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Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

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24567…27

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    #32
    Heisenberg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,511 ✭✭✭Heisenberg1


    Infini2 wrote: »
    They shouldve all walked out on strike tbh. As it stands though this is all down to bad management appointed by the same lads running the government for the last few years they want to make changes that only benefits themselves and only themselves.

    One thing to watch is if Irish Rail join in now as well because management over there are trying the same thing there too, Unions over there are already voting on their own agreement and its a general consensus with the employees that theyve had enough. Theyre just taking the companies one at a time because all those managment and the goverment would be scared $hitless if all 3 companies went on strike at once triggering a perfect $hitstorm for them.

    They got BE in a new agreement but its not impossible if IR and DB went on strike that they could be called out too and thats the thing to watch for.

    Just curious about the part in bold can you outline the changes they want to make.


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    #33
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Try telling that to all the civil and public servants who had legislation brought in to unilaterally change their contracts.

    perhaps you missed the quote, a contract can only be changed by legislation or agreement, DB can not pass legislation and they have no agreement. So they are unilaterally breaking a contract which they legally can not do.


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    #34
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Infini2 wrote: »
    They shouldve all walked out on strike tbh. As it stands though this is all down to bad management appointed by the same lads running the government for the last few years they want to make changes that only benefits themselves and only themselves.

    One thing to watch is if Irish Rail join in now as well because management over there are trying the same thing there too, Unions over there are already voting on their own agreement and its a general consensus with the employees that theyve had enough. Theyre just taking the companies one at a time because all those managment and the goverment would be scared $hitless if all 3 companies went on strike at once triggering a perfect $hitstorm for them.

    They got BE in a new agreement but its not impossible if IR and DB went on strike that they could be called out too and thats the thing to watch for.

    Won't happen unions have zero interest in fighting anything, it is all just a pantomime playing out. There will be tough talk alright but in the end they will roll over, if the union leadership had their way they would take the deal right now but they know their members wont take it so they need to soften them up a bit by taking a few days pay off you. Then some all night baloney and serve you up 99% of the same **** with a management pay cut and tell you its the best they can do.

    Ask them why they are not trying to block it legally as the company have no right to force an unagreed change to your contract ???


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    #35
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    cdebru wrote: »
    perhaps you missed the quote, a contract can only be changed by legislation or agreement, DB can not pass legislation and they have no agreement. So they are unilaterally breaking a contract which they legally can not do.

    Their shareholder can.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #36
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Their shareholder can.
    But they haven't and it would be highly unlikely as they have displayed no interest in legislating to reduce large payments to CEOs of banks they own.
    But bring it on as it would denude the government of the excuse they regularly roll out when some top dog in a bank or quango is revealed to be earning crazy money " there is nothing we can do he has a contract"


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    #37
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdebru wrote: »
    Ask them why they are not trying to block it legally as the company have no right to force an unagreed change to your contract ???

    So on one hand you're arguing that unagreed changes to contract should not be allowed to be forced through and the unions should block it legally since the company has no right.
    cdebru wrote: »
    But bring it on as it would denude the government of the excuse they regularly roll out when some top dog in a bank or quango is revealed to be earning crazy money " there is nothing we can do he has a contract"

    But on the other hand you're then arguing that the government should be able to force through unagreed changes to contracts and should have a right to do so.

    So basically you want to apply different rules to different people.


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    #38
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    devnull wrote: »
    So on one hand you're arguing that unagreed changes to contract should not be allowed to be forced through and the unions should block it legally since the company has no right.



    But on the other hand you're then arguing that the government should be able to force through unagreed changes to contracts and should have a right to do so.

    So basically you want to apply different rules to different people.

    no same rules for everyone, the company have no legal right to make unilateral changes to a contract.
    it can only be changed by agreement or legislation,if the government chose to introduce legislation which i doubt they would, then at least they will have to do it for everyone not just busdrivers.
    fairly simple.


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    #39
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    Won't happen unions have zero interest in fighting anything, it is all just a pantomime playing out. There will be tough talk alright but in the end they will roll over, if the union leadership had their way they would take the deal right now but they know their members wont take it so they need to soften them up a bit by taking a few days pay off you. Then some all night baloney and serve you up 99% of the same **** with a management pay cut and tell you its the best they can do.

    Ask them why they are not trying to block it legally as the company have no right to force an unagreed change to your contract ???

    Are you seriously suggesting that:

    1) Further cost cutting measures are not needed?
    2) Having endless negotiations lasting a year is an acceptable way of running a company?

