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Spiritual healing: Real or not?

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  • 23-08-2012 11:18pm
    #1
    childsplay
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭


    I've always been found the whole business of spiritual healers a curious thing. They claim to be able to feel/see/be aware of energy fields that surround us all and to have the ability to use these to heal people. I am not entirely sure that I buy that but I remain open minded. What does anyone else think?


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    #2
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    I personally don't believe in it. Given that the human body & brain is based on electricity, it's probable we generate a tiny electro-magnetic field around us alright...but the fact others say they can manipulate it is what I don't believe.

    Big placebo affect going on I'd say as some of these 'healers' are very gifted in the art of social engineering.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As above, there is an awful lot to be said for the power of suggestion.
    People have died after believing themselves to be healed of conditions.
    Others are blamed for their lack of faith.
    Those I know who have been "healed" really didn't have anything that a bit of time, or a redirection of focus in their lives, wouldn't have sorted out anyway. Things including an asthmatic who hadn't had an attack in 15 years "suddenly" not needing his inhaler, and born again Christians cured of depression or addictions.


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    #4
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Through history there was plenty of "miracle cures" etc.
    They ones that were proven to work then became known as ...medicine.

    The rest... ;)

    So when assessing whether anything is worthwhile or not, check the evidence.
    No proof means no good!!!


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    #5
    snafuk35
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    childsplay wrote: »
    I've always been found the whole business of spiritual healers a curious thing. They claim to be able to feel/see/be aware of energy fields that surround us all and to have the ability to use these to heal people. I am not entirely sure that I buy that but I remain open minded. What does anyone else think?

    It's complete rubbish.


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    #6
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,238 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There are two effects going on here, the Placebo effect, but also the 'nocebo' effect

    Most people are familiar with the Placebo effect, where people can self report a reduction in symptoms when they have not actually received the treatment they thought they were getting.

    The Nocebo effect is basically the opposite, where people can report symptoms of illnesses that they don't actually simply on the suggestion that they have the illness

    Eg, the 'doctor' tells you that you might have a stomach disorder, suddenly you find yourself having more stomach aches and bowel problems. If the doctor tells you the test results are back and it's all clear, your stomach symptoms no longer appear.


    When someone goes to see a 'spiritual healer', the first part of the consultation is the 'healer' telling you all about all the toxins you have inside you and that your energy pathways are blocked and you are suffering from all of these negative effects etc. This primes the patient to think about all headaches and pains and every day complaints that pretty much everyone experiences on a regular basis. They then spend the rest of the consultation putting you into a relaxed state and telling you that all these pains are going to go away.

    When the patient comes out after a treatment, they feel good and are comparing their short term feelings of wellbeing with the Nocebo induced feelings of regular pain from before the treatment.

    In reality the 'spiritual healer' does nothing more than a stage performer does when he performs a magic trick. He directs your attention. He first tells you to look at a target (sets your initial condition(you feel sick)) and tells you that something is going to happen (sets your expectations) and then he misdirects your attention (waves his hands about or lights candles or whatever the alleged treatment is), makes the change (resets your expectations, now you're going to feel healthy) and voilla, magic


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    #7
    childsplay
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭childsplay


    Akrasia wrote: »
    There are two effects going on here, the Placebo effect, but also the 'nocebo' effect

    Most people are familiar with the Placebo effect, where people can self report a reduction in symptoms when they have not actually received the treatment they thought they were getting.

    The Nocebo effect is basically the opposite, where people can report symptoms of illnesses that they don't actually simply on the suggestion that they have the illness

    Eg, the 'doctor' tells you that you might have a stomach disorder, suddenly you find yourself having more stomach aches and bowel problems. If the doctor tells you the test results are back and it's all clear, your stomach symptoms no longer appear.


    When someone goes to see a 'spiritual healer', the first part of the consultation is the 'healer' telling you all about all the toxins you have inside you and that your energy pathways are blocked and you are suffering from all of these negative effects etc. This primes the patient to think about all headaches and pains and every day complaints that pretty much everyone experiences on a regular basis. They then spend the rest of the consultation putting you into a relaxed state and telling you that all these pains are going to go away.

