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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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    #902
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Getting 2/6 or more of car commuters onto bikes or their own two feet does not sound that hard.

    If it was so easy, someone would have come up with an succesful example of a similarly sized city with no light rail, no bypass and a very large hinterland using it as an employment, educational and medical centre that had come even somewhere close to that.

    We had a massive thread, nobody did. Or anything close even.


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    #903
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    If it was so easy, someone would have come up with an succesful example of a similarly sized city with no light rail, no bypass and a very large hinterland using it as an employment, educational and medical centre that had come even somewhere close to that.

    We had a massive thread, nobody did. Or anything close even.

    I did not say it would be easy, just that it does not sound too hard - as in it's nowhere near impossable.

    Very few examples from other cities will be a perfect match for any city to follow.

    In this case, all Dutch examples -- even ones with no light rail and large hinterlands -- are discounted due to your requirement of having a bypass... But we know that the Dutch have highly developed motorway and railway systems mainly because their cities have notable populations focused in cities and their cities are reasonably closely knitted and are they border with countries of somewhat the same makeup.

    However, trying to claim the above including the lack of an outter bypass* dissallows the use of Dutch solutions for local traffic is a prime example of throwing the baby out with the bath water!

    Again no example will be a perfict fit and somebody will always come up with some excuse: DublinBikes we were told would all end up in the canals and river because Dublin is diffrent, few people would use Luas, Dart was a waste of money, removing cars from Shop Street would kill Galway, the bus gate at College Green would kill the city centre etc, etc, etc

    Back to Galway: In Galway's case you could deal with local to mid-range traffic and free up space for longer distance commuters: but that kind of thinking suits none of the extremes which dominate this debate.

    *there is a bypass in place, it being built around does not change that.


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    #904
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    monument wrote: »
    I did not say it would be easy, just that it does not sound too hard - as in it's nowhere near impossable.

    Very few examples from other cities will be a perfect match for any city to follow.

    In this case, all Dutch examples -- even ones with no light rail and large hinterlands -- are discounted due to your requirement of having a bypass... But we know that the Dutch have highly developed motorway and railway systems mainly because their cities have notable populations focused in cities and their cities are reasonably closely knitted and are they border with countries of somewhat the same makeup.

    However, trying to claim the above including the lack of an outter bypass* dissallows the use of Dutch solutions for local traffic is a prime example of throwing the baby out with the bath water!

    Again no example will be a perfict fit and somebody will always come up with some excuse: DublinBikes we were told would all end up in the canals and river because Dublin is diffrent, few people would use Luas, Dart was a waste of money, removing cars from Shop Street would kill Galway, the bus gate at College Green would kill the city centre etc, etc, etc

    Back to Galway: In Galway's case you could deal with local to mid-range traffic and free up space for longer distance commuters: but that kind of thinking suits none of the extremes which dominate this debate.

    *there is a bypass in place, it being built around does not change that.

    Thank god they didn't use that rational when building the Quincentary bridge or we would all be queuing up to get over the salmon weir "bypass"


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    #905
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    With the disclaimer above and more to follow:

    Groningen in the Netherlands in some ways would be a good example to follow. A regional city, dismissed light rail for being too expensive, and also a universty town.

    But while Groningen has a cycling modal share of nearly 60% for city trips and is aiming higher, Galway could aim for a far more modest 20%-25%.

    There's lot Galway could learn from them including putting in park and ride for the city centre bound traffic: http://www.eltis.org/index.php?id=13&study_id=1700

    But I don't know why I'm bothering with any example given the unrealistic demand for a perfect-fit off-the-shelf example. And before the claims come in that Galway is different -- that's what most say about their town or city.


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    #906
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Thank god they didn't use that rational when building the Quincentary bridge or we would all be queuing up to get over the salmon weir "bypass"

    Exactly what rational are you talking about that's contained in my post and not just in your head?


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    #907
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    monument wrote: »
    Exactly what rational are you talking about that's contained in my post and not just in your head?