    No company can remain stagnant, they all need to constantly monitor costs, efficiencies etc.

    While there are (I'm sure) cost reductions to be gained from cuts in management salaries (which for senior mangement should be at a higher percentage level than lower staff grades), they are going to be a drop in the ocean compared with the savings from changes in general staff pay costs. That is a reality down to the sheer numbers of people involved.

    No one likes change, but nor can a company remain stagnant in terms of reviewing costs. That's something that should be constantly reviewed. Reading some of the posts here that seems to be going over some people's heads.

    To me, this is a situation where the company has got to the point where they have decided that they need to force the issue to a resolution, based on the LRC arriving at a decision. Frankly, given these negotiations have lasted a year, I can't really blame them. I don't know of any company where that would be viewed as an acceptable length of time.

    I am not in any way advocating that companies should have the right to change conditions of their employees without negotiation. Of course there should be, but at the same time there should be a realistic time limit on getting an agreed change. A full year of continuing with negotiations without achieving agreement (including an LRC proposal) is ludicrous. I think that people need to wake up to the economic realities that the good times are over. As someone who has had to endure changes in my own pay and conditions (all negative), I'm all too aware of that. But I've had to get on with it. The alternative was no job.

    Your analysis of what will happen next is exactly what I think will happen, and that sums it up. The *game* (and that is what it is) will play out with some more concessions on both sides being agreed, after a day or two of no services, that will differ little from the existing proposal, but will be hailed as a victory by all sides.

    The problem I have with all of this is that once again, as with Bus Eireann, the innocent party, the customer, will lose out, with a suspension of services for a day or two. That is unforgivable in the current economic climate.

    The thing that people don't seem to be grasping is that the playing field is about to change in a big way with the the market being opened up - the companies need to have the ability to change and deal with that - otherwise they're not going to last.


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    #40
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    cdebru wrote: »
    no same rules for everyone, the company have no legal right to make unilateral changes to a contract.
    it can only be changed by agreement or legislation,if the government chose to introduce legislation which i doubt they would, then at least they will have to do it for everyone not just busdrivers.
    fairly simple.

    including tthe bankers? And the management of companies you moaned that the government did not cut?

    seems to be as usual changes should be made long as they don't effect yourself


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    #41
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that:

    1) Further cost cutting measures are not needed?
    2) Having endless negotiations lasting a year is an acceptable way of running a company?

    No company can remain stagnant, they all need to constantly monitor costs, efficiencies etc.

    While there are (I'm sure) cost reductions to be gained from cuts in management salaries (which for senior mangement should be at a higher percentage level than lower staff grades), they are going to be a drop in the ocean compared with the savings from changes in general staff pay costs. That is a reality down to the sheer numbers of people involved.

    No one likes change, but nor can a company remain stagnant in terms of reviewing costs. That's something that should be constantly reviewed. Reading some of the posts here that seems to be going over some people's heads.

    To me, this is a situation where the company has got to the point where they have decided that they need to force the issue to a resolution, based on the LRC arriving at a decision. Frankly, given these negotiations have lasted a year, I can't really blame them. I don't know of any company where that would be viewed as an acceptable length of time.

    I am not in any way advocating that companies should have the right to change conditions of their employees without negotiation. Of course there should be, but at the same time there should be a realistic time limit on getting an agreed change. A full year of continuing with negotiations without achieving agreement (including an LRC proposal) is ludicrous. I think that people need to wake up to the economic realities that the good times are over. As someone who has had to endure changes in my own pay and conditions (all negative), I'm all too aware of that. But I've had to get on with it. The alternative was no job.

    Your analysis of what will happen next is exactly what I think will happen, and that sums it up. The *game* (and that is what it is) will play out with some more concessions on both sides being agreed, after a day or two of no services, that will differ little from the existing proposal, but will be hailed as a victory by all sides.

    The problem I have with all of this is that once again, as with Bus Eireann, the innocent party, the customer, will lose out, with a suspension of services for a day or two. That is unforgivable in the current economic climate.

    The thing that people don't seem to be grasping is that the playing field is about to change in a big way with the the market being opened up - the companies need to have the ability to change and deal with that - otherwise they're not going to last.

    No I would suggest real negotiations with the game playing.

    I would also suggest that a dose of reality regarding the free travel scheme would go a long way to resolving any financial difficulties the company is facing.
    That however is not even mentioned and instead the staff are expected to cover the costs associated with having a third of the adult population entitled to travel for free.

