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MilanPan!c wrote: »All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.
Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.
Yes, but in Ireland we appear to do as much as possible to make sure the known, convicted or charged ones are allowed roam the country.
It is gone past a joke when the 6 pieces of shyte that terrorised that family in their home in Tipperary are out on bail.
How many of them have previous convictions.
The only hope of getting rid of criminals in this country is to let them kill each other.
Perhaps we should be grateful that at least they are providing the service of culling themselves.
Nally had the damm right idea.
It is no use relying on our Gardaí who when they actually do catch people are further scuppered by a justice system that bends over backwards for the criminals and just adds to the pain of the victims.MilanPan!c wrote: »On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.
It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.
And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.
Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.
And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.
Even when we were flush with cash, we did nothing.
It is not just lack of cash, it is inaction and listening to muppets that continously excuse others bad behaviour and criminality.Zubeneschamali wrote: »They are robbers after cash, not hollywood movie psychopaths. Give them the cash: they'll be arrested soon enough.
And one would swear you were talking about some cat burglars from the movies.
I can list a few old people that lived on their own who were assualted, terrorised and in a couple of cases left to die a painful and lonely death.RichardAnd wrote: »You're missing the point I'm trying to make. What if you have no cash to give them?
As to your confidence that they will be arrested, there are two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it is just that; an assumption. Secondly, even if they were to be apprehended, they could mug, injure or even kill any number of people beforehand.
And you are forgetting even after they have been arrested, charged and brought before a court, they are released on bail or remand to carry on as normal.0 -
MilanPan!c wrote: »All the Garda stations in the world won't stop crime.
Criminals will always exist and always terrorise innocent people.
On top of that, the stations are being closed to help criminals, but to cut costs.
It you want to take on the people that think Ireland should spend more than it already is on cops, go ahead. If it works, get some more money for schools and hospitals while you're at it.
And yes, the criminal justice system is relatively lax here, but... Some of that has to do with prison overcrowding - more money, courts being underfunded - more money, police being undertrained - more money, etc., etc.
Unless you can solve the money issue there's no point pointing fingers.
And even with the money issues solved, some crime will always exist.
As the past few weeks have demonstrated, funding tends not to be an issue where certain projects are concerned. Millions and billions are readily available as civil servants devise ever more spurious reasons to extract more taxes from Seán Citizen.
Latest figures suggest it costs c.€100,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner in prison, yet an OAP is expected to feed, clothe and heat themselves for one tenth of that, and that's before rent, medicines and other necessities are considered. Now it is proposed to tax them again for the water they need to survive.
Why are criminals pampered, why do their cells have to be heated night and day, indeed why do the need to be heated at all, why do they need to have a choice of menu at each meal? I would have no qualms in sending the likes of Gilligan, Meehan and Co. and all habitual criminals out, in whatever weather to build flood defences, dig ditches, shovel ****, whatever, so long as they were making a contribution to society. Instead they are left to sit all day long in their cells, no doubt organising their criminal empires for the next job. Anybody who has spent all day mixing concrete by hand on a building site will tell you, it's a good way to focus mind and body. Slash the budget for the prisons and use the money to recruit more Gardaí, leave these scum to stew in their own juice.
I watched a documentary recently where a volunteer was recreating the daily life of a prisoner in nineteenth century England. His daily existence comprised moving a pile of earth from one place to another, without benefit of a wheelbarrow, he was given twelve hours to do it and was not given an evening meal of bread and soup, if he did not complete it, the next day he moved it back. This would continue for the duration of his sentence. As the actor said, " by the end of the day, I wasn't likely to be a problem to
anybody"
Before the bleeding hearts jump in with, Dickensian or rabbit on about rehabilitation, ask yourself, how much rehabilitation will it take to restore quality of life to Veronica Gueirin or Jerry Mc Cabe, or even that family in Tipperary who I mentioned in an earlier post.0 -
(1) You and your community and the rest of the country do not pay enough taxes to provide the service you want.
(2) 50 years of bad planning have led to too many communities too small to make provision of essential services economical.
