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Is it possible to be a Sinn Fein member/supoporter and not support IRA actions?

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  • 10-12-2013 5:01pm
    #1
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭


    As time progresses and SF strive to be accepted by the voting public, North and South, as a 'normal' political party, I got to wondering if its possible that we will ever hear any of their members/TDs etc actually condemn the actions of the IRA?

    Surely a time will come when someone who may want to get into politics will agree with their policies and beliefs, but find the military actions of the past abhorrent? Will that someone ever be able to speak about IRA actions without adding in the usual "... yes, but there was murder on all sides and by State forces etc etc".


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    #2
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    It wasn't so long ago that Snodaigh supporters were jailed when they were found with election posters for Snodaigh, CS gas, and balaclavas.

    Or Martin ferris playing taxi to the Mc Cabe killers as soon as they were released.

    Or senior IRA figures saying that Gerry ordered Mc Convilles death.

    Sinn Fein voters know what they are getting.

    This party is not for me


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    #3
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    NIMAN wrote: »
    As time progresses and SF strive to be accepted by the voting public, North and South, as a 'normal' political party, I got to wondering if its possible that we will ever hear any of their members/TDs etc actually condemn the actions of the IRA?

    Surely a time will come when someone who may want to get into politics will agree with their policies and beliefs, but find the military actions of the past abhorrent? Will that someone ever be able to speak about IRA actions without adding in the usual "... yes, but there was murder on all sides and by State forces etc etc".

    It'd be nice if the IRA hadnt existed and there never had been any need for them - but there was and they did so I dont think it's possible to separate the past as far as SF and the IRA go. Give it 40 years maybe. TBH though, its a bit like a british person saying they couldnt vote for labour because of the british army.


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    #4
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    NIMAN wrote: »
    As time progresses and SF strive to be accepted by the voting public, North and South, as a 'normal' political party, I got to wondering if its possible that we will ever hear any of their members/TDs etc actually condemn the actions of the IRA?

    .

    Can't see how. Can't imagine why anyone would have joined the party if that was their view.


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    #5
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Nodin wrote: »
    Can't see how. Can't imagine why anyone would have joined the party if that was their view.

    But in many years to come, will the armed struggle as its called, even be attached to SF any more?

    If they are a mainstream political party then it will just be something in their distant past. As I say, what is someone liked their policies and ideals, but couldn't find themselves saying they agreed with IRA actions in the latter half of the 20th century?

    Are they mutally exclusive?


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    #6
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Is it possible to be a Sinn Fein member/supoporter and not support IRA actions?
    Yes, they're called SDLP.


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    #7
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But in many years to come, will the armed struggle as its called, even be attached to SF any more?

    If they are a mainstream political party then it will just be something in their distant past. As I say, what is someone liked their policies and ideals, but couldn't find themselves saying they agreed with IRA actions in the latter half of the 20th century?

    Are they mutally exclusive?


    I'm unable to speculate on the far flung future in any meaningful way, tbh. Maybe yes, maybe no.


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    #8
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But in many years to come, will the armed struggle as its called, even be attached to SF any more?

    If they are a mainstream political party then it will just be something in their distant past. As I say, what is someone liked their policies and ideals, but couldn't find themselves saying they agreed with IRA actions in the latter half of the 20th century?

    Are they mutally exclusive?

    I've voted for a SF candidate in local elections (second pref anyway!) - and I'm certainly not a supporter of the IRA - even though this particular candidate had previously been an IRA member. We're in a post-IRA armed campaign reality now - a few bank robberies and the odd pub murder aside, so any objections to SF should be on the basis of their current platform. God knows there's enough to cause concern there.


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    #9
    IrishProd
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭IrishProd


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I got to wondering if its possible that we will ever hear any of their members/TDs etc actually condemn the actions of the IRA?

    Not "if, when and ever", they have done so in the past and currently. I know people who are active members and have denounced acts that were done in the name of the republicanism that contradict republicanism. Kingsmill for example, was widely and heavily condemned by Sinn Féin.


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    #10
    CueCard7
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 256 ✭✭CueCard7


    Yes you can. The IRA doesn't exist anymore.

    How can you support something that doesn't exist.

    It's like saying that all Fine Gael supporters support the actions of the Free State army during the civil war.

    I.e the executions/ court Marshalls ect.


    A stupid hypothesis.

    I think most of the hate for Sinn Fein stems from the fact they are a northern party with left wing/confused policies.