    I would also suggest that if the company were genuinely interested in meaningful negotiations that showing their employees their plans for summer schedules might be a start.


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    #42
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    It's offical.

    They've served strike notice TheJournal.ie Link

    RTE Link
    TRANSPORT SERVICES ACROSS the capital will be severely hit if a proposed strike by Dublin Bus staff goes ahead.

    Workers at both the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) and SIPTU have served strike notice on the company, with workers set to down tools on Sunday.


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    #43
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    How many years has the company been hemorrhaging money 10 /12 years or is it longer ,
    The free pass system needs a major overhall that's nothing new but I doubt it will solve the companies problems ,a company with little or no competition and yet can't make profits ,
    I seem to remember a few years ago 140 drivers were taken on and trained to take new routes that never materialised and yet the unions insisted they all be kept on and used else where ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #44
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    No I would suggest real negotiations with the game playing.

    I would also suggest that a dose of reality regarding the free travel scheme would go a long way to resolving any financial difficulties the company is facing.
    That however is not even mentioned and instead the staff are expected to cover the costs associated with having a third of the adult population entitled to travel for free.

    I would also suggest that if the company were genuinely interested in meaningful negotiations that showing their employees their plans for summer schedules might be a start.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the free travel scheme - that is a matter for government policy, and is outside the remit of Dublin Bus. It is a completely separate issue.

    The reality is that DB's cost base is too high and this has to change. I'm sorry to break this news to you, as you seem to be in denial - but that has to be addressed. I am saying this as someone who has worked in two companies over the last 10 years where we continually reviewed costs, and who has had to make not insignificant personal sacrifices to keep my job.

    For negotiations to be ongoing for a full year with no agreement is nothing short of a disgrace, and suggests to me that the people involved don't seem to be grasping the seriousness of the situation. No company can operate with that sort of inability to change work practices, or review costs. As I said above - there have to be negotiations, but they have to have a defined time limit - really this has gone beyond a joke.


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    #45
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    liger wrote: »
    Well at least its happening on the bank holiday weekend, 2 days of not much interuption.

    erm, not everyone leaves the city on the weekends/bank holiday weekends, it will cause lots of disruption.


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    #46
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    the customer, will lose out, with a suspension of services for a day or two. That is unforgivable in the current economic climate.
    but it was fine during the good times? people did need to use the busses then you know living in dublin if the busses go down your not completely stuck, inconvenienced maybe but one has to get on with it, there are other options

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #47
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    including tthe bankers? And the management of companies you moaned that the government did not cut?
    is that a problem? so such management shouldn't be cut then?
    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    seems to be as usual changes should be made long as they don't effect yourself
    thats not what he meant and you know it, but don't let your agenda against the ground staff working in the CIE companies stop you from twisting what he said to suit it

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bus drivers always seem to go on strike when i am banging on the door trying to get on the bus. They are masters of ignoring you.


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    #49
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    but it was fine during the good times? people did need to use the busses then you know living in dublin if the busses go down your not completely stuck, inconvenienced maybe but one has to get on with it, there are other options

    It is not acceptable for customers to be affected at ANY time.

    I think you are being rather blasé about the sacrifice customers will have to make. Many people do not have an alternative option, such as LUAS or rail. They rely completely on the bus. What is someone in Finglas or Templeogue, for example to do? Walk? I would hardly call that an "inconvenience".

    Can you in all seriousness suggest that there is not something fundamentally wrong where negotiations have been ongoing for over a year and no agreement has been reached??


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    #50
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Bus drivers always seem to go on strike when i am banging on the door trying to get on the bus. They are masters of ignoring you.

    That's a different matter.

    Once a driver has closed the doors, they are focussing on the road and traffic - not on passengers who have just missed the bus.

    From a road safety perspective, that is completely the right thing to do. Sorry to be harsh, but that's life.


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    #51
    Devilman40k
    Registered Users Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Devilman40k


    end of the road wrote: »
    but it was fine during the good times? people did need to use the busses then you know living in dublin if the busses go down your not completely stuck, inconvenienced maybe but one has to get on with it, there are other options

    Not in the vast majority of cases, yes if you live close to DART/Commuter rail lines or near Red or Green Line, outside of that you're pretty stuffed, unless you have a car or live within cycling distance

    And if you use 2 buses to commute to work what then?...pay 30-50 per day in taxi's that gets very uneconomical VERY quickly.


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    #52
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    It's great hearing about these other options. If this goes ahead I'm all for privatisation, nip these antics in the bud.


