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Interesting Public Sector comparison with NI

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    #32
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    woodoo wrote: »
    But you can buy a tin of beans for about 11p over there or a loaf of bread for about 30p.

    Yes and then recoup the extra tax I pay via the NHS which is where you would spend your time if all you eat is that over processed crap. Some things are cheaper but not everything is and definitely not half or a third cheaper.

    I did get in and out of casualty in 90 minutes yesterday after work. That wouldn't be happening in the HSE and no charge for it either.


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    #33
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Same goes with Aldi and Lidl very cheap in comparison to dunnes and tescos..I can get a weekly shop for 3 adults and 1 under 2.yo for 80 Euro

    thought you were in Australia?


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    #34
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Last time I checked Tesco value bread was 35c. I've never bought it though so I have no idea what it's like.
    I think it's probably about 60c in Ireland versus about 50p here. The point is there seems to be this belief in Ireland that everything can be bought for buttons in the UK when the reality is prices are (in general) only slightly lower, although for some products/services (such as public transport, for example) they can be far higher.


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    #35
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kceire wrote: »
    thought you were in Australia?


    I am..just saying if I was in dublin I could do a weekly shop which I had done for the last couple of months before I went in aldi lidl for 80 quid what has that got to do with where I am?


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    #36
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I am..just saying if I was in dublin I could do a weekly shop which I had done for the last couple of months before I went in aldi lidl for 80 quid what has that got to do with where I am?

    I do the weekly shop in aldi finglas for myself, GF and one year old and its around €75. no way you can feef another adult for €5 extra.


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    #37
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kceire wrote: »
    I do the weekly shop in aldi finglas for myself, GF and one year old and its around €75. no way you can feef another adult for €5 extra.


    Yes I can.....I dont only go to aldi I also get the deals in tescos ala 3 lots of meat (chicken, steaks, mince, pork chops) for a tenner...I get two lots of these 3 meats thats the basis of 6 dinners for 20 quid..I get a big bag of spuds (sometimes cheaper in dunnes or tesco) usually a fiver, rice and pasta another fiver and then veg (big bag of onions, carrots, peppers, tomatoes) another tenner and then some sauces such as bolognaise, curry etc..On top of this I get the little fella a few cheap yogarts and some fruit..he eats mashed spuds and carrots and a bit of meat all blended up...So if you put evan another tenner on the yogarts and fruit..That comes to 50 quid leaving me 30 euros to get tioletries, washing powder, washing liquid soap (which we dont need every week) and other staples such as tea bags, bread and milk...


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    #38
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I think it's probably about 60c in Ireland versus about 50p here. The point is there seems to be this belief in Ireland that everything can be bought for buttons in the UK when the reality is prices are (in general) only slightly lower, although for some products/services (such as public transport, for example) they can be far higher.

    Thats very true although a monthly bus pass for Galway city is around €60 and in London it'll cost you £72. For that you get to bus round the whole city, you can check when the next bus is due on your phone at every stop and you get buses that actually arrive something that is shortly lacking in Galway.


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    #39
    audidiesel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The actual gross pay, when allowances such as rent allowance (€4162 per member per annum, tax free) are included will average around 45% higher than those figures.

    rent allowance in the guards is no longer tax free,hasnt been for the past few months


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    #40
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    audidiesel wrote: »
    rent allowance in the guards is no longer tax free,hasnt been for the past few months
    Point is while its part of basic pay, and is also pensionable, it's not mentioned when discussing salary scales.

    You can say a Garda starts on €27k, but in reality he/she starts on over €31k on account of rent allowance alone.


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    #41
    audidiesel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Point is while its part of basic pay, and is also pensionable, it's not mentioned when discussing salary scales.

    You can say a Garda starts on €27k, but in reality he/she starts on over €31k on account of rent allowance alone.

    but then you have to account for the extra pension levy etc aswell. i just looked at an old paycheque of mine from december i happened to have beside the bed. i actually ended up paying about 160 euro more in my pension levy than i got in the rent allowance.

    the pension levy costs more than the usc even. never realised it was that expensive until now.

    so the point is you could say the rent allowance is worth €4k per year, but you loose more than that in the pension levy.

    plus the rent allowance was brought in for two specific reasons in any case.

