School bus driver foul language

Hannaho · 17-10-2012 2:28am #1

Hi! Need some comments/advice.

My sister made a complaint to the boss of our school bus driver that he was insisting the children got of the bus when he arrieved early. Her chidlren are 7 and 9. My sister asked his boss to ask him to keep the children on the bus if he was early. This seemed to have sparked huge anger in the guy and he is has since been verbally abusive to other kids about my sister, which was reported to her children, e.g. that fu....king bitch, that fuc....ing asshole, referring to my sister. My sister rang the boss up again, but the verbal abuse continued. The next day, my sister's childminder was brining the children to school and she asked the bus driver what time she would collect them, he said, 'the same ****ing time as always' - there were several children on the bus on this occasion. Then, m sister was talking to another parent one day outside the school, when she was collecting the chidlren herself, the bus driver came along in his minibus and became tooting the horn aggressively at my sister. My sister as in no way in his way, however, the bus driver said to another parent who went over to see what was wrong with him that my sister was 'always in his ****ing way'. Then a couple of days later, my sister was sitting in her care outside the school, and he came over, completely unsolicited, and started telling my sister that he was a victim in all this, that her son (aged 7) had insulted him - apparently some of the junior infants had been saying that the bus driver had no hair, and my nephew piped up and said that he could see he had quite a lot of hair, which was an accurate observation. Anyway, my sister told him to get away from her car as she felt intimidated by him due to previous behaviour, however he refused to move. When my sister became annoyed with him, he said he could see how the children were from how she was, and that she was a typical single mother - the kids are well-behaved kids and there have been no issues with their behaviour on the bus.

My sister complainted to the bus company and to the school bus inspector and told them that she wasn't going to tolerate this behaviour from the driver anymore, and that she felt intimidated by it. She gave them the names of both witnesses which they have refused to approach. The bus comany didn't even have the courtesty to return her call. They tood the bus driver off for one day, and returned him the next without telling her. As mentioned, the school bus inspector refused to even contact the witnesses my sister had to this behaviour, i.e. her childminder and the other parent. Also the school completely backed the bus driver's behaviour. Now my sister is afraid to put the children back on the bus as she feels the guy has anger issues and is unstable. My sister contacted the Gardai and made a complaint but they are not sure if it is within their remit. She also thought about contacting social services as his behaviour breaches Children's First Guidelines, and would come under psychological/emotional abuse.

Please, if anyone has any thoughts on it, we would really appreciate advice. The complaints to the Bus Comapny and the School Bus Inspector were all verbal. Also, now they have threatened to change the route the bus goes, so that the children could potentially be dropped off in a ver lonely spot. My sister is not local in this town, and moved there three years ago. She feels a bit ganged up on, and cannot understand why this complaint has not been taken seriously by the school, the bus compnay, the school bus inspector etc.

Advice please!!!

Lapin · 17-10-2012 3:19am

Name and shame.

LXFlyer · 17-10-2012 7:25am

Anything like this needs to be dealt with in writing. Verbal complaints aren't worth anything.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-10-2012 8:04am

lxflyer wrote: »

Anything like this needs to be dealt with in writing. Verbal complaints aren't worth anything.

+1 make sure you register your letters.

Sponge Bob · 17-10-2012 8:18am

school bus service is run by bus eireann. letter to Varadkar. I have heard of schools jnsisting that certain drivers in private companies were not on their school runs (unstable or unsuitable or both)..at least in Galway.

foggy_lad · 17-10-2012 9:56am

Sounds like a private arrangement with the school and this company?

The national transport authority are the people to contact about this.

17-10-2012 8:01pm

Hannaho wrote: »

Please, if anyone has any thoughts on it, we would really appreciate advice.
...
She feels a bit ganged up on, and cannot understand why this complaint has not been taken seriously by the school, the bus compnay, the school bus inspector etc.

Well firstly, complain in writing, as already said they should be registered letters. Keep a copy of each letter, with the receipt of postage attached.

Secondly, your complaint should be about his language around children. All the he said/she said stuff about him having anger issues probably isn't doing your sister any favours. To be honest, even from your side of the story she doesn't come across the best (I'm not trying to start an argument about your sister, I just mean it could help to stick to cold hard facts, i.e. he used hugely inappropriate language in front of the children in his bus).