    But to say every Sinn Fein supporter is an IRA supporter is stupid.


    How can I support something that does not exist?


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    #11
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    IrishProd wrote: »
    Not "if, when and ever", they have done so in the past and currently. I know people who are active members and have denounced acts that were done in the name of the republicanism that contradict republicanism. Kingsmill for example, was widely and heavily condemned by Sinn Féin.


    That's an action though. I presume he means the whole campaign.


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    #12
    CiDeRmAn
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,565 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    I think its the reframing of terrorism as a legitimate conflict that galls me most, and that extremely minority view still pervades Sinn Fein commentary on the period.
    With this behaviour they make every atrocity the IRA committed an unfortunate event in war.
    But it wasn't a war, it was a litany of illegal acts by an illegal paramilitary group with no mandate.
    And while the IRA doesn't exist anymore, apparently, Sinn Feins rehabilitation of legacy of horror continues, ahead of the 2016 commemorations, and so as a shower of manipulators and liars I think it would be unrealistic to expect any Shinner true believers to abandon their allegiance to the IRA.


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    #13
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    CueCard7 wrote: »
    How can I support something that does not exist?

    Because "they haven't gone away, you know"?


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    #14
    CueCard7
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 256 ✭✭CueCard7


    People who still support the armed conflict regard Sinn Fein as traitors,

    You have to admit that inherent nature of the Northern State was bound to spawn a conflict.

    I think the IRA unneccesarily prolonged that conflict, but conflict was inevitable.
    The IRA was spawned due to Loyalist violence.

    However Sinn Fein have now rejected violence.

    Fianna Fail in 1926 were allowed to get on with politics. Even though they were responsible for lots of innocent people being killed.


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    #15
    CueCard7
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 256 ✭✭CueCard7


    alastair wrote: »
    Because "they haven't gone away, you know"?


    They have the IRA was disbanded in 2004


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    #16
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    CueCard7 wrote: »
    They have the IRA was disbanded in 2004

    No it wasn't. It didn't even disarm until 2005, and never disbanded.


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    #17
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    alastair wrote: »
    No it wasn't. It didn't even disarm until 2005, and never disbanded.


    The army council had disbanded. If you've information to the contrary, you'd better get on to the international monitoring committee.


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    #18
    CueCard7
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 256 ✭✭CueCard7


    It doesn't exist anymore.
    It's twenty years now since the troubles ended.

    Look how far West Germany moved between 1945 and 1965.

    When Kennedy visited Berlin, he was nt met with tonnes of protesters complaining about his predecessors firebombing Dresden.

    As much as people seem loathe to admit, what happened in Northern Ireland is history.

    It's time the Independent moved on.
    They were quick to forget their role as Berties cheerleader during the boom


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    #19
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    raymon wrote: »
    It wasn't so long ago that Snodaigh supporters were jailed when they were found with election posters for Snodaigh, CS gas, and balaclavas.

    Or Martin ferris playing taxi to the Mc Cabe killers as soon as they were released.

    Or senior IRA figures saying that Gerry ordered Mc Convilles death.

    Sinn Fein voters know what they are getting.

    This party is not for me

    I imagine the majority of people who vote for Sinn Fein will be republicans, with a few disaffected F.F and lab. supporters thrown. I don't forsee any F.G blueshirts voting for republicans, when they have spent a lifetime supporting unionism. After all F.G's John Brutal said meeting Prince Charles was the best moment of his life. It's hard to know whether F.G created a unionist dominated state because of their love for them or brain washed themselves into loving them, to justify creating the despicable apartheid state of northern Ireland.


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    #20
    grainnewhale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    alastair wrote: »
    No it wasn't. It didn't even disarm until 2005, and never disbanded.

    Not sure they even disarmed. The truth is you can never be sure when it will be necessary to protect irish nationalists from british savages in the future.


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    #21
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Nodin wrote: »
    The army council had disbanded. If you've information to the contrary, you'd better get on to the international monitoring committee.

    No need - the IMC was clear enough on the fact that the Army Council was not disbanded at all, but rather was just allowed to fade away:
    Under PIRA’s own rules the Army Council was the body that directed its military campaign. Now that that campaign is well and truly over, the Army Council by deliberate choice is no longer operational or functional. This situation has been brought about by a conscious decision to let it fall into disuse rather than through any other mechanism.

    ...