    1. When attested Gardai are sent to a station somewhere in the republic. they have no say where they go. i could be from wexford and get shipped up to donegal and theres nothing i could do about that. its compensation for that. thats not like a normal private/public sector job, in that there you may have to travel to work but at least youd know applying where you are gonna end up and can plan for it. gardai only find out after 1 1/2 years training where they will be stationed.

    2. the rent allowance was given to gardai as a way of giving them a seperate pay increase. as the public service is all linked on payscales, the only way the governments throughout the years could give guards a specific increase was to give them an allowance. no one else in the ps could claim that then.


    also in relation to an earlier comment made, sadly there have been plenty of gardai killed in the line of duty aswell. death on duty is not exclusive to the psni, sadly its a risk in policing worldwide. altough every member of the psni was in receipt of a duty allowence of 3000 pounds sterling per year because of extra threats (this was up till 2010, dunno for definate if still in existance, but think it is.)

    finally looking directly at my paycheque for the allowences i get. im a regular garda doing normal duties. for this i get two allowences each week which are both taxed. these are a boot allowance of 2.93 and a uniform allowance of 4.39. thats it. i get no other allowances whatsoever other than these two. the vast majority of guards working are getting the same as me.

    see point two above for the main reasons we have these allowances.


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    #42
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    audidiesel wrote: »
    i actually ended up paying about 160 euro more in my pension levy than i got in the rent allowance.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pension levy is an effort to get you to pay for some of your pension? i.e. you will get it back again (plus more) when you retire.
    audidiesel wrote: »
    so the point is you could say the rent allowance is worth €4k per year, but you loose more than that in the pension levy.
    You don't lose it, you get it back when you retire.
    audidiesel wrote: »
    gardai only find out after 1 1/2 years training where they will be stationed.
    Most gardai end up stationed where they want to be stationed, which is usually close to home. There are very few jobs (aside from teaching) where you can put in for a transfer and be stationed closed to home.
    audidiesel wrote: »
    the rent allowance was given to gardai as a way of giving them a seperate pay increase.
    Yes, and it needs to be counted as such. There are other plenty of other perks too, such as garda widows/widowers being entitled to a full social welfare pension on top of the half garda pension they receive, on top of whatever other pensions they receive from their own job.
    audidiesel wrote: »
    get no other allowances whatsoever other than these two. the vast majority of guards working are getting the same as me.
    Lots of people get no allowances at all. (I don't). My father was a garda, and he'd be the first that all in it wasn't a bad number.


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    #43
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pension levy is an effort to get you to pay for some of your pension? i.e. you will get it back again (plus more) when you retire.


    You don't lose it, you get it back when you retire.

    He was already getting his pension when he retired before the pension levy. The pension levy adds nothing to his pension, not a cent. Everyone knows the pension levy was a cut. Even Fianna Fail who implemented it.

    Its like your boss making you come in on a Saturday in addition to your weeks work but not paying you any more. When you complain he says its just you contributing more for to your wages. You would know you have been loser in that change.


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    #44
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Damien360


    audidiesel wrote: »

    finally looking directly at my paycheque for the allowences i get. im a regular garda doing normal duties. for this i get two allowences each week which are both taxed. these are a boot allowance of 2.93 and a uniform allowance of 4.39. thats it. i get no other allowances whatsoever other than these two. the vast majority of guards working are getting the same as me.

    see point two above for the main reasons we have these allowances.

    But why should you get either allowance. Both of these are provided free of charge as part of your uniform. Yes you have to clean them at your cost but so does everyone else when they have uniforms and you can bet they will not get an allowance from their employer.


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    #45
    audidiesel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    Damien360 wrote: »
    But why should you get either allowance. Both of these are provided free of charge as part of your uniform. Yes you have to clean them at your cost but so does everyone else when they have uniforms and you can bet they will not get an allowance from their employer.

    as i said in my response
    2. the rent allowance was given to gardai as a way of giving them a seperate pay increase. as the public service is all linked on payscales, the only way the governments throughout the years could give guards a specific increase was to give them an allowance. no one else in the ps could claim that then.

    those two allowences were a way to give the gardai an extra €10 a week in pay that would not then have to be paid to other members of the public service. they were brought in many many years ago to give a small targeted pay rise essentially. its just they were called boot and uniform allowance.

    both combined are worth €380.64 before tax for the entire year. so they arent really worth all that much in any case. but its a handy stick to try and beat us with if you fail to understand the whole reason behind them in the first place....