Thirdly, advise your sister to log all incidents in a file. It could turn out to be very handy in these situations.

dowlingm · 17-10-2012 8:09pm

If the company is unionised, any complaint not made in writing may not be able to be used for discipline. Now, his boss should have mentioned that if this is the case.

Assuming this is part of the mainstream BE-coordinated scheme I would write to the regional office (maybe ring up first and ask who the letter should be addressed to) with a copy to the Department of Education School Transport Scheme office.

Hannaho · 22-10-2012 10:12pm

Hi! Everyone, thanks for your advice and comments on this situation. Re. th current position. My sister went back to the Gardai and said that the witnesses would now make a statement re what happened, and that her 11 year old daughter acutally heard the driver swear at the childminder. She had also said she was upset to hear her friends in school say that the bus driver had called her mother an f....ing bitch and an f.....ing asshole.

(Sorry don't know how to undo the underline). The Gardai started to really take it seriously when they heard that her 11 year old daughter had heard this sorth of language first hand.

Anyway, fast forward two or three days, the school had allegedly approached one of the witnesses and asked them not to stand by my sister's complaint (another parent). And the other witnesses, the childminder, knew the owners of the local bus company very well, and said she didn't want to upset them, or to make anyone lose their job. My sister didn't want anyone to lose their job, she just wanted to emphasise that this sort of language is completely inappropriate around primary school children, some of whom are 5/6 years old on the bus, and that it was not appropriate for anyone to make such comments, e.g. fu....king bithch, fu...king asshole, in relation to the parent of any child on the bus.

Apparently, no one could really see what my sister was upset about at all. Even the Bus Inspector tried dumb it down, and asked by sister if she was sure that the word 'fecking' and not 'fu.....ing' had been heard - my sister was adamant about this, as was her 11 year old daughter.

The Bus Inspector and the Bus Company Onwer only agreed to talk to the driver when my sister said she had approached the Gardai and they were willing to take a statement from her, her 11 year old daughter, and any other witness that was willing to come forward. My sister had also mentioned reporting the incident to the HSE. The bus driver has apparently agreed not to use foul language in front of the children again, not to make derogratory marks about my sister or any other parent in the children's hearing, and not to approach my sister or any other parent but to put complaints through the proper channels in the bus company.
,
However, now there is a really bad atmosphere between the school, who appeared to completely support the driver and bus company, and the other parent who witnessed one of the incidents, and the parents of the other children who heard the driver call my sister an f.....ing bitch and an f.....king asshole. My sister is obviously upset about this. I have no more advice for her, but wonder if anyone else here would have another way of looking at things or could offer some alternative perspective on things.

Thanks again.

Sponge Bob · 23-10-2012 12:42am

If the school are being assholes, write to the Chairperson of the Board of Management...who may not support the principal at all on the matter.

Sounds to me like the driver is not a fit and proper person to mind kids, if you leave him in contact with kids because of your inaction then let it be on your head.

foggy_lad · 23-10-2012 1:04am

Check that the driver has been Gardai vetted!

schemingbohemia · 23-10-2012 10:33am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Sounds like a private arrangement with the school and this company?

The national transport authority are the people to contact about this.

They're not. If it's Bus Éireann running it, it's them first then the Department of Education.

If it's a private hire situation (most likely if not the above) then it's the operators of the service.

foggy_lad · 23-10-2012 12:32pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They're not. If it's Bus Éireann running it, it's them first then the Department of Education.

If it's a private hire situation (most likely if not the above) then it's the operators of the service.

Surely anyone operating a regular scheduled bus service whether express(way), stage carriage or down to the local schools twice a day must be licensed by the NTA? Does it not follow than that complaints about the service should be directed at the NTA just as if it were a taxi providing the service.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/bus/

Licensing of Public Bus Passenger Services

Under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, the National Transport Authority has taken over the regulation of public bus passenger services. These services were previously regulated by the Department of Transport under the Road Transport Act 1932. The Act obliges all operators to be licensed if they are providing public bus passenger services and is applied equally to both private and state companies. Public Service Obligation (PSO) services covered by Public Service Contracts (PSC) do not fall within the licensing system.

schemingbohemia · 23-10-2012 1:07pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely anyone operating a regular scheduled bus service whether express(way), stage carriage or down to the local schools twice a day must be licensed by the NTA? Does it not follow than that complaints about the service should be directed at the NTA just as if it were a taxi providing the service.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/bus/[/QUOTE]

Given the "supervisor" mentioned in the OP it would seem that it's a Bus Éireann run service which the NTA were specifically excluded from having anything to do with.