This means that if you have 100 people paying tax in a village, how much tax do you think is necessary to provide a 24/7 garda service (about 3.5 full-time gardai), a primary school (4 teachers plus extras), a medical service, roads to the isolated village, electricity broadband etc. Well, I can tell you, a lot more tax than the 100 people pay at the moment.
To start with, there a lot more than 100 people in our village and it's combined Faithlegg but yes, there is a tax issue. I pay €760 a year car tax on a car that I bought with taxed income, €260 a year bin charges, €350 a year property tax, tax on my income and excise duty and VAT on the fuel that I buy to drive on cratered roads. Almost every thing I buy to sustain my family is subjected to VAT, and there are the endless stealth taxes (like Irish Water) that have yet to be revealed. I pay for private health insurance that is subject to a government levy amounting to €350 a year, and I have small savings that are subjected to DIRT tax of 41%.
I don't know what money the government takes from the average Irish family a year (I assume here a family of two people with two children, possibly both parents working), but I would hazard a guess that it is more that 60% of income. I don't know because in this democracy the real figures are hidden in a quagmire of political subterfuge and stealth taxes.
Ireland is still predominantly a rural community (and how that has changed over the last thirty years is irrelevant). It is the absolute responsibility of government to protect the peace of its people, and in that in my view successive governments have failed.
Now here is the rant if you insist: The traditional political parties have failed the people in order to further their party security. They have failed the people in order to claim the outlandish salaries, pensions, expenses (yes, I know this has been said before many times), but in spite of the assurances from our Dear Leader nothing has changed.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »They aren't getting any money on that raid, so.
What if they don't believe you and decide to beat seven kinds of **** out of you and your family instead?0 -
Just to be clear – you’re attempting to link a robbery in a small Irish town with the bailout?This obsession with saving money to pay off foreign gamblers whatever the consequences for the people has got to stop.
So you want a Garda presence, country-wide, 24 hours-a-day, 7 days-a-week, 365-days-a-year? How many more Gards would be required for such a colossal surveillance operation and how much would it all cost?This, I suspect, is a situation particular to Ireland -- it is not so much a case of the level of violent crime and robbery, but more that the robbers are confident that they will not be caught and can go about their actions with impunity.
You know this how?Each of the shops they raided were, with the exception of ours, post offices (ours was closed by An Post three years ago). Yet it seems not to have occurred to the Gardai to warn the others in the area after the first one was raided.0 -
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So, if tomorrow, it suddenly became relatively easy to acquire firearms in Ireland, who do you suppose is going to take full advantage of that situation? Potential/convicted violent criminals, or their potential victims?RichardAnd wrote: »The point I'm making is that prohibiting guns does not prevent violence. Scumbags seem to have no problems procuring them, so their being illegal seems only to remove them from the hands of their victims...0 -
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We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?Before the bleeding hearts jump in with, Dickensian or rabbit on about rehabilitation, ask yourself, how much rehabilitation will it take to restore quality of life to Veronica Gueirin or Jerry Mc Cabe, or even that family in Tipperary who I mentioned in an earlier post.
So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?Latest figures suggest it costs c.€100,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner in prison, yet an OAP is expected to feed, clothe and heat themselves for one tenth of that...0 -
I really doubt that “more prisons please” was a common request heard by politicians on the doorsteps of Ireland during the boom years.
They were trying to build a new prison, but it turned into another scratch my back where someone connected to politicans did ok at the taxpayers expense.
How much was spent and yet we still probably have cows grazing in the fields ?Zubeneschamali wrote: »I'd be inclined to tell the guards about that.
Why don't you tell that to the likes of poor old Eddie Fitzmaurice the 83 year old who was left to die in his home in May 1998.
Nobody has ever been brought to justice for that and even if they are, there will probably be someone making excuses for them.
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=9217We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?
So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?
Getting old is not a choice, becoming a criminal and continuing to be one is.
Breaking into someone homes, beating the shyte out of them, threatening their kids is a fooking choice.
Where is the rehabilitation for the victims.