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    #46
    audidiesel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pension levy is an effort to get you to pay for some of your pension? i.e. you will get it back again (plus more) when you retire.


    You don't lose it, you get it back when you retire.

    i could easily make an argument that i already pay for my pension through the other taxes i pay. as already mentioned, the pension levy is purely a pay cut by another name. looking there my pension levy for last year came in at approx 37% of the value of my paye for the year. so essentially i was paying over a third more on top of my normal taxes. its a pay cut simple as.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    Most gardai end up stationed where they want to be stationed, which is usually close to home. There are very few jobs (aside from teaching) where you can put in for a transfer and be stationed closed to home.

    with the exception of dublin, cork, limerick and 1-2 others you have to be stationed at least 30 miles from home. im stationed over 80 miles from where i was originally living when i joined. have you any evidence of these many gardai? im just asking as if id have said that id usually be asked to show a link backing it up.

    most guards i know outside of dublin are all an hour or more from their original homes. as i said two hours in my case.

    you can put in for a transfer, but theres absolutely no guarantees it will be accepted. plus over the last year or two there have not been many transfers granted due to no chiefs wanting to loose bodies that wont be replaced.

    the majority of movements have been in the form of swaps between two guards between each other subject to local approval. but to do this you have to find someone willing to swap with you. theres many people who cant do this and have been trying to move for years.

    n97 mini wrote: »
    Yes, and it needs to be counted as such. There are other plenty of other perks too, such as garda widows/widowers being entitled to a full social welfare pension on top of the half garda pension they receive, on top of whatever other pensions they receive from their own job.

    so your going after widows? im not even going to go into debating that one.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    Lots of people get no allowances at all. (I don't). My father was a garda, and he'd be the first that all in it wasn't a bad number.

    "was" this job has changed dramatically in the last few years. over 70% of guards are on less than 6 years service. pay and conditions for those are a lot worse than what your father would have finished out on.

    this is all getting a little off topic all the same though. the initial point made was that the gardai and psni arent paid all that differently. thats true enough in both wages and allowences.


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    #47
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    woodoo wrote: »
    He was already getting his pension when he retired before the pension levy. The pension levy adds nothing to his pension, not a cent.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but was he contributing enough towards his pension to cover its costs?


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    #48
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    audidiesel wrote: »
    i could easily make an argument that i already pay for my pension through the other taxes i pay.
    But isn't that the point. All your taxes plus levy don't cover your pension?


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    #49
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    audidiesel wrote: »
    have you any evidence of these many gardai? im just asking as if id have said that id usually be asked to show a link backing it up.
    I know around dozen gardaí (family and friends), and they're all living pretty much where they want to be living, or not far from it. There is no link that proves that.
    audidiesel wrote: »
    so your going after widows? im not even going to go into debating that one.
    Why not? Garda widows/widowers are entitled to two state pensions, sometimes more. Should all state widows/widowers not get the same?
    audidiesel wrote: »
    "was" this job has changed dramatically in the last few years. over 70% of guards are on less than 6 years service. pay and conditions for those are a lot worse than what your father would have finished out on.
    With all due respect, I don't think you know anything about my father's pay and conditions.


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    #50
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    n97 mini wrote: »

    Why not? Garda widows/widowers are entitled to two state pensions, sometimes more. Should all state widows/widowers not get the same?


    Is it the Widows contributory pension? So based on stamps paid, in effect any widower can get it if the requisite stamps were paid?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #51
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Damien360 wrote: »
    But why should you get either allowance. Both of these are provided free of charge as part of your uniform. Yes you have to clean them at your cost but so does everyone else when they have uniforms and you can bet they will not get an allowance from their employer.

    Sorry, your wrong there. When you are given a uniform from your employer that you have to maintain and clean, you are entitled to increased Flat Rate Expences for this as a private sector worker.
    Expenses in Employment
    "Flat Rate Expenses" apply in certain categories of employment.