Legislation is here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0037/index.html

School transport is specifically excluded from the definition of "public bus passenger service" that requires a licence.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 23-10-2012 1:12pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Check that the driver has been Gardai vetted!

Why is nobody else saying this in the thread.
Surely anybody working in close proximity to children would have to be cleared by the Gardai.
A lot simpler than replies saying to get onto Minister Varadkar!

Del2005 · 23-10-2012 5:32pm

When I was doing my Driver CPC for buses one of the questions was about children on buses. IIRC it's illegal to remove a child from a bus.

Just get her kids to sit on the bus till she arrives, perhaps with a Dictaphone handy.

Going Forward · 23-10-2012 8:00pm

Del2005 wrote: »

When I was doing my Driver CPC for buses one of the questions was about children on buses. IIRC it's illegal to remove a child from a bus.

Just get her kids to sit on the bus till she arrives, perhaps with a Dictaphone handy.

The driver is not a baby sitter either.
The responsibility is on the minder or parent to collect their child- if the bus is often 10 minutes early, then be mature and be there for that time.

Consider that HE may not want to be in any situation where he is stopped parked with children on board.

Obviously he should not have used foul language. Had it been a once off aberration, I may have dismissed it, anyone can make a mistake, but this seems ongoing.

The inspector should give a formal warning to the owner.

As for Garda vetting, the driver may be vetted ok, but still be a lout!

Del2005 · 24-10-2012 8:52am

Going Forward wrote: »

The driver is not a baby sitter either.
The responsibility is on the minder or parent to collect their child- if the bus is often 10 minutes early, then be mature and be there for that time.

People have jobs and the runs are timetabled so they can be meet. Where does the OP draw the line, arrive an hour early and sit by the road waiting for the bus? Still doesn't negate the fact that, IIRC, it's illegal to remove a child from a bus.

Going Forward wrote: »

Consider that HE may not want to be in any situation where he is stopped parked with children on board.

He has no option, he's driving a bus full of children and can't kick them off to get home early for a cup of tea. If he sticks to his timetable he won't have to be stopped with children on board. If he's completing the run faster than the timetable he needs to inform people of this and publish a revised timetable.

Going Forward · 24-10-2012 11:21am

Del2005 wrote: »

People have jobs and the runs are timetabled so they can be meet. Where does the OP draw the line, arrive an hour early and sit by the road waiting for the bus? Still doesn't negate the fact that, IIRC, it's illegal to remove a child from a bus.

He has no option, he's driving a bus full of children and can't kick them off to get home early for a cup of tea. If he sticks to his timetable he won't have to be stopped with children on board. If he's completing the run faster than the timetable he needs to inform people of this and publish a revised timetable.

The route is not scheduled to fit around the childminder's schedule.

Common sense dictates that if someone knows that the driver has a habit of being early some days for various reasons, for example, schools finishing a few minutes early, students missing thereby not having to complete unnecessary sections of the route etc, they must anticipate this. It's called responsible parenting.

Drivers do not necessarily want to be left in any potentially vulnerable situations, no more than most parents would want their children left sitting there, the last ones to be collected.

No mention from the OP as to whether the persons scheduled to collect the children can or cannot be more flexible in their times.

Mrs OBumble · 24-10-2012 1:28pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely anyone operating a regular scheduled bus service whether express(way), stage carriage or down to the local schools twice a day must be licensed by the NTA? Does it not follow than that complaints about the service should be directed at the NTA just as if it were a taxi providing the service.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/bus

I don't think that applies if it's a private hire, organised by the school.

In that case, it's not a public bus service. Rather, it's a private service specifically for the people that the school say it's for.

foggy_lad · 24-10-2012 2:01pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't think that applies if it's a private hire, organised by the school.

In that case, it's not a public bus service. Rather, it's a private service specifically for the people that the school say it's for.

