Checking LeapCard balance

kryptonmight · 13-10-2013 9:29am #1

I recently bought a LeapCard and assumed I could check my live balance on the website but it turns out there's a 24-48 hour delay in that being updated. Does that mean if I want to know the actual balance, I have to go to a Payzone shop and ask them to check it for me? Will the balance displayed be accurate then or will that also be 24-48 hours out of date?

Seems like a bit of a shame that the website has a delay in getting the live balance shown. I was also surprised that the online topup still requires you to go to some shop or Luas/Dart station to collect it. Kinda quite substantial drawbacks.

Are they doing an app for it? I'm guessing it's just an NFC chip in the card and would just need an NFC capable smartphone to read the balance, along with the appropriate software or app.

Just wondering what I can do to keep on top of my balance. I will be commuting every day and while I will most likely take the bus, I may need to take the Luas as well/instead which makes the leap card more appealing compared to just a monthly bus ticket which can only be used on the bus.

markpb · 13-10-2013 9:57am

The balance printed on a receipt by a Payzone shop will be absolutely up to date. The reason the balance on the website is wrong and the reason you have to collect online topup somewhere is because the ticket machines on the buses, gates at Dart stations and validators at Luas stops aren't connected to the back office in realtime. Luas and Dart machines upload and download data periodically, DB can only upload data (periodically), they can't download because their ticket machines only have a few job of storage.

The only people who can write an app now are the NTA because you can't read any data off the card without the right keys which they won't give out publicly. I can't speak for the NTA but I assume most companies won't bother developing NFC apps until more phones have NFC capability, right now it's too limited. That doesn't stop people doing it off their own bat of course (except for the aforementioned key problem).

beauf · 13-10-2013 10:23am

Why on earth did they come up with such a limited background system that 24/48 hrs out of sync.

I found an app on android to (I assume) log on to the website and give you the balance. But I manage to enter my password wrong and it locked me out!

goingnowhere · 13-10-2013 12:34pm

Because thats the way these systems work the world over. To run a full real-time system would result in unacceptable delays in carrying out transactions (3-5 seconds vs 500ms as Irish Rail and Luas can handle)

You can check your real-time balance
1. Whenever you use the card the balance is displayed on all modes
2. At all Luas ticket machines and all Irish Rail ticket machines in the leap area
3. Any payzone outlet offering leap
4. Dublin Bus HQ
5. Any ticket checker on any transport operator who accept leap

Careful_now! · 13-10-2013 12:37pm

You can check your balance on any Dublin bus. Put your leap card in the drivers ticket machine and it will tell you.

beauf · 13-10-2013 4:04pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Because thats the way these systems work the world over. To run a full real-time system would result in unacceptable delays in carrying out transactions (3-5 seconds vs 500ms as Irish Rail and Luas can handle)

You can check your real-time balance
1. Whenever you use the card the balance is displayed on all modes
2. At all Luas ticket machines and all Irish Rail ticket machines in the leap area
3. Any payzone outlet offering leap
4. Dublin Bus HQ
5. Any ticket checker on any transport operator who accept leap

The point to want to check the balance is when you are not near a shop and want to hop on a bus. Not to get on the bus and find out you've no credit left on your leap card.

I could understand a few hours delays was the buses stop at the terminal or such. But two days? Seriously.

miller50841 · 13-10-2013 4:14pm

It's a very simple and good system yes they had a few teething problems.

When you use your card on the validator or on the ticket machine it displays the balance so every time you use it you need to look at the display and then you know if it's got money left or it's been all used on that transaction.

If you ever want to see your last 5 transactions you can ask the bus driver to print one out for you if he presses the enter key on ticket machine.

The only big problem with the system is that even though you are using the card it's the same as using cash so you should be prepared to have the fare in cash form in case your card is faulty or zero balance.

AlekSmart · 13-10-2013 4:27pm

kryptonmight wrote: »

.
Just wondering what I can do to keep on top of my balance. I will be commuting every day and while I will most likely take the bus, I may need to take the Luas as well/instead which makes the leap card more appealing compared to just a monthly bus ticket which can only be used on the bus.

If anybody is going to get on board the ITS train and utilize it to the fullest,then signing up to an Auto Top-Up is the best way to ensure one never runs out of credit.

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

3.4 Auto Top-Up - Coming Soon

(a) The terms and conditions in this section 3.4 shall be binding on any Leap Card customer who avails of the Auto Top-Up facility (when introduced).

(b) Registered and Personalised Leap Card customers can apply for the Auto Top-Up facility by completing the Online application form available at www.leapcard.ie. As part of the application process the Leap Card customer must nominate a bank account with an accepted payment source (as per sub-section (h) below) from which Auto Top-Ups can be debited (the “Account”).

