn't an old nation, definitely, but its an old concept. Ireland isn't an old nation in a legal sense but yet places like Galway and Cork are considered inherently and historically Irish. Even then, Ireland was historically split into different kingdoms, but yet we don't hear talk of those seceding in a contemporary sense.

Sure, but in our case things are rather different. Irish cities (bar Dublin) had no strong historical identity as separate from Ireland. Ireland had for a very long time the idea of a unitary country under a High King, however rare that may have been in practice.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

While I am aware about the period of Italian history where trade was dominated by these independent thalassocracies such as Venice and Genoa,

It wasn't just the thalassocracies. It was a patchwork of states:

Perhaps more importantly, some of these states were amongst the wealthiest and most powerful in Europe. Milan or Venice could have gone toe to toe with contemporary England easily, and coalitions of Italian city-states successfully resisted the Emperor and France.

I would have assumed that the Venetians (and the Genoese) would have relegated these periods of sovereignty to history. Guess I was wrong!

Hmm. Venice, 1000 years sovereign, Italian for 150 years. Which one looks like the historical anomaly?

cordially,
Scofflaw

crockholm · 22-03-2014 12:34pm

It would be Worth it just to hear an announcer say "and now the Doge of Venice shall address the council" over in Bruxelles.

Here's to the re-emergence of the Italian City States,the Free Imperial Cities and sure why not the old independent Hanseatic League cities too.

carpejugulum · 22-03-2014 2:51pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

The extent to which I feel that solidarity is occasionally impaired, I admit, by being told how grateful Dublin should be for the support of rural Ireland. And by Jackie Healy-Rae.
cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, loads of rural people deserve to be cut off for the constant bitching about Dublin.

MRnotlob606 · 22-03-2014 10:10pm

Italy is quite a diverse country

Victor · 22-03-2014 10:37pm

crockholm wrote: »

It would be Worth it just to hear an announcer say "and now the Doge of Venice shall address the council" over in Bruxelles.

Of course, independence would mean they would no longer be in the EU.

Sheldons Brain · 23-03-2014 1:51am

Akin to a Dublin or London referendum to leave their respective nations.

Not the same at all. Dublin and London have power and have accrued wealth to themselves. Venice (and other northern parts) make the money and see it sent to Rome.

Victor wrote: »

Of course, independence would mean they would no longer be in the EU.

No problem. Just put a toll on the traffic passing by.

What happens Trentino and Alto Adige when Venice secedes? Will the Südtirol rejoin the mother Reich?

crockholm · 23-03-2014 10:36am

Victor wrote: »

Of course, independence would mean they would no longer be in the EU.

Surely,elected heads from outside the council can still speak at such an event,similar to POTUS or other non-EU diplomats?

GaelMise · 23-03-2014 4:05pm

Victor wrote: »

Of course, independence would mean they would no longer be in the EU.

Quite unlikely, the people of venice are EU citizens and it would be quite illigal for the EU to take any move to try take that from them unilaterally.

MRnotlob606 · 23-03-2014 4:19pm

What Session in Italy? Can't wait gonna get plastered

Iwasfrozen · 23-03-2014 4:44pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Quite unlikely, the people of venice are EU citizens and it would be quite illigal for the EU to take any move to try take that from them unilaterally.

The people of Venice are EU citizens by virtue of being Italian citizens. If Venice secedes from Italy the new independent Venice will not be an EU nation and will have to reapply. Same situation with Scotland.

Scofflaw · 23-03-2014 8:28pm

Ayup - they voted Yes:

Venetians and people in the surrounding region have voted to split from Italy and establish an independent state in an unofficial referendum.

The online poll was organised by local activists and parties, who want to establish a sovereign state called the Republic of Veneto, which would encompass the five million inhabitants of the region.

More than two million residents – 73 per cent of all those eligible to take part - participated in the week-long survey, the Daily Mail reported.

The poll was not recognised by the Rome government, which campaigners say receives around €71 billion (£59 billion) each year in tax from Venice - some €21 billion (£18 billion) less than the city gets back in investment and services.