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    #53
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    If this goes ahead I'm all for privatisation, nip these antics in the bud.
    these antics are vital to make management examine all options for cost cutting rather then just the staff while the wastefulness continues, privatisation won't nip them in the bud and nor should it be able to be, complete privatisation of dublin bus shouldn't be able to happen as it would still mean a monopoly only probably service cuts and more in the name of maximising proffits, supporting privatisation because the drivers go on strike the very odd time just proves one is petty and a begrudger.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #54
    LoonyLovegood
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    My bus driver this morning didn't seem to know anything about a strike when I asked him getting on...


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    #55
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    these antics are vital to make management examine all options for cost cutting rather then just the staff while the wastefulness continues, privatisation won't nip them in the bud and nor should it be able to be, complete privatisation of dublin bus shouldn't be able to happen as it would still mean a monopoly only probably service cuts and more in the name of maximising proffits, supporting privatisation because the drivers go on strike the very odd time just proves one is petty and a begrudger.

    These "antics" are not vital.

    This should have been resolved within 3 months of negotiations starting, and not still unresolved 1 year later, and should have been arrived at through the industrial relations processes without affecting customers.


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    #56
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    end of the road wrote: »
    these antics are vital to make management examine all options for cost cutting rather then just the staff while the wastefulness continues, privatisation won't nip them in the bud and nor should it be able to be, complete privatisation of dublin bus shouldn't be able to happen as it would still mean a monopoly only probably service cuts and more in the name of maximising proffits, supporting privatisation because the drivers go on strike the very odd time just proves one is petty and a begrudger.

    Vital for what exactly? It will only bring further undermining towards the cause of non privatisation of CIÉ. The DB customer base is fed up and staff will make no friends through strike action. The cost base is way too high and needs to be tackled. Maybe the 20% raise was a little too high in 2000? It's hard to be understanding after 14 months and a Labour Court agreement.


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    #57
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    Vital for what exactly?
    i all ready told you, go read my post again
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    It will only bring further undermining towards the cause of non privatisation of CIÉ.
    from the government and some people here on boards
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    The DB customer base is fed up
    many of the customers who post here in this forum, but the rest while they whinj and whine about strike action just get on with it
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    staff will make no friends through strike action.
    they don't need friends, all they need to do is to use this vital tool as a last resort to get management to put all options on the table for cuts, nothing wrong with that, most people if they could strike without being sacked would do so, i don't believe anyone who says they wouldn't
    Stevek101 wrote: »
    The cost base is way too high and needs to be tackled.
    the drivers agree with that and are both willing and commited to taking cuts, their just not willing to be the only port of call for cuts when their are other options for cuts along with them, thats reasonable to me

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #58
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    end of the road wrote: »
    supporting privatisation because the drivers go on strike the very odd time just proves one is petty and a begrudger.
    You're implying the odd strike does no harm to anyone? This, combined with your suggestion that people can just get taxis instead... I'm speechless!

    Please tell me you don't work for CIE!


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    #59
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Like BÉ this deal won't be changed. All that will be added in is a core management pay cut. Is it really worth striking for that?


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    #60
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,603 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    i all ready told you, go read my post again

    from the government and some people here on boards

    many of the customers who post here in this forum, but the rest while they whinj and whine about strike action just get on with it

    they don't need friends, all they need to do is to use this vital tool as a last resort to get management to put all options on the table for cuts, nothing wrong with that, most people if they could strike without being sacked would do so, i don't believe anyone who says they wouldn't

    the drivers agree with that and are both willing and commited to taking cuts, their just not willing to be the only port of call for cuts when their are other options for cuts along with them, thats reasonable to me

    I find this sort of attitude frankly unreal. Many people can't "get on with it" without this having a serious cost impact on their pocket as they don't have the option of rail or LUAS or walking. A taxi or taking holidays may be their only option which is going to be damned expensive, and completely unnecessary.

    I'll ask the question again.

    Do you think 14 months of negotiations on cost reduction proposals (including LRC involvement) is acceptable in the context of running a company?


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    #61
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    You're implying the odd strike does no harm to anyone? This, combined with your suggestion that people can just get taxis instead... I'm speechless!
    its a reasonable suggestion if the busses are down and you don't have access to a car luas or dart, yes a strike is an inconvenience but it isn't the end of the world, you do have options
    n97 mini wrote: »
    Please tell me you don't work for CIE!
    no, however i understand and except why their taking this action and i don't believe its the end of the world like some make it out to be, most would down tools as a last resort if they had the option to do so

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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