(c) The Leap Card customer is responsible for ensuring that the Account information is accurate and up to date and that his/her Account is at all times valid and contains sufficient funds or credit in order to meet deductions by the Authority in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. Leap Card customers can request to disable their Auto Top-Up Online at www.leapcard.ie. Leap Card customers shall disable their Auto Top-Up facility immediately in the event of any closure or termination of the Account.

(d) The Authority will set a minimum Travel Credit balance (the “threshold”) from time to time. With Auto Top-Up, when a Leap Card customer’s Travel Credit balance falls below the threshold, the Leap Card will be automatically reloaded with Leap Card customer’s pre-selected reload value (the “reload value”), and simultaneously an instruction will automatically be sent to debit the reload value from the Account. The initial threshold is set at €10.00

(e) During the application for Auto Top-Up, Leap Card customers may designate a reload value (e.g. €30.00, €40.00 or €50.00).The Leap Card customer may not change the reload value once Auto Top-Up has been enabled.

(f) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein contained, the Leap Card customer agrees that a minimum period of 5 days must elapse between each Auto Top-Up. The Authority shall not be obliged to top-up an Auto Top-Up enabled Leap Card until after the Leap Card customer’s Account has been successfully debited for any previous Auto Top-Ups.

(g) Receipt of top-up on your Leap Card shall constitute notification that a direct debit for the amount of the top-up will be presented to your Account. The direct debit will be presented on the next business day after we receive notification of the top-up. The Leap Card customer’s Online account will display details of the Auto Top-Up amounts that the Leap Card customer has received. In addition the last six transactions performed on the Leap Card can also be viewed on Luas and Irish Rail ticket machines.

(h) Auto Top-Up may only be paid for via direct debit payments using the Leap Card customer’s designated current account in a Republic of Ireland Bank; Credit/Debit card payments will not be accepted as a payment method for Auto Top-Up.

(i) Leap Card customers may cancel their Auto Top-Up facility Online at any time. The cancellation request only becomes effective when configured on to the Leap Card. Until the Leap Card is configured, the Auto Top-Up remains in place and the customer will still be liable for any Auto Top-Up prior to the cancellation taking effect. The Authority will endeavour to ensure that the cancellation request will be available for configuration on to the Leap Card as soon as possible; however, it cannot guarantee that the request will be available sooner than 36 hours after cancellation.

(j) If an Auto Top-Up enabled Leap Card is lost or stolen the customer must inform the Customer Care Line as soon as possible to request cancellation of their card. The cancellation request only becomes effective when configured on to the Leap Card. Until the Leap Card is configured, the Auto Top-Up facility remains in place and the customer will still be responsible for any Auto Top-Up triggered prior to the cancellation taking effect. The Authority will endeavour to ensure that any Travel Credit, including any Auto Top-Up credit on the Auto Top-Up enabled Leap Card, is transferred to a replacement card.

(k) If an Auto Top-Up instruction for a Leap Card is rejected by a Leap Card customer’s financial institution, the Authority reserves the right to do any or all of the following without advance notification:

i.Cancel the Leap Card.

ii.Suspend the use of the Leap Card for such period as may be determined by the Authority.

iii.Recover from the Leap Card customer the amount of any rejected transaction plus all costs incurred (including legal costs on a full indemnity basis) by the Authority for the recovery of any such amounts.

iv.Withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility from the Leap Card customer.

v.Disqualify the Leap Card customer from applying for any new Auto Top-Up facility for such length of time as may be determined to be appropriate by the Authority.

vi.Deduct or set-off any monies owing to the Authority from the remaining value and any Deposit in respect of the Leap Card.

(l) The Authority reserves the right to withdraw the Auto Top-Up facility for all Leap Card customers at its discretion or modify either the reload value or the threshold value from time to time.

With the imminent migration of Bus Rambler Ticket products,to be quickly followed by Bus/Rail and Bus /Luas tickets,plus in the medium term,Multi-Operator Discounting/Capping,the savvy Leapcarder will move to avail of the best options to maintain it's functionality.

With a more modern architecture than Oyster,the Leapcard really has the potential to completely change our Public Transport usage options and alternatives.

However,it really is going to demand a change of attitude from many natives,who often tend to sit and throw rotten fruit whilst muttering Bah,Humbug's darkly under their breath...

Leapcard is ALL about change,and acceptance of that change WILL bring significant positives...the downside,is that those who wish to retain the traditional methods will quite rapidly find themselves paying through the nose for that "Retro" experience...;)

beauf · 13-10-2013 6:32pm

Who wants the old system?

Many people have experienced systems like this across the world for the last 20yrs or more. We've been waiting for something similar for a very long time.