    Here are some examples of the amounts of expenses due Category of Employment Expenses Due
    Carpenter 220
    Pharmacists 450
    Nurses (Where obliged to supply and launder their own uniform) 733
    Shop Assistants 121
    School Teachers 518
    Waitress 64

    N.B.The above list is not exhaustive. Its purpose is to give you an example of the expenses due in certain categories of employment.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/circumstances/moving/sample-list-tax-credits.html
    n97 mini wrote: »
    With all due respect, I don't think you know anything about my father's pay and conditions.

    But we can assume that he retired on a much better package than todays recruits ;)


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    #52
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Gardaí have an awful lot of allowances built in that are not part of basic pay but are included for pension calculations.

    PSNI and the English Police also have an awful lot of allowances built in and not part of basic pay. I don't have a link for comparisons but I'll take my brothers word for it - he's a copper in the Met.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    But isn't that the point. All your taxes plus levy don't cover your pension?

    If I never worked a day in my life I'd get a State pension of roughly €200.
    As it stands, at current rates, I'd be getting roughly €500-550 if I were to claim my pension today. For that extra 3/350, between pension deductions and pension levy, I'm currently paying roughly 400 per fortnight. If I had the option (I don't..) I'd far prefer to be paying that money into a private fund over 20/30/40 years. I won't deny that it's a decent enough pension but the gloss has been totally wiped off it by the Pension Levy.

    What people don't seem to grasp with PS pensions is that it's todays workers that are paying the pensions of the current pensioners. When my turn comes, it's not drawn from my own pension pot but from the contributions that will be made by those still in work.

    (Not a Garda BTW, but in the Public Service.)


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    #53
    audidiesel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭audidiesel


    n97 mini wrote: »

    With all due respect, I don't think you know anything about my father's pay and conditions.

    you said he was a garda. made the assumption from the "was" there that he retired. in which case with full service he'd have been on the top of the wage scales. thats more than what 70% of gardai are on now before the levies cuts etc. not trying to be argumentitive but just to make that point.


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    #54
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but was he contributing enough towards his pension to cover its costs?

    Many Are

    Well if the government decide to ramp up PRSI, Income Tax and the USC don't let me hear you complain because they can always say its just you contributing more towards the running of the state. They may believe you don't pay enough.


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    #55
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    Going back to the local charges in NI they do not have Car Tax or VRt on cars there top vat rate is 20% not the 23% we have. this more thsn make up for the local charges


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    #56
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Farmer Pudsey wrote: »
    Going back to the local charges in NI they do not have Car Tax or VRt on cars there top vat rate is 20% not the 23% we have. this more thsn make up for the local charges

    They do have motor tax, not sure on VRT type taxes.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #57
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    K-9 wrote: »
    They do have motor tax, not sure on VRT type taxes.

    yep, they sure do, £250 to tax a BMW 530d in NI, €1,390 to tax the same car in ROI :mad:


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    #58
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    K-9 wrote: »
    They do have motor tax, not sure on VRT type taxes.
    I am sorry if I was wrong about the car tax however it is not as high as the Irish car tax but they do not have VRT


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    #59
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    kceire wrote: »
    yep, they sure do, £250 to tax a BMW 530d in NI, €1,390 to tax the same car in ROI :mad:

    ;)

    Well if you can afford a nice car like that, €20 a week shouldn't be that much of a problem, the cheaper fuel prices should help too, though not as much a difference as there used to be. You could buy a car that is cheap to tax, the new VW Diesels I believe are cheap.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #60
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    kceire wrote: »
    yep, they sure do, £250 to tax a BMW 530d in NI, €1,390 to tax the same car in ROI :mad:

    Politicians have begin quoting that Northern Ireland has Housing rates so why not us. They never mention that our road tax is much higher than theirs and they don't have to pay for bin collection or Medical care.

    The road tax on a 1.9 diesel standard family car is €600 or so. Thats more like a property tax.


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    #61
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    In RoI you can minimise motor-tax liability, or avoid it altogether. It's not practical for people in NI to move house or to do without a house altogether to achieve the same.

    I'm always amused by public servants bemoaning the tax burden, when PS pay and pensions are the second biggest head of expenditure after social welfare. I would have thought PS employees would be happier with a bigger tax burden as it supports their tenure in the PS. I think if I was still in the PS I would.


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