    The "There is a bypass inplace already"


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    #908
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    I did not say it would be easy, just that it does not sound too hard - as in it's nowhere near impossable.
    .


    "does not sound too hard" implies easy.

    A bypass is a fairly critical part of any traffic management plan - and no, Galway does not have one. A road which passes within an extremely short distance of the city centre and has its bridge effectively in the city centre is not and never has been a bypass.

    Its entirely legitimate to insist that any proposed model has to actually match the city, and yet nobody seems to be able to find one.


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    #909
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    "does not sound too hard" implies easy.

    Sure, then, relatively not too hard.

    MYOB wrote: »
    A bypass is a fairly critical part of any traffic management plan - and no, Galway does not have one. A road which passes within an extremely short distance of the city centre and has its bridge effectively in the city centre is not and never has been a bypass.

    Its entirely legitimate to insist that any proposed model has to actually match the city, and yet nobody seems to be able to find one.

    As already said, you'll never get the perfect-fit off-the-shelf example of any city. Galway is notable for having almost nothing west of it -- no major or notable urban area. What? Outside of the city's continuous urban area (or what counts for such in Galway), only 20,000 people in about 1,500km²?

    If it was a four lane grade separated motorway would it still matter if it was close to the city centre? So, is distance from the city centre really the problem?

    On the other hand, what is so unique about Galway that things like high-quality cycle paths or a planned system of park and ride would not work in getting more of the traffic out of cars? I don't buy the idea that Galway is unique and none of the solutions which work elsewhere won't work unless conditions are exactly replicated -- you're position is very simpler to those who objected to Shop Street / Grafton Street / DublinBikes / Luas etc.


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    #910
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    monument wrote: »
    With the disclaimer above and more to follow:



    But while Groningen has a cycling modal share of nearly 60% for city trips and is aiming higher, Galway could aim for a far more modest 20%-25%.

    There's lot Galway could learn from them including putting in park and ride for the city centre bound traffic: http://www.eltis.org/index.php?id=13&study_id=1700

    But I don't know why I'm bothering with any example given the unrealistic demand for a perfect-fit off-the-shelf example. And before the claims come in that Galway is different -- that's what most say about their town or city.

    What is the annual rainfall in Gronnigen?
    And how many days of rain are there there?


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    #911
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Sure, then, relatively not too hard.

    So where's the practical examples then? If its "relatively not too hard" I'd expect to see quite a few, and quickly too.
    monument wrote: »
    As already said, you'll never get the perfect-fit off-the-shelf example of any city.

    True, but you should at least be able to find something where the major parameters match...
    monument wrote: »
    If it was a four lane grade separated motorway would it still matter if it was close to the city centre? So, is distance from the city centre really the problem?

    The "grade separated" is the critical thing here. What Galway has is at best a distributor road.

    The number of junctions is also important, amongst other things.
    monument wrote: »
    On the other hand, what is so unique about Galway that things like high-quality cycle paths or a planned system of park and ride would not work in getting more of the traffic out of cars?

    The current park and ride experiment/disaster really doesn't give any hope to this.

    If you can show me somewhere similar where its had any major effect, you should rather than just suggesting that it *might*.
    monument wrote: »
    I don't buy the idea that Galway is unique and none of the solutions which work elsewhere won't work unless conditions are exactly replicated -- you're position is very simpler to those who objected to Shop Street / Grafton Street / DublinBikes / Luas etc.

    Nowhere has "exactly" been suggested, except by you.


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    #912
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Schools are off for the summer. Halves commute times in Dublin as well.
    MYOB wrote: »
    Schools are off, and due to that, about 1/6th of my workplace are off on holidays in any given week. That has far more of an impact than the lack of school traffic particularly as kids are generally all well home before the evening rush hits peak. Add the two together and you get an absolutely huge reduction in traffic.




    Well, fancy that. Schools off, Third Level students off, some workers on holidays, major roadworks on a key junction, tourist season well under way, tour buses vying for space in the city centre...

    Yet an "absolutely huge reduction in traffic", and not a bypass in sight.