Or is trundle off to the graveyard your form of rehabilitation for some poor families. :mad:0 -
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We should give up on the idea of rehabilitation completely because some criminals are beyond it?
So, you’ve no time for people getting all “bleeding heart” about the treatment of prisoners, but it’s ok for you to do so with regard to the poor, wee, vulnerable old people?
Got it in one.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »I'd be inclined to tell the guards about that.
So would I, providing I wasn't in a coma of course. I'd much rather it didn't come to that though and these people could be persuaded not to do it in the first place. It would appear the penal system is not persuasive enough for many of them so another means might have to be found.0 -
Either pay more tax to cover the cost of state services or live closer to each other to make said services less costly.
Paddy does not like doing either though.
Also... Respecting the I pax 'x-tax' issue, Ireland is around OECD average for taxes collected as % of national income.
If we want a bigger state, either the state gets cheaper or we pay more.0 -
Pensioners are well looked after in Ireland, so I’ve no idea why this was brought into the discussion. Whether people like it or not, running a prison is an expensive gig and if people want tougher sentencing, it’s going to cost them.Getting old is not a choice, becoming a criminal and continuing to be one is.0 -
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oscarBravo wrote: »Correct. Hence the argument for rehabilitation.
On the other hand it could be an argument for a tougher prison regime.0 -
No, it isn't. You are proposing a Victorian prison system, on the grounds that the worst criminals don't deserve to have basic needs met.That's a ridiculous statement.
There are very good reasons why civilized societies don't treat convicted criminals the same way the were treated one hundred years ago. I mean, it's not like violent crime wasn't an issue for the Victorians.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14595
Sometimes the law is on your side when you tackle these "people"
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/man-cleared-grievous-bodily-harm-thieves0 -
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Pensioners are well looked after in Ireland, so I’ve no idea why this was brought into the discussion. Whether people like it or not, running a prison is an expensive gig and if people want tougher sentencing, it’s going to cost them.
I really don't know where you get this impression and it was brought into the discussion by way of comparison.
Prisons are expensive to run because they're run on the lines of an establishment for paying guests rather than a place of punishment for criminals.
All this rubbish about rehabilitation is just that, rubbish, psychologists and psychiatrists justifying their own existence to the PC and bleeding heart brigade. The very least that should be expected is that criminals should be made to pay in some material way for their crimes, rather than to spend their time in comparative ease while their victims can be scarred for life both mentally and physically, deprivation of liberty is not sufficient in the case of habitual criminals.0 -
As the past few weeks have demonstrated, funding tends not to be an issue where certain projects are concerned. Millions and billions are readily available as civil servants devise ever more spurious reasons to extract more taxes from Seán Citizen.
Latest figures suggest it costs c.€100,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner in prison, yet an OAP is expected to feed, clothe and heat themselves for one tenth of that, and that's before rent, medicines and other necessities are considered. Now it is proposed to tax them again for the water they need to survive.
Why are criminals pampered, why do their cells have to be heated night and day, indeed why do the need to be heated at all, why do they need to have a choice of menu at each meal? I would have no qualms in sending the likes of Gilligan, Meehan and Co. and all habitual criminals out, in whatever weather to build flood defences, dig ditches, shovel ****, whatever, so long as they were making a contribution to society. Instead they are left to sit all day long in their cells, no doubt organising their criminal empires for the next job. Anybody who has spent all day mixing concrete by hand on a building site will tell you, it's a good way to focus mind and body. Slash the budget for the prisons and use the money to recruit more Gardaí, leave these scum to stew in their own juice.
I watched a documentary recently where a volunteer was recreating the daily life of a prisoner in nineteenth century England. His daily existence comprised moving a pile of earth from one place to another, without benefit of a wheelbarrow, he was given twelve hours to do it and was not given an evening meal of bread and soup, if he did not complete it, the next day he moved it back. This would continue for the duration of his sentence. As the actor said, " by the end of the day, I wasn't likely to be a problem to
anybody"
Before the bleeding hearts jump in with, Dickensian or rabbit on about rehabilitation, ask yourself, how much rehabilitation will it take to restore quality of life to Veronica Gueirin or Jerry Mc Cabe, or even that family in Tipperary who I mentioned in an earlier post.