A 10-strong committee was also appointed in the ballot and immediately declared independence from Italy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/venice-seeks-independence-from-italy-in-unofficial-poll-9209991.html

89% in favour, according to RT - almost Crimean!

Over 89 percent of residents in Italy's Veneto region have voted in an unofficial referendum in favor of independence from the rest of the country as Venetians seek to restore the glory of the old days by creating a state of their own.

Over two million residents of Veneto – the region of Italy surrounding Venice – took part in the so-called 'Veneto independence referendum' that lasted from Sunday to Friday. The survey, conducted online and backed by the region’s independence parties, has no legal power but aims to gather support for a bill calling for a referendum.

The poll also asked residents if they want the region to keep the euro and remain part of the European Union and NATO if it declares its independence. More than 55 percent of voters said they would prefer an independent Veneto to remain part of the EU, and over 51 percent said they want to remain in the eurozone. Over 64.5 percent said they want Veneto to be part of NATO.

The results of the vote were announced Friday in the city of Treviso, where hundreds of pro-independence activists gathered for a demonstration, waving the flags of the old Venetian Republic.

Earlier, the "yes" campaign – organized by pro-independence activists – said that if the majority voted for separation of the region, Veneto would issue a 'Declaration of Veneto Sovereignty' and stop all tax transfers to the central government in Rome.

Though opponents described the poll on Twitter as "total madness," supporters believe in a new, independent Republic of Veneto. They say the region would be inspired by the ancient Republic of Venice – a rich economic, cultural, and trading state known as “La Serenissima,” or “The Most Serene Republic of Venice.” The republic lost its independence when Napoleon conquered Venice in 1797.

Earlier in March, leaders of the independence movement said they were not going to wait for Rome’s approval, adding that they would begin the separation process if the population voted in favor of the move.

Veneto's President Luca Zaia – who supports the independence movement – said the region is tired of the lack of respect from Rome.

http://rt.com/news/venice-votes-independence-italy-585/

So now we see what happens next...

cordially,
Scofflaw

GaelMise · 23-03-2014 10:51pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The people of Venice are EU citizens by virtue of being Italian citizens. If Venice secedes from Italy the new independent Venice will not be an EU nation and will have to reapply. Same situation with Scotland.

Either the Italian Government refuses to recognise the new state in which case it cannot be excluded from the EU by virtue of being part of Italy, or the Italian government eventually does recognise the new State in which case it would be unlaw full for the EU to intervene as the EU cannot intervene in the affairs of memberstates in areas in which competence has not been granted to it.

The people of that part of Italy are EU citizens and as such have representation in the EU Parliment, which is the sovereign body of the EU according to Treaty, the EU Parliament would have to vote to exclude those representatives from the parliment, the European Commission doesn’t have the power to order their exclusion. But calling such a vote would fall foul of the EU prohibition on interference in the internal democratic and constitutional affairs of an EU member state.

There is simply no legal mechanism for the EU to throw out a region of the EU on the basis of that region becoming a new independant state.

Iwasfrozen · 23-03-2014 11:02pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Either the Italian Government refuses to recognise the new state in which case it cannot be excluded from the EU by virtue of being part of Italy, or the Italian government eventually does recognise the new State in which case it would be unlaw full for the EU to intervene as the EU cannot intervene in the affairs of memberstates in areas in which competence has not been granted to it.

The people of that part of Italy are EU citizens and as such have representation in the EU Parliment, which is the sovereign body of the EU according to Treaty, the EU Parliament would have to vote to exclude those representatives from the parliment, the European Commission doesn’t have the power to order their exclusion. But calling such a vote would fall foul of the EU prohibition on interference in the internal democratic and constitutional affairs of an EU member state.

There is simply no legal mechanism for the EU to throw out a region of the EU on the basis of that region becoming a new independant state.

Jose Barroso would disagree and I would take the word of the man whose job it is to enforce EU treaties over the word of a randomer on the internet.

Venice holding referendum on secession from Italy

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