Question: confiscated car

bear1 wrote: »

Regarding the Polish example, I have an Irish registered car here at the moment. I have been told that the car can stay here for a 12 consecutive months as long as the car is road legal in Ireland.
I believe this to be an EU wide law so the law in Ireland applies everywhere else in the EU.

Depending on your circumstances this is almost certainly NOT true.

If you have moved "pemanently" (i.e. taken up residence, job etc), you need to conform to local laws and be locally registrated, insured, taxed etc. You also usually have to do this pretty much immediately after you arrive or shortyly thereafter.

If you are a temporary "visitor" (i.e. you are a tourist of there for let's say a few months work on a short project), you probably don't have to re-register etc but do check - with officials or a solicitor - what the local laws are.

Do not make assumptions - if you are involved in a traffic accident, you could end up in really hot water over your lack of non-local paperwork if you are required to have re-registered etc

CiniO wrote: »

So you weren't told exactly true.
While possibly there is some law limiting time a foreign car can be used in Poland (I can't find it), but it doesn't matter, as in reality it's not enforced. No one is going to bother you even if you use your Irish registered car in Poland for 5 years.

In relation to requirement for the car to be "road legal in Ireland" it's again not exactly true.
For the car to be road legal in Ireland you need to have valid insurance, tax and NCT, and display all three discs.
If you are using Irish registered car in Poland, you must have valid insurance and NCT. You must carry VRC, and Insurance cert with you at all times.
There is no need to have valid Irish tax.
And there is no need to display any discs on the window.
It's probably a good idea to have NCT cert with you, but there is no law requiring you to do it.

So the main difference is tax really. Irish registered cars used in Poland doesn't need to have valid tax.

The freedom to bring a car registered in one EU country into another EU country is contingent on it being 100% compliant with its home country regulations and while the Polish Police might not be bothered enforcing the displaying of discs in the windscreen, it most certainly is a requirement and they could choose to enforce it at any time, or maybe if they just didn't like you.
You have to be exceptionally unlucky to get done for no NCT in this country and a little bit unlucky to get done for no Motor Tax, but it does happen and when it does, it really is tough ****. Similarly it would seem that the chances of being done for no Motor Tax on an Irish registered car in Poland are very slim but again if you are done for it, it's tough ****. By all means tell them the Polish Police really don't care and let them make up their own mind whether to take a chance, but I wouldn't go telling people they don't need it.

alias no.9 wrote: »

The freedom to bring a car registered in one EU country into another EU country is contingent on it being 100% compliant with its home country regulations

That's not true.
Can you point any law stating that?

Most countries operate on basis of Vienna convention on road traffic from 1968 when it comes to international traffic.
This convention puts some requirements on foreign cars (f.e. requirement for the car to fulfill all technical requirements from country of registration), but it certainly doesn't put requirement for vehicle to be 100% compliant with all home country regulations.
Irish motortax is perfect example. It's required by Irish Finance act, and has absolutely nothing to do with international traffic.
Irish car can be driven without TAX in most countries around the world (obviously except Ireland, and possibly UK).

and while the Polish Police might not be bothered enforcing the displaying of discs in the windscreen, it most certainly is a requirement

No it isn't.
If you don't believe me, you are free to point out a piece of Polish law putting up such an requirement.

and they could choose to enforce it at any time, or maybe if they just didn't like you.

They can't enforce law which doesn't exist.

You have to be exceptionally unlucky to get done for no NCT in this country and a little bit unlucky to get done for no Motor Tax, but it does happen and when it does, it really is tough ****.

In Ireland - certainly.

Similarly it would seem that the chances of being done for no Motor Tax on an Irish registered car in Poland are very slim

They are not slim. They are non-existant, as it's not illegal to drive untaxed Irish car in Poland.

but again if you are done for it, it's tough ****. By all means tell them the Polish Police really don't care and let them make up their own mind whether to take a chance, but I wouldn't go telling people they don't need it.