If we only had a way to change which politicians represented us......0 -
I really don't know where you get this impression and it was brought into the discussion by way of comparison.
Prisons are expensive to run because they're run on the lines of an establishment for paying guests rather than a place of punishment for criminals.
All this rubbish about rehabilitation is just that, rubbish, psychologists and psychiatrists justifying their own existence to the PC and bleeding heart brigade. The very least that should be expected is that criminals should be made to pay in some material way for their crimes, rather than to spend their time in comparative ease while their victims can be scarred for life both mentally and physically, deprivation of liberty is not sufficient in the case of habitual criminals.
What is your solution then Maxi (seeing as incarceration is not enough).0 -
Well, that’ll be why the Irish prison system was heavily criticised in a recent Council of Europe report.Prisons are expensive to run because they're run on the lines of an establishment for paying guests rather than a place of punishment for criminals.
http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/irl/2011-03-inf-eng.htm
So rehabilitation is impossible, is it? There are absolutely no examples of reformed criminals?All this rubbish about rehabilitation is just that, rubbish, psychologists and psychiatrists justifying their own existence to the PC and bleeding heart brigade.
How about by reforming them? That way they rejoin society and pay taxes....criminals should be made to pay in some material way for their crimes...0 -
It could also be an argument for burning them at the stake. Before you say that there's an argument for something, you need to determine whether or not it's a good argument for it, and whether there are better arguments for the alternatives.On the other hand it could be an argument for a tougher prison regime.
If what you want is to derive satisfaction from the suffering of others, fair enough; but if you want to reduce the likelihood of a prisoner re-offending, then you need to get over your ill-founded disdain for the people who actually study these issues, and realise that rehabilitation works much, much better than punishment.All this rubbish about rehabilitation is just that, rubbish, psychologists and psychiatrists justifying their own existence to the PC and bleeding heart brigade. The very least that should be expected is that criminals should be made to pay in some material way for their crimes, rather than to spend their time in comparative ease while their victims can be scarred for life both mentally and physically, deprivation of liberty is not sufficient in the case of habitual criminals.
I grant you, rehabilitation doesn't satisfy the visceral desire some people have to see others suffer, but I'm not convinced that's a good argument against it.0 -
Just to be clear – you’re attempting to link a robbery in a small Irish town with the bailout?
So you want a Garda presence, country-wide, 24 hours-a-day, 7 days-a-week, 365-days-a-year? How many more Gards would be required for such a colossal surveillance operation and how much would it all cost?
You know this how?
I am not sure whether you are asking your first question as a moderator or simply as a commentator. Of course I don't link the bailout directly to the robbery of my local shop since in spite of what you imply I am not a complete idiot. However, the bailout landed the people with an unsustainable debt that was not theirs in the first place, and the government of the day and its predecessors saw it fit to obey the instructions of an unelected bureaucrat (Trichet) and apply a level of austerity that required massive cuts in public services, including public protection. This when the Irish times has now published an article quoting the Bundesbank as saying that they were in favour of the Irish bank bond holders bearing at least some of the cost of their gambling. The Bundesbank that is being blamed for our problems? Irrespective of this the current government has toed the ECB line slavishly to the extent that "savings must be made" as long as they are not in the incomes of the great and the good. So yes. There is a tenuous connection between the raid on my local village shop and the bail out.
Again, because I don't consider myself to be a complete idiot, I don't expect there to be three or more Gardai for every community of 100 people, and to suggest that was my demand is fatuous. What I cannot accept is that it is possible for a gang of two to raid three shops in an area with impunity, to traumatise a small lady behind the counter to the extent that she will possibly never work in a shop again. A small lady that is my friend. What I cannot accept is that if the miscreants are eventually caught (unlikely) they will be given probation, suspended sentences, time off for good behavior, bail, and even allowed time off to be with their families over Christmas because they had a deprived upbringing (mother never gave me a teddy bear). God give me strength!