Most buses aren't 24 hrs, so they must go to a depot in that time. Probably a lot more often that during the day. Its just a bit puzzling why it would take 48 hrs to sync the data. You make it sound like its a limitation of system they've designed.

beauf · 13-10-2013 6:34pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

If anybody is going to get on board the ITS train and utilize it to the fullest,then signing up to an Auto Top-Up is the best way to ensure one never runs out of credit.....

You're right I must to that. Keeping exact change for every possible journey isn't that practical. I find it very handy to have a card.

Dravokivich · 13-10-2013 6:56pm

beauf wrote: »

Who wants the old system?

Many people have experienced systems like this across the world for the last 20yrs or more. We've been waiting for something similar for a very long time.

Most buses aren't 24 hrs, so they must go to a depot in that time. Probably a lot more often that during the day. Its just a bit puzzling why it would take 48 hrs to sync the data. You make it sound like its a limitation of system they've designed.

The issue isnt a matter of "per bus" as with irish rail its not "per train" nor is luas "per tram". its when the operator uploads a collection of their data to leap.

Victor · 13-10-2013 8:33pm

The vast majority of the time, things will be up to date first thing in the morning.

When using your card, check you balance. If it drops below zero, you can't use your card - so top-up then. Provided you have at least €0.01 on the card, you can always make one last journey (not including Dublin Bus route 747 to the airport or long distance services).

bk · 13-10-2013 11:30pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Because thats the way these systems work the world over. To run a full real-time system would result in unacceptable delays in carrying out transactions (3-5 seconds vs 500ms as Irish Rail and Luas can handle)

True, you can't do the actual transaction in realtime, however there is absolutely no reason why it can't be close to realtime in updating the website. Lets say within 30 minutes should be easily doable.

The reason why it can't do that is the deficient Dublin Bus ticket machines, which aren't online and only upload their transactions at the end of the day in the depot.

The new ticket machine being used by some private operators is online and can upload the data over 3g much quicker and more frequently.

3.4 Auto Top-Up - Coming Soon

Auto Top-Up is great, I use it (I'm on the trial), but it has been coming soon for months now and it still hasn't been rolled out to all users. Way too slow.

kryptonmight · 17-10-2013 5:09pm

So if I top-up online by 5pm, when I go to the luas stop the next morning, it will update the balance on the card when I touch on?

Does this also apply at weekends?

Dravokivich · 17-10-2013 11:43pm

kryptonmight wrote: »

So if I top-up online by 5pm, when I go to the luas stop the next morning, it will update the balance on the card when I touch on?

Does this also apply at weekends?

As long as nothing prevents the topup being distrubuted to the device, from either the leap or the operator, yes. Should be the same at the weekend as theyd be done with periodic jobs being run.

GLaDOS · 17-10-2013 11:49pm

Auto top up was fantastic, unfortunately I lost my card and when I got a replacement I wasn't on the trial any more

Wish they'd roll it out already.

Victor · 18-10-2013 12:44am

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Auto top up was fantastic, unfortunately I lost my card

You did cancel it, yes?

GLaDOS · 18-10-2013 12:50am

Yeah straight away

stop · 18-10-2013 11:45am

Hang on a second, if I have auto-top enabled, and I only use Dublin Bus, will the auto top up never make it to my card?

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 11:57am

stop wrote: »

Hang on a second, if I have auto-top enabled, and I only use Dublin Bus, will the auto top up never make it to my card?

Yes, because it's your card telling the device it needs credit, as opposed to the device holding a topup for you to collect.

kryptonmight · 18-10-2013 1:58pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yes, because it's your card telling the device it needs credit, as opposed to the device holding a topup for you to collect.

So basically with auto top up, you still need to load the balance via a luas/dart stop or payzone?

I wish the Dublin bus machines could update over the air.

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 2:15pm

kryptonmight wrote: »

So basically with auto top up, you still need to load the balance via a luas/dart stop or payzone?

I wish the Dublin bus machines could update over the air.

The anwser to the question Stop asked is yes, because it doesn't matter which device you are using.

Auto Topup will load onto a card from;

Dublin Bus
Luas
Irish Rail

Because it's the card telling them it needs the topup. With online topup, it's the device that gives it to the card.

I'm unsure if private operators or Bus Eireann are set up for it.

Edit:
Just noticed, I slightly miss read Stops question. I should have said no. I thought he wrote "ever" as opposed to "never."

stop · 18-10-2013 2:44pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yes, because it's your card telling the device it needs credit, as opposed to the device holding a topup for you to collect.

ok I follow that, but how does the card know how much it has been auto-topped-up by? (Again assuming Dublin Bus only usage)

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 3:08pm

stop wrote: »

ok I follow that, but how does the card know how much it has been auto-topped-up by? (Again assuming Dublin Bus only usage)

When you sign up to auto topup, you nominate the amount to be loaded onto your card.

stop · 18-10-2013 3:35pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

When you sign up to auto topup, you nominate the amount to be loaded onto your card.

ok, but I already have my card before I sign up to auto-top-up, and I'm only using Dublin Bus, at what point does the information on the top up amount get transferred to the card?