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    #913
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And your point is?


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    #914
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    There's lot Galway could learn from them including putting in park and ride for the city centre bound traffic: http://www.eltis.org/index.php?id=13&study_id=1700

    Galway have a park and ride, there's an average usage of 60 vehicles per day including a match day P&R where it was full to the stadium over 6 weeks.

    Can we have less of the BS that won't work in Galway please?


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    #915
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Galway have a park and ride, there's an average usage of 60 vehicles per day including a match day P&R where it was full to the stadium over 6 weeks.

    Can we have less of the BS that won't work in Galway please?

    Park and Ride is not working in the city as there is huge amount of cheap car parking in the city centre. All the city council long term car parks charge €4 for the day - same as as the Park and Ride Service.
    See
    http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/RoadsandTraffic/ParkingintheCity/PublicCarParks/
    Gaol Rd / Cathedral 161 Long Term Car Park
    Dyke Road 556 Long Term Car Park
    College Road (Sportsground)42 Long Term Car Park
    Bowling Green / Newtownsmith 40 Short Stay Car Park
    Mill St 82 Short Stay Car Park
    and here is the capacity of the Multi-Story Car Parks
    http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/RoadsandTraffic/ParkingintheCity/Multi-StoreyCarParks/
    Jury's 348
    Harbour 114
    Eyre Square Centre 452
    Radisson 260
    Fairgreen House 400
    Roches Stores 580
    Hynes Yard 480

    and not forgetting On-Street Car Parking.


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    #916
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Park and Ride is not working in the city as there is huge amount of cheap car parking in the city centre. All the city council long term car parks charge €4 for the day - same as as the Park and Ride Service.

    Wasn't one of the arguments for P&R that it'd save the cost of fuel & parking in the city center. It works for shopping at christmas because people don't want to go hunting for limited parking spaces.

    Face facts, P&R is not a major part of Galway's future.


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    #917
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Corrected that for ya. :rolleyes:
    antoobrien wrote: »

    Face facts, P&R is not a major part of Galway's future, while so much cheap parking is available in Galway City Centre.


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    #918
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Corrected that for ya. :rolleyes:

    I see you've taken on IWH's approach of ignoring the point - P&R is supposed to be cheaper than fuel & parking - and instead stuck your fingers in your ears while muttering la la la la la la.


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    #919
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I agree 100% with DaCor. Surely all this extra allegorical stuff about Park and Rides and "is there a comparable city or not" can be kept for the appropriate thread in the appropriate forum?? This is nothing more than a civil request, me not being a mod or anything but I imagine it's nothing more than common sense to keep this thread for developments specifically about the road itself and the various infrastructural alternatives!

    Here it is in case anyone's forgotten. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056925104


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    #920
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Well, fancy that. Schools off, Third Level students off, some workers on holidays, major roadworks on a key junction, tourist season well under way, tour buses vying for space in the city centre...

    Yet an "absolutely huge reduction in traffic", and not a bypass in sight.
    Wow, you might be on to something there ... why bother with a bypass - it would be far better to abolish school :rolleyes:
    what_traffic wrote: »
    Corrected that for ya. :rolleyes:
    So your plan is to raise parking costs for no reason other than to support P&R initiatives.

    How does that help traffic going through the city that has no business there? More than, ya'know, a bypass?


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    #921
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Galway have a park and ride, there's an average usage of 60 vehicles per day including a match day P&R where it was full to the stadium over 6 weeks.

    Can we have less of the BS that won't work in Galway please?
    The Galway Independent wrote:
    The Park and Ride service at Galway Airport has been branded a 'fiasco' at a recent meeting of Galway City Council.

    The new service, aimed at commuters on the east side of the city, was launched in early May but has been dogged by controversy over a reported poor uptake by the public. While organisers have admitted that the initial reponse was "inevitably low", they urged that the facility be "given a chance" as it could play an "important role" in the management of the city's traffic issues.