    When the patient comes out after a treatment, they feel good and are comparing their short term feelings of wellbeing with the Nocebo induced feelings of regular pain from before the treatment.

    In reality the 'spiritual healer' does nothing more than a stage performer does when he performs a magic trick. He directs your attention. He first tells you to look at a target (sets your initial condition(you feel sick)) and tells you that something is going to happen (sets your expectations) and then he misdirects your attention (waves his hands about or lights candles or whatever the alleged treatment is), makes the change (resets your expectations, now you're going to feel healthy) and voilla, magic

    What a good answer. well thought out. I must say that I agree with you. I do think that is all a smoke and mirrors affair.


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    #8
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    In a recent case in the USA, a couple have been accused of causing the death of their son by refusing him surgery after he was diagnosed with a ruptured appendix, saying that they had faith that G*d would effect a cure.

    The young man died in the most appalling agony of peritonitis a couple of weeks later.

    This is the second time that they have refused much-needed, if not vital and life-saving medical intervention and caused the death of a child.

    tac


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    #9
    selenawolf
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭selenawolf


    I'm not sure but even if it helps as part of the placebo effect. It is worth it.

    Mind is a powerful thing. Read up Napoleon Hill.


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    #10
    selenawolf
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭selenawolf


    It is stupid to refuse medical treatment if the disease is acute.


    Spiritual healing is best used with together with conventional medicine.


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    #11
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    selenawolf wrote: »
    Spiritual healing is best used with together with conventional medicine.

    What, so you can attribute the healing from functional medicine to 'spiritual healing'?


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    #12
    selenawolf
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭selenawolf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    What, so you can attribute the healing from functional medicine to 'spiritual healing'?

    No but if I was sick, I would do whatever it takes to heal. It is a pissing contest about who I think is better, I will try anything to GET better.


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    #13
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    selenawolf wrote: »
    No but if I was sick, I would do whatever it takes to heal. It is a pissing contest about who I think is better, I will try anything to GET better.

    And thats how these charlatans make a living :)

    In my opinion, its total bollox. If there is placebic value in it then fine, but I'm not about to let a placebo cost me money :)


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    #14
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    selenawolf wrote: »
    No but if I was sick, I would do whatever it takes to heal. It is a pissing contest about who I think is better, I will try anything to GET better.

    Grand, well... the next time you are ill - just send me a message. I'll send you some healing over the internet for the great price of only €999.


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    #15
    selenawolf
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭selenawolf


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Grand, well... the next time you are ill - just send me a message. I'll send you some healing over the internet for the great price of only €999.


    sure. if you are (un)ethical enough to steal from the sick:D


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    #16
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    selenawolf wrote: »
    sure. if you are (un)ethical enough to steal from the sick:D

    That's the case with any 'spiritual healer'.


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    #17
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    selenawolf wrote: »
    sure. if you are (un)ethical enough to steal from the sick:D

    Not a business I'd associate ethics with really, spiritual healing/medium-ship


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    #18
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Give me money and I will HOPE you get better!!

    In fact, to show you how sincere I am I'll give you the first HOPE for free.

    In fact, everybody on boards tonight...
    I hope you stay healthy.


    Tomorrow I'm charging though! ;)


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    #19
    EZ24GET
    Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭EZ24GET


    When my cousin was diagnosed with a rae form of cancer her oncologist spread his hands in a shrug and said " if you had got here sooner..."
    He said the cancer was at least a stage four and probably higher. He also said it metastasized quickly. He treated her with chemo and radiation, although he told us this particular cancer did not respond well to either. We prayed, we asked our whole town to pray. Before all the scheduled treatments had been done the cancer was gone. The doctor was overjoyed and he told my cousin not to thank him it was God that saved her. I don't believe you should not seek medical advice and treatment but I do believe prayer is an important tool in healing.


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    #20
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    EZ24GET wrote: »
    but I do believe prayer is an important tool in healing.

    Not to offend your beliefs in any way, but when you say prayer is important, do you mean thats for a sense of hope its important? Or important so that God can help? If its the latter, to which God do you refer because there are many Gods worshiped by many different societies...