Just so people follow:

Use leap on Dublin Bus - card drops below tenner
Dublin Bus passes transactions to leap - leap realises credit below tenner and sends auto top up request
Money transferred from bank account
Leap credits card account with top up value
???
Balance on card has received auto top up on next visit to Dublin Bus?

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 3:47pm

It's more like:

1) you sign up to auto topup, determine which operator will enable the card (this is just to switch it on, once on, auto topup will work on Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail)
2) Collect the enable.
3) When using your card and it is below the threshold prior to being charged for a journey, the auto topup config on your card, will pull a topup from the device onto your card.
4) It'll then loaded up to leap by the operator as part of your transaction history and they'll process the direct debit with your bank.

Your auto topup should be on the card immediately, once you are using the card when it is below the threshold.

But you have to pick up the enable first. Which I believe was avail to do with Dublin Bus during the trial.

stop · 18-10-2013 3:55pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's more like:

1) you sign up to auto topup, determine which operator will enable the card (this is just to switch it on, once on, auto topup will work on Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail)
2) Collect the enable.
3) When using your card and it is below the threshold prior to being charged for a journey, the auto topup config on your card, will pull a topup from the device onto your card.
4) It'll then loaded up to leap by the operator as part of your transaction history and they'll process the direct debit with your bank.

Your auto topup should be on the card immediately, once you are using the card when it is below the threshold.

But you have to pick up the enable first. Which I believe was avail to do with Dublin Bus during the trial.

Ok, I see it clearer now, thanks.

My point of interest was that Dublin Bus are writing information to the card by passing the auto top up 'enable' to the card. I was under the impression from previous discussions that the process of DB writing info to the cards was not possible. I guess as this is obviously a one off, with a limited time frame, it is within the limitations of the DB devices.

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 4:04pm

With Dublin Bus, it all depends on the quantity of data. They needed it more for the transactions that occur on the bus itself. The validator does write to the leapcard. It's how the transactions/journeys are charged. It's just the amount of memory avail to hold a list of pending topups wasn't sufficient, when it also needs to hold a list of transactions that occurred.

AlekSmart · 18-10-2013 4:06pm

stop wrote: »

Ok, I see it clearer now, thanks.

My point of interest was that Dublin Bus are writing information to the card by passing the auto top up 'enable' to the card. I was under the impression from previous discussions that the process of DB writing info to the cards was not possible. I guess as this is obviously a one off, with a limited time frame, it is within the limitations of the DB devices.

From my limited understanding,the Dublin Bus machine writes nothing to the Leapcard in Auto Top-Up mode.

The threshold amount and the direct-debit amount are already encoded on the Card at inception of the DD,or first Credit thereafter ?

All that the Wayfarer does is recognize the triggering of that DD,the rest is in the hands of the Irish Banking system ..? :eek:

Dravokivich · 18-10-2013 4:18pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

From my limited understanding,the Dublin Bus machine writes nothing to the Leapcard in Auto Top-Up mode.

The threshold amount and the direct-debit amount are already encoded on the Card at inception of the DD,or first Credit thereafter ?

All that the Wayfarer does is recognize the triggering of that DD,the rest is in the hands of the Irish Banking system ..? :eek:

The wayfarer or the validator by the door should topup a card configured for auto topup. I'm unsure if it's the card that tells the device it's under the threshold, or if the device recognises the card is set for auto topup and it's under the threshold. (I recall hearing of a threshold issue with Irish Rail when they started the trial.) But it's the card that'll tell it, how much credit it needs to be given. This will all happen on the bus, then it gets passed on to Leap, who charge out to the bank.

So in a ways, you get the credit before you pay for it.

stop · 18-10-2013 5:10pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

From my limited understanding,the Dublin Bus machine writes nothing to the Leapcard in Auto Top-Up mode.

The threshold amount and the direct-debit amount are already encoded on the Card at inception of the DD,or first Credit thereafter ?

All that the Wayfarer does is recognize the triggering of that DD,the rest is in the hands of the Irish Banking system ..? :eek:

But from Dravokivich's comments about and my reading of the auto top guide, in the first (one off) instance, when Leap is passing information to the card that it is now to auto top up by X amount, that information must have been passed by the Dublin Bus machine. (once again, assuming only DB use)
Otherwise how would the card have the information that it is now capable of auto top up.

Checking LeapCard balance

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