I can tell that, because they really don't need it.
That's the law.

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

nope read the entire chat,read the first few post and I seen enough after that,insured for irish roads???there is a difference in insurance depending on the country,i.e the maximum payout in this country AFAIK is 30 million euro,are you telling my that the insurance company back in your home land has that as well???I've heard plenty of negative stories of dealings with insurance companies from other E.U member states and the max the pay out is no where near the irish amount,do you think that what your father done was right/fair????

I think current minimum EU insurance payout sum is 5 million on personal claims, and 1 million on property claims. That's EU minimum and every car third party insurance policy in EU must provide at least this.
And that's what most countries from Easter Europe go with. Very seldom they offer more.

AFAIK my Irish car insurance, offers 30 million on property claims, and unlimited amount on personal claims.

This doesn't really matter though, as if bigger claim arises, it will be covered from insurance fund, and recovered from person who caused an accident.

angeliukas92 wrote: »

well if you didn't read all the chat trough . i said tht he came with this car to ireland he drove it for a whie and he bought an irish car it was all taxes, nct up to date and insured. so he only took the other car just for a spin but she was insured no matter if he drove it or not, and nct in the home country. It doesn't mean he used her for daily use every day for 8 years !

Pretty sure the equivalent to the N.C.T in Lithuania counts for sweet fcuk all over here. It was driven here for 8 years without paying VRT or tax there is no defending that no matter what way you try spin it.

If the car was here 8 years and only took for short spins, how was there a Lithuanian test on it?

angeliukas92 wrote: »

I gave you the daily facts that are in ireland ..

No you didn't, can you provide a source for the 70% of motorists don't use a light?
I can't see why you are getting snotty at some posters reactionn
Your father got a 200e fine for keeping a car illegally in the country for 8 years.
You bang on about Ireland's stupid laws but not one country has perfect laws.
Here's an example seeing as you are Lithuanian.
About a year or so ago we were driving near Kaunas on our way to Riga, speed signs seem to be non existent in EE (at least not as frequently shown as here) and we were caught doing 71 in a 60kph on a dual-carriageway.
We had to pay a 100e fine! for 11kph over the limit on a feckin dual carriageway.
That is your countries law when it comes to speed, quite excessive also from the stories I've heard from people driving there.
So a fine for speeding in Lithuania is 50% of the fine from driving a foreign car illegally in Ireland for 8 years!

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

I agree with everything you have said up until this point. Your effectively saying here that the car doesn't need to be taxed in its domestic market.

Yes, that's what I'm saying (hence example was Irish registered car without valid motortax used in Poland). And that's 100% legal.

Im afraid it does. Most countries require completion of a safety inspection, before tax will be granted. Makes it a bit hard to see how a car which has not returned home in 8 years, could have a valid NCT equivalent and thus tax.

Hmm.
Ireland is best example, where you can NCT the car which is not taxed, and you can tax the car which is not NCTed.
But that doesn't really matter.
You are forgetting, that most countries in EU don't charge motortax in a way Ireland does.
OP's case where car being 8 years in Ireland had valid roadworthiness test from Lithuania, was surely not right. I assume cert must have been acquired illegally, (f.e. tester in Lithuania stamped it without ever seeing the car). There's no other way if car was all the time in Ireland.



But now, returning to usage of Irish untaxed vehicle abroad.
Law you linked, seem to confirm it's not required.

From EU directive you linked:

1. Member States shall, under the conditions laid down below, exempt temporary imports from another Member State of motor-driven road vehicles (including their trailers), caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles, tricycles and saddle-horses from: - turnover tax, excise duties and any other consumption tax,
- the taxes listed in the Annex hereto.