I repeat. This has got to stop Mr. Shatter. It is your hands, not those of your predecessors in government however much you might like to blame them and however much they are blameworthy. I, and I suspect many others, want an end to the soundbites and would prefer to see some action that gives our property, our elderly, our families and our shopkeepers the protection that they are entitled to expect and which you have denied them.0 -
No, it isn't. You are proposing a Victorian prison system, on the grounds that the worst criminals don't deserve to have basic needs met.
There are very good reasons why civilized societies don't treat convicted criminals the same way the were treated one hundred years ago. I mean, it's not like violent crime wasn't an issue for the Victorians.
I'm not proposing they shouldn't have their basic needs met, I never said that. I'm saying that in comparison to Victorian times they are pampered and I don't accept that criminals should be pampered. To whose benefit is this? Are criminals less likely to re-offend because they spent one quarter of an already, IMO, inadequate sentence, in a space equivalent to the space allocated to a patient in a public ward and probably with better facilities? As I've said before, prison is a place you shouldn't ever want to return to and not just because the steak was a bit tough.0 -
I don’t moderate this forum.I am not sure whether you are asking your first question as a moderator or simply as a commentator.
It’s an incredibly tenuous connection, given that the only way to prevent crime completely would be to blanket the country with law enforcers, which is obviously completely impractical. There will always be areas with a lower Garda presence than others.There is a tenuous connection between the raid on my local village shop and the bail out.
There is a police station less than one kilometre from where I live, but it didn’t stop my flat being broken into around this time last year. A neighbour witnessed someone trying to gain access and called the police – I’m told they were on the scene in less than five minutes. But, the perpetrators were still not caught and made away with plenty of my stuff.
Likewise, I don’t like the fact that the guys who raided my flat likely raided others before mine and have likely raided others since. However, I’m not entirely sure what you suggest be done about it? Catching a burglar once they’ve left a scene is an incredibly difficult task, but, I'm fairly confident they'll be caught for something eventually.Again, because I don't consider myself to be a complete idiot, I don't expect there to be three or more Gardai for every community of 100 people, and to suggest that was my demand is fatuous. What I cannot accept is that it is possible for a gang of two to raid three shops in an area with impunity...
Now you’re just making assumptions.What I cannot accept is that if the miscreants are eventually caught (unlikely) they will be given probation, suspended sentences, time off for good behavior, bail, and even allowed time off to be with their families over Christmas because they had a deprived upbringing (mother never gave me a teddy bear).
You make it sound like the minister is doing his utmost to flood the country with hardened criminals. You really think he wouldn’t build several new prisons and deploy thousands of extra Gardaí if he could?I repeat. This has got to stop Mr. Shatter. It is your hands, not those of your predecessors in government however much you might like to blame them and however much they are blameworthy. I, and I suspect many others, want an end to the soundbites and would prefer to see some action that gives our property, our elderly, our families and our shopkeepers the protection that they are entitled to expect and which you have denied them.0 -
I don't accept that they are pampered. Ever been inside a typical prison cell in Ireland - it ain't pleasant.I'm saying that in comparison to Victorian times they are pampered and I don't accept that criminals should be pampered.
It’s obvious you are completely unaware of the conditions in Irish prisons and I don’t really see the point in continuing the discussion until you at least try and inform yourself of the facts. For example, many Irish prisons have serious drug problems, so guys who committed relatively minor crimes go in to serve their short sentence and they emerge as junkies – to whose benefit is that?To whose benefit is this? Are criminals less likely to re-offend because they spent one quarter of an already, IMO, inadequate sentence, in a space equivalent to the space allocated to a patient in a public ward and probably with better facilities?0 -
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Prisons aren't expensive because of "pampering". They are expensive because they are run by the public service, with exorbitant salaries and all the other associated bonuses and pensions that go with this.
As for the original point, we can't afford a guard on every street. What we can do is make sure that proper sentences are handed out, and that criminals with multiple convictions are put away for a long time. So, raise it with politicians the next time you see them, and don't go off on some vague rant about bondholders.0
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