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    #21
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    It's important to have positive energy going through your body and mind. If your mind is one way, the body will follow. O


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    #22
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Stereomaniac wrote: »
    It's important to have positive energy going through your body and mind. If your mind is one way, the body will follow. O

    Define 'positive energy'. I agree with positive thinking absolutely, but I've met one or two people who were ravaged by cancer & died despite being the most positive thinking people I've known. I'm not convinced there's a supernatural/mysterious side to it all


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    #23
    Star Lord
    Registered Users Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Define 'positive energy'. I agree with positive thinking absolutely, but I've met one or two people who were ravaged by cancer & died despite being the most positive thinking people I've known. I'm not convinced there's a supernatural/mysterious side to it all

    To my mind, it's hope. If people have hope, then they fight it, and it really can help. I've seen people just give up many times in the past, and once they did, it's like their body stopped trying to fight it.


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    #24
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    DamoElDiablo wrote: »
    To my mind, it's hope. If people have hope, then they fight it, and it really can help. I've seen people just give up many times in the past, and once they did, it's like their body stopped trying to fight it.

    Yeah thats kinda how I see it too, to me its all in the mind as opposed to other 'energies' or a religious aspect. But again I respect other peoples right to believe what they choose to too :)


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    #25
    EZ24GET
    Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭EZ24GET


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Not to offend your beliefs in any way, but when you say prayer is important, do you mean thats for a sense of hope its important? Or important so that God can help? If its the latter, to which God do you refer because there are many Gods worshiped by many different societies...

    i wouldn't claim to know how it works, in this case I think the majority were Christians. I have seen it happen in several cases. I would be interested in knowing if other religions, worshiping other gods have seen miraculous healings from prayer?


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    #26
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    selenawolf wrote: »
    It is stupid to refuse medical treatment for a disease.


    Spiritual healing is best used with actual medicine.
    Made some minor adjustments. Hope this is OK?


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    #27
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Stereomaniac wrote: »
    It's important to have positive energy going through your body and mind. If your mind is one way, the body will follow. O
    Not entirely. I'm imagining at the moment that I look like Brad Pitt. No result.

    While I accept with no reservation that depression and other conditions often result in a negative somatic manifestation, it does not automatically follow that the reverse is true. If I'm an incredibly positive fecker who takes no excercise, smokes, and eats chips all day, an incredibly positive fecker with bad skin and a big belly I will likely become.,,


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    #28
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    EZ24GET wrote: »
    I would be interested in knowing if other religions, worshiping other gods have seen miraculous healings from prayer?

    I've no doubt they do, & they're as thankful to whatever deity they worship, as any Christian would be to God.

    To me it seems if there is a higher power, or powers, its we here on Earth who got it wrong, & dismiss all the other major religions, feeling our own is the one true faith. Perhaps, they're all correct, & its just different interpretations of the same thing? Or perhaps, they're all equally man made, spawning different practices because they were created essentially in differing cultures? I don't know if we'll ever really know for sure :)


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    #29
    GullibleOne
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭GullibleOne


    EZ24GET wrote: »
    i wouldn't claim to know how it works, in this case I think the majority were Christians. I have seen it happen in several cases. I would be interested in knowing if other religions, worshiping other gods have seen miraculous healings from prayer?
    are there medical records and surprised doctors in all the cases. In your previous post you said the doc said it was God. Have you seen medical records where that person was said by doctors to be not going to get better ?

    has the account in your previous been publishe in a medical journal?


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    #30
    Jezek
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Jezek


    I think a belief in faith healers has an overall negative effect on society. Some people will try it if they 'have nothing to lose', but of course they are losing time (very valuable at end of life), money ( could be valuable to loved ones) and they are also being given false hope. They are also boosting these charlatans' reputations and accounts, and generally help to promote the idea that these things are real. This might in extreme conditions lead to people not resorting to medicine and dying/getting hurt. Grand if it's your own body, but sometimes children can get mixed up in these situations.


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    #31
    Leadamp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭Leadamp


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I personally don't believe in it. Given that the human body & brain is based on electricity, it's probable we generate a tiny electro-magnetic field around us alright...but the fact others say they can manipulate it is what I don't believe.

    Big placebo affect going on I'd say as some of these 'healers' are very gifted in the art of social engineering.

    That is exactly what I think. I'm a somewhat spiritual person but I don't think personally that people can manipulate your aura or whatever they call it.


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