    The mechanism which they have chosen to bring the armed conflict to a complete end has been the standing down of the structures which engaged in the armed campaign and the conscious decision to allow the Army Council to fall into disuse.


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    #22
    CiDeRmAn
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,565 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    grainnewhale wrote: »
    Not sure they even disarmed. The truth is you can never be sure when it will be necessary to protect irish nationalists from british savages in the future.

    This is sarcasm, yes?


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    #23
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    alastair wrote: »
    a few bank robberies and the odd pub murder aside

    So that's ok then...?


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    #24
    CueCard7
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 256 ✭✭CueCard7


    According to the Republican tradition.

    There is always a right to bear arms against British occupation,

    This struggle began with Wolfe Tone and the torch passed from him to Emmet and the Young Irelanders, to the Fenians and the IRB, Connolly, the Volunteers and the IRA. When the IRA became ineffective, this legitimacy passed to the Provisional IRA.

    There are now a number of horrible dissident groups claiming to have picked up this torch from the Provos.

    However one thing is certain. The provisional IRA is dead and gone. It is consigned to history. Gerry Adams is doing the same thing that Frank Aiken and Eamonn DeValera has done before him.

    By moving to consitititional politics he has firmly buried the gun. Both sides were responsible for atrocities during the troubles. But without Gerry Adams there would be no peace in the North today.

    He will be remembered in history very kindly.


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    #25
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    alastair wrote: »
    No need - the IMC was clear enough on the fact that the Army Council was not disbanded at all, but rather was just allowed to fade away:

    The mechanism which they have chosen to bring the armed conflict to a complete end has been the standing down of the structures which engaged in the armed campaign and the conscious decision to allow the Army Council to fall into disuse.


    They don't exist anymore. Other than semantics for the sake of it, I'd say that's fairly conclusive.


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    #26
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,601 ✭✭✭golfball37


    I abhorr most of what the IRA did but would give SF a vote without hesitation in the next GE. The three party patronage act have not served this state well and the attacks on SF nua over thier past reeks of fear from the establishment.Fear that their entitlements may be at risk.

    Anything that upsets the cosy cartel that have taken nest in this state is a good thing, at the momnent SF are the only poosibility of breaking up this monopoly scam. Until a new party comes along that challenges what goes on here, I will vote for them.


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    #27
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    CueCard7 wrote: »
    Yes you can. The IRA doesn't exist anymore.

    How can you support something that doesn't exist.

    It's like saying that all Fine Gael supporters support the actions of the Free State army during the civil war.

    I.e the executions/ court Marshalls ect.


    A stupid hypothesis.

    I think most of the hate for Sinn Fein stems from the fact they are a northern party with left wing/confused policies.

    But to say every Sinn Fein supporter is an IRA supporter is stupid.


    How can I support something that does not exist?

    I didn't think it was a stupid question to be honest. And my question was more about their elected representatives, not the public who vote for them.

    The question came to me when I was listening to one of Donegals SF TDs chatting on the radio last week, and they came out with the old line that you would hear so often by the Northern SF politicians about the conflict and how there were volunteers fighting what they considered a legitimate war etc etc.
    I thought that it was a shame even now people born and bred outside of NI have to still spew out the same old lines about the IRA. Are they told that they have to say this any time they are interviewed? And then this got me thinking about the SF politicians of the future, maybe some who are young people now. Will the legacy of the Troubles always follow the party and will they always have to answer the questions with a token reply, or will one day a SF candidate be able to say that they would never be able to say that the IRA campaign was justified?

    I personally hope that one day the link between the IRA and SF is broken, and the party is seen as its own identity. Maybe some of the media in this country will never let it go?


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    #28
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    I thought that it was a shame even now people born and bred outside of NI have to still spew out the same old lines about the IRA. Are they told that they have to say this any time they are interviewed?

    He probably said it because its the truth. It was a conflict and many did view it as a war. Including the SAS.
    will one day a SF candidate be able to say that they would never be able to say that the IRA campaign was justified?

    In the eyes of republicans the campaign was and always will be justified. Which makes sense when you actually look at what happened.


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    #29
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Are FF'ers not republicans?


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    #30
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    maccored wrote: »
    In the eyes of republicans the campaign was and always will be justified.
    Correction - Some republicans.
    maccored wrote: »
    Which makes sense when you actually look at what happened.
    What makes even more sense is the rejection of their campaign by a far greater number.


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    #31
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Are FF'ers not republicans?

    For a vote, they'll be what ever you want them to be.


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