Afaik it must still be licensed because it is a regular scheduled service rather than a one off trip.

schemingbohemia · 24-10-2012 4:03pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it must still be licensed because it is a regular scheduled service rather than a one off trip.

Have another read of the legislation.

Hannaho · 24-10-2012 6:31pm

Hi! All, thanks for your replies. I'm glad that people don't think the sort of language the bus driver used around my sister's children and the children on the bus is ok. My sister and her children were most hurt by the remarks made about their mother in front of other kids, e.g. that she was a 'fuc...ing asshole, and a fuc....ing bitch.

My sister finally complainted to the regional services manager, saying that she had already contacted the Gardai and made her concerns know. She also stated that the bus driver could be reported to the HSE. It was only then that they took any notice of her. However, the school completely took the side of the bus driver, with some of the parents and the BOM now not talking to my sister. I explained to my sister that this was small town Ireland, that they all knew each other for the last 30/40 years, knew each other's father's/mother's etc. and wouldn't go against a local person even if they were wrong. My sister, not being a local, and only living there for 4 years was aghast and thought we had moved beyond this given all the abuse scandals against children, but I don't think so.

Thanks again for all your comments. If any of you have any helpful advice for my sister on how to deal with being cold shouldered by the other parents, that would be great, as she is very hurt by the whole incident.

Hannaho · 17-11-2012 1:19am

Hi! all, just wanted to update on what happened and to get an opinoin.

Bus Eireann only put the Inspector on twice and refused to reply to my sister's registered letters to them.

In the meantime, an ex garda friend of the family who knows the bus driver said he was a well know to use foul language and to fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. He also felt this bus driver was not suited to driving a bus full of children.

Other parents previously had found the driver to be agressive.

However, this is Ireland, and no one seems to want to back up someone who complains.

Just yesterday, my sister got a letter from the Board of Management saying they weren't responsible for the bus and not to contact them again re it - though under Child Protection Regs, we all have a duty of care to children if we see or hear something abusive in relation to this.

My sister has pointed this out to the BOM, and to Bus Eireann, but the Inspector said it was only physical abuse that counted!

Anyway yesterday, my sister got a letter from Chair Person of BOM, a priest, stating that the BOM were not impressed with the manner in which this issue had been addressed by my sister, adn that she demonstrated a total lack of respect in the matter!

My sister at no time shouted at screamed at them. She sent the principal an email stating that she found the bus driver's lanaguage abusive in front of young children, and was very hurt, as were her children, that he called her a f....ing asshole, and a f....king bitch. My sister also said in her email that she really didn't see how her son's remark that the bus driver had lots of hari (other children were apprently saying he hadone), could have sent the driver into such a rage. She also said that other parents had found this man aggressive and that a friend of hers, an ex garda, had verified this.

My sister subsequently reported what happened to the Gardai who were very supportive, but she didn't want to take it further with them. She finally reported the incident to the HSE on the advice of a social worker and informed the principal and BOM of this.

So, can anyone shed light on why the Priest has deemed her approach to be totally disrespectful/inappropriate etc.? Would really welcome some different perspectives.

Run_to_da_hills · 17-11-2012 1:48am

Lapin wrote: »

Name and shame.

Better still get someone on board to record this foul mouthed bus driver in front of kids with a hidden cam phone and then let the footage go viral on Utube.

testarossa40 · 17-11-2012 9:50pm

And Talk to Joe on Monday - maybe some national exposure might shame the feckers into action.

the groutch · 17-11-2012 9:54pm

I'd be contacting local councillor(s), with just over a year to next local elections they'll jump through hoops to help you.

Losty Dublin · 17-11-2012 9:55pm

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! all, just wanted to update on what happened and to get an opinoin.

Bus Eireann only put the Inspector on twice and refused to reply to my sister's registered letters to them.

In the meantime, an ex garda friend of the family who knows the bus driver said he was a well know to use foul language and to fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. He also felt this bus driver was not suited to driving a bus full of children.

Other parents previously had found the driver to be agressive.

However, this is Ireland, and no one seems to want to back up someone who complains.

Just yesterday, my sister got a letter from the Board of Management saying they weren't responsible for the bus and not to contact them again re it - though under Child Protection Regs, we all have a duty of care to children if we see or hear something abusive in relation to this.