By turnover tax, excise, duties, and any other consumption tax - they mean something like out VRT, VAT, etc..
Irish motortax is not included in it.
That's why it's listed separately in mentioned annex:

IRELAND
- Motor vehicle excise duties (Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 as amended, and Section 94, Finance Act 1973 as amended)

So now what you quoted and insinuate it's prohibiting vehicle without valid roadtax/motortax to travel abroad, doesn't really mean that

4. (a) The scope of this Directive shall not extend to the temporary importation of private vehicles, caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles and tricycles for private use which have not been acquired or imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of a Member State and/or which are subject by reason of their exportation to any exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

This relates to taxes like VAT or VRT which are payable at time of registration.
Some countries (Ireland including) can refund those taxes when vehicle in exported. So above would mean, that if VRT refund was issued on Irish regirstered car, that vehicle couldn't be used abroad. (which is logical - car deregistered in Ireland can not be used abroad, as it's not registered in any country, even if it still has Irish number plates).

As pointed above, Irish motortax is separate thing, and it doesn't come under either turnover tax, excise duty or consumption tax. That's why it's listed separately.

Irish law which you quoted S.I. 60/1993 pretty much implements above EU directive.



And example I was giving that Irish registered car can be used 100% legally in Poland without valid Irish motortax is correct.
There is no law which would require that tax to be valid, when car is outside Ireland. At least not in Poland.

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

I have no idea about the domestic law in Poland, but the Irish law (as you stated) is there to implement the EU directive, I would assume the same directive being implemented in another EU country would require there to be equivalent laws.

The Irish law copies the EU law and states the



For Ireland, according to

- Motor vehicle excise duties (Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 as amended, and Section 94, Finance Act 1973 as amended)

This includes


So this means that if an Irish car is to be used in another EU state, its Irish motor tax must be up to date. (Motor tax is effectively a consumption tax, which is specified directly in the directive as a tax that must complied with for exemption to be valid)

I dont see how a foreign car with out of date tax could be described as being "in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market" of the foreign state.



Registration is separate to taxation.

A car cannot be taxed, without being registered.

That is why the law specifies "general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of a Member State" and not validly registered in another member state.

If the tax is up to date, it is definitely registered in another member state.

If its tax is not up to date, there is no way to know if it is even registered in another member state.

An Irish car with no Irish tax could definitely NOT be used legally in another EU member state such as Poland, as it would not be "in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force" in Ireland.

I undestand point you are making, but I think you are wrong.
You quoted only part of paragraph. Full one is as below:

4. (1) These Regulations shall apply only to a vehicle which has been acquired under the general conditions of taxation in force in the domestic market of a country and which is not the subject, on the grounds of exportation or departure from that country, of any exemption from or any refund of value-added tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

So the car must be acquired under general conditions of taxation. By that it means that all taxes in relation to registration a car must be paid. Not the annual motortax.
And secondly it says that is must not be subject of any tax exemption or refund, on the grounds of exportation.
That would mean, that car can not be deregistred and tax refunded.

Also as I mentioned in previous post, tax like motortax is no an VAT, neither excise duty, nor consumption tax.
For that reason it's listed separately in mentioned EU directive.

That's my understanding of this directive, but I might be wrong about this interpretation.

However there is one more thing which I'm 100% sure.

The EU directive says:

1. Member States may maintain and/or introduce more liberal arrangements than those provided for in this Directive.

By above, this directive only set's the maximum limitations EU states can implement. It doesn't set any minimum.
Poland never imprlemented this directive in form like Ireland did.
There is no requirement in Polish law for foreign car fulfill general conditions of taxation in force from country of registration.

As nearly all countries in EU signed Vienna convention on road traffic 1968 (including Poland), rules on foreign car are set by this convention mostly.

Foreign car must be registered in home country, must have valid VRC, must have valid insurance and valid test. And must fulfill all technical specifications from home country (f.e. in country of registration it's obligatory to have first aid kit, it must be inside when in Poland).

But there is nothing about taxes like Irish motortax in Polish law, therefore it's perfectly legal to drive Irish or UK car without valid motortax / roadtax.

I'd say it works similarly in most other EU states.
Probably only states that implemented above EU directive, are those listed in an annex at the bottom (those who charge motortax / roadtax).