    However, at a meeting at City Hall on Monday, Cllr Ollie Crowe said that €220,000 in taxpayers’ money, including €50,000 of the Council’s own funds, was “going down to drain”, with the service being underutilised by passengers.“Something has to be done,” he said.

    Responding to Cllr Crowe’s comments, Director of Services Ciaran Hayes acknowledged that passenger figures for the service were “disappointing” and said that the Council was engaging with the operators on an ongoing basis. He added that he would like to see an improvement in uptake, but again stressed that it was still a new service.
    here on June 12th and here on June 20th.
    The Galway Independent wrote:
    A local bus company is believed to have lost in the region of €30,000 in five weeks as a result of the poor performance of the Park and Ride service at Galway Airport.

    The Galway Independent can exclusively reveal that an average of just 60 people a day have been using the service, aimed at commuters on the east of the city, since its launch at the beginning of May. This is despite 50 journeys taking place between 7.20am and 6.45pm daily. ...

    It is understood that the operators of the service, Farrell Travel’s Bus Link, are absorbing the full running cost of the Park and Ride and received no contribution from either Galway Chamber or Galway City Council, who are pioneering the project. ...

    When contacted by the Galway Independent, Fergus Farrell of Farrell Travel said that he was “very, very, very disappointed” with the outcome of the initiative.

    “The situation is that Bus Link and Farrell Travel have committed to providing the service for the six months. We were lead to believe that all the marketing etc would be carried out by a third party, unfortunately that hasn’t been done. We’ve provided the service as best as possible and we’ve been let down in other areas. Unfortunately, Bus Link is taking all the hit on this, which is outrageous really.”


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    #922
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I see you've taken on IWH's approach of ignoring the point - P&R is supposed to be cheaper than fuel & parking - and instead stuck your fingers in your ears while muttering la la la la la la.

    Nope - that's the point I was hinting at. P&R won't work in Galway because it cannot compete with all the cheap car parking in the city provided by Galway City Council.


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    #923
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    SeanW wrote: »
    So your plan is to raise parking costs for no reason other than to support P&R initiatives.

    How does that help traffic going through the city that has no business there? More than, ya'know, a bypass?

    Main reason is to reduce car traffic in the city - not help P&R.
    Would be more in favour of reducing car parking in the city centre and then after that increase car parking cost's.


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    #924
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Main reason is to reduce car traffic in the city - not help P&R.
    Would be more in favour of reducing car parking in the city centre and then after that increase car parking cost's.
    While this is debatable on its own merits (or lack thereof depending on your view) I don't see how this is relevant to a BYPASS, which is planned to help people whose destination is not Galway City Centre.


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    #925
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I see you've taken on IWH's approach of ignoring the point ... and instead stuck your fingers in your ears while muttering la la la la la la.
    SeanW wrote: »
    why bother with a bypass - it would be far better to abolish school



    For some, perhaps, since it's evidently a substantial waste of time and resources.


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Galway have a park and ride, there's an average usage of 60 vehicles per day including a match day P&R where it was full to the stadium over 6 weeks.

    Can we have less of the BS that won't work in Galway please?

    what_traffic wrote: »
    Nope - that's the point I was hinting at. P&R won't work in Galway because it cannot compete with all the cheap de facto free car parking in the city provided facilitated by Galway City Council and AGS.


    FYP. ;)

    The utility of P&R, public transport, walking and cycling are all undermined by the way in which car use and car dependence are promoted and facilitated in Galway. Rampant illegal parking is a case in point.

    Galway City is allegedly choked with unavoidable traffic congestion, the primary solution to which is a bypass, or so the dominant discourse would have us believe.

    And yet the cars keep coming in their thousands every school day, to take just one example, many travelling relatively short distances and then driving up on the footpaths outside schools to take over pedestrian space so Jack and Sophie don't have to suffer the horrific depredations of a walk longer than a few metres.

    Same applies to large events such as matches in Pearse Stadium (on 19th May last, for example, as photos show). Galway City is a traffic-choked nightmare because there's no bypass, we're told, so let's try to get as close as we can to the stadium and drive up on the footpaths and cycle lanes to park there. It's handy, it's free and it saves shoe leather in these recessionary times. What's not to like?