My sister has pointed this out to the BOM, and to Bus Eireann, but the Inspector said it was only physical abuse that counted!

Anyway yesterday, my sister got a letter from Chair Person of BOM, a priest, stating that the BOM were not impressed with the manner in which this issue had been addressed by my sister, adn that she demonstrated a total lack of respect in the matter!

My sister at no time shouted at screamed at them. She sent the principal an email stating that she found the bus driver's lanaguage abusive in front of young children, and was very hurt, as were her children, that he called her a f....ing asshole, and a f....king bitch. My sister also said in her email that she really didn't see how her son's remark that the bus driver had lots of hari (other children were apprently saying he hadone), could have sent the driver into such a rage. She also said that other parents had found this man aggressive and that a friend of hers, an ex garda, had verified this.

My sister subsequently reported what happened to the Gardai who were very supportive, but she didn't want to take it further with them. She finally reported the incident to the HSE on the advice of a social worker and informed the principal and BOM of this.

So, can anyone shed light on why the Priest has deemed her approach to be totally disrespectful/inappropriate etc.? Would really welcome some different perspectives.

At this stage, I would suggest that you take the discussion off of a public forum from here on in. At best it isn't giving your case any extra assistance and at worst it may come back to haunt you lest it gets in the way of any formal complaint or prosecution.

Jogathon · 17-11-2012 10:06pm

If it was me I'd wonder why your sister was continuing to go on with this. She won't win, but she has made her valid point. She would probably have been better off approaching the school in a friendly manner in the first place. She seems to have got everyone's back up and that is why I would be very slow to take everything you say at face value. I know, from working in schools, that if there was a genuine fear for children's safety in regards to him, then he would be out of that job so fast. I don't agree with the cursing but to report this guy to the gardai and the H.S.E. and his employers just seems like a pretty lunatic over-reaction.

17-11-2012 10:17pm

Hannaho wrote: »

Just yesterday, my sister got a letter from the Board of Management saying they weren't responsible for the bus and not to contact them again re it - though under Child Protection Regs, we all have a duty of care to children if we see or hear something abusive in relation to this.

I don't understand why your sister doesn't stick with the HSE. She's been informed that they're the people to contact, and that the board of management aren't.

My sister has pointed this out to the BOM, and to Bus Eireann, but the Inspector said it was only physical abuse that counted!

To be honest while I think the incident shouldn't have happened, I don't think it would even count as verbal abuse.

Anyway yesterday, my sister got a letter from Chair Person of BOM, a priest, stating that the BOM were not impressed with the manner in which this issue had been addressed by my sister, adn that she demonstrated a total lack of respect in the matter!

So, can anyone shed light on why the Priest has deemed her approach to be totally disrespectful/inappropriate etc.? Would really welcome some different perspectives.

Maybe because she's taken this agenda against the board of management when she's been told she should be going to the HSE? Maybe it's because (if the way you've put your side across is the same as her way of doing it) the way the issue's been addressed has been aggressive from the outset and you seem unwilling to listen to anything the other side has to say? Or maybe because you're claiming that they're all basically corrupt? Or maybe it's the use of the term "abuse"? Or maybe you're right and they are all just terrible people backing up the bus driver just because this is Ireland.

There's a reason your sister's not making any friends, and it's not because she's addressing the issue; it's the way she's addressing it.

Hannaho · 17-11-2012 10:55pm

Hi! All, I think you are right. My sister should let it go now. She has made her point. As far as I understand it, the bus driver is behaving very differnetly than before, and there has been no more bad language on the bus. He has obviously learned his lesson too. I don't think my sister wants to take it further, I think she was just annoyed by the BOM's reaction. I can understand their reaction in a way, but I also sort of understand hers. It's a small place too, and people would have sympathy for the guy in case he lost his job over what happened. I thimk my sister is still upset that the bus driver directed his fould language directly at her, and that her children heard her described in a derogratory manner, and that the school did not seem to think there was anything wrong with this. Although there are quite a number of parents going to the BOM in this school at the moment, I think my sister should just let the issue go now. Thanks for all the advice and comments, reallly appreciatd!

School bus driver foul language

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