    260756.jpg

    260755.jpg

    260754.jpg


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    #926
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Again, your post appears to have no point, other than pathetic attempts to insult under the radar and your now ever present, never funny "fixing". This isn't AH.


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    #927
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    A problem in general for Ireland is doing things halfarsed and then you have people claiming the things don't work.

    Park and ride in Galway as is currently being attempted is nothing like the Dutch example I gave.

    The cycle tracks in Galway meanwhile are some of the worst in the country. The network seems to be overall poorer than in Dublin.


    MYOB wrote: »
    Again, your post appears to have no point, other than pathetic attempts to insult under the radar and your now ever present, never funny "fixing". This isn't AH.

    It seems to have one fairly clear point: how can traffic management succeed when there's large-scale illegal parking and little or no enforcement.


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    #928
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    For some, perhaps, since it's evidently a substantial waste of time and resources.

    And what has this cac to do with a BYPASS?


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    #929
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    They should have sold the bypass as a 20 lane cycle track and viewing area for bog cotton, the crusties would have come on board and we would probably have got a 100% grant for it. Then open it up to cars and tell them to feck off!!


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    #930
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    They should have sold the bypass as a 20 lane cycle track and viewing area for bog cotton, the crusties would have come on board and we would probably have got a 100% grant for it. Then open it up to cars and tell them to feck off!!

    The petrol heads would have objected saying cyclists should not get anything on till they follow the rules of the road.

    They would have said this while their typing on their phones while driving at 60 in a 50 zone... or maybe while parked half on a footpath and half on a cycle lane.

    antoobrien wrote: »
    And what has this cac to do with a BYPASS?

    It sounds like a discription of the bypass!
    monument wrote: »
    Galway is notable for having almost nothing west of it -- no major or notable urban area. What? Outside of the city's continuous urban area (or what counts for such in Galway), only 20,000 people in about 1,500km²?

    Amazing nobody has replied to this.

    If the above is even half right it would seem local to mid-distance traffic is what needs fixing.

    Upgrading the inner bypass / ring road / whatever, and beefing up walking, cycling, and public transport would seem to be the way to go.
    Carawaystick wrote: »
    What is the annual rainfall in Gronnigen?
    And how many days of rain are there there?

    Had a quick look at adverage number of wet days and there only seems to be a marginal diffrence.

    I live in Ballina where rain on par or worse than Galway and rain really down the list of problems compared to road conditions.

    In any case, the main problems with rain are poor road surfaces / drainage and poor driving getting worse with the rain. A bigger "problem" is wind -- but that's a problem in some of the best cycling cities and the wind issue would also be less noteworthy with decent cycle paths which are not tiny or just painted on footpaths.


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    #931
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    monument wrote: »
    The petrol heads would have objected saying cyclists should not get anything on till they follow the rules of the road.

    They would have said this while their typing on their phones while driving at 60 in a 50 zone... or maybe while parked half on a footpath and half on a cycle lane.




    It sounds like a discription of the bypass!



    Amazing nobody has replied to this.

    If the above is even half right it would seem local to mid-distance traffic is what needs fixing.

    Upgrading the inner bypass / ring road / whatever, and beefing up walking, cycling, and public transport would seem to be the way to go.



    Had a quick look at adverage number of wet days and there only seems to be a marginal diffrence.

    I live in Ballina where rain on par or worse than Galway and rain really down the list of problems compared to road conditions.

    In any case, the main problems with rain are poor road surfaces / drainage and poor driving getting worse with the rain. A bigger "problem" is wind -- but that's a problem in some of the best cycling cities and the wind issue would also be less noteworthy with decent cycle paths which are not tiny or just painted on footpaths.

    I'm going to smash my head of the ****ing wall! We're being preached at by someone who lives in Ballina who dosent have to use our road network every day. This country is in the toilet because we listen to those who's concern it's not and not to those who's concern it is!!!


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