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Why are we all becoming socialists now?

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24567…11

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    #32
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    losthorizon wrote: »
    Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

    On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

    Are you completely nuts? Ireland doesn't have any right wing parties, and never has. Ireland has only ever done centre to centre-left. Irish society/government is very much on the left hand side of things in most regards.


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    #33
    TheBegotten
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.
    What a sterling example of an oxymoron! Besides, FF were Ireland's closest equivalent to capitalism, look where they got us. Also, socialism isn't communism socialism is the theory, communism the product it degrades to.


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    #34
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    bluewolf wrote: »
    socialising private debt that was cheered on by the state means free market capitalism has failed?
    The neoliberal model collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions - are you saying that deregulation, free movement of capital and all those other lovely articles and verses of the free market bible didn't lead to the crash, as a logical consequence? It's only massive state intervention that's kept it afloat.

    Neoliberalism, free market fundamentalism, or whatever you want to call it, is equally unworkable to communism or socialism in their pure forms. The markets, competition and individual choice have their place, but so does a duty to the greater whole, including redistribution of wealth. I'm sure that even saying that much makes me a raging pinko in some eyes, but there it is.

    What worries me is the amount of people who think that the solution to a failure of neoliberalism is ... more neoliberalism. A dose of privatisation would do us the world of good, I'm sure. Keep a fundamentally unsound system of social organisation lurching forward ... until the next crash.


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    #35
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Didn't the Catholic church nip socialism in the bud way back, by putting the fear of god into people?


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    #36
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation.

    It is because of these people that we can't. :pac::pac::pac:



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    #37
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Tax in this country is actually fairly low. We're better off than most other European countries http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

    VAT is a bit above average, but income tax is pretty low. Our corporation tax is very low and makes us a very attractive place to be for businesses, so saying that taxes are forcing businesses out is a load of BS.

    People complain if hospitals are closed and if schools are understaffed, yet the slightest mention of raising taxes and people are up in arms. It's impossible to have good public services and low taxes.


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    #38
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Well it wasn't the poor. Who work just as bloody hard to put food on the fmaily table, I might add.


    I agree, but that's not the issue you raised.



    In what way are they living the same lifestyle as someone who didn't? Generally speaking, people in professions are earning more money net and are leading more comfortable lives. Thus, your loaded question is inaccurate.



    Then why is it that it works in Scndanavia?

    Which brings me back to the question I raised very early on: how do you propose the government raises funds?
    The government doesn't need funds if private industries can do the jobs better than the government can.

    The problem with Ireland is that there is no proper industrial sector to sustain the economy here and no one is willing to set one up either because of the high taxes. Hence just increasing taxes will not fix the economy.

    Increasing taxes is only going to hurt the people who have worked hard to try to lead a decent life. If you keep increasing taxes leading to lower incomes and higher cost of living, no wonder so many young educated people want to emigrate to other countries where their education and qualification will be valued more and they can live a more comfortable life.


    Socialism doesn't work because we humans will always seek to live the more comfortable life. In Scandinavia they have managed to maintain high incomes and a high standard of living along with a high taxed society. There are many reason for this. In Norway's case, it is not a part of the EU and it has plenty of natural resources which clearly helps its economy.

    This won't work in Ireland because in Ireland even if we have any natural resources, we make very poor use of it. The government is extremely inefficient in the way it manages its resources. Also there is a lot of corruption in the government here too.

    Hence if I can find another place in the world where I can live more comfortably in the short and the long run, then that's where I'll strive to go to.

    Converting a country into a gloomy socialist state where where we all have to give away most of our earnings as taxes so that the inefficient government and the less fortunate can to function while I to sacrifice my comforts which I have worked so hard to achieve, in an idealistic world this may work. In the real world people are selfish and I care more about my comforts than my fellows.


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    #39
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

    The socialism of which you speak is mostly being availed of by our bankrupt property developers who are now being cosseted and shielded by the State entity known as NAMA. Not only are these capitalist speculators being shielded from the harsh reality of pure capitalism, but they are also drawing a wage from the Irish taxpayers, some of them claiming as much as €200,000 per anum. :mad:

    Che Guevara would be spinning in his grave. :rolleyes:


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    #40
    Ambient Occlusion
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Ambient Occlusion


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

    Generally more highly-qualified people are higher up on the payroll aren't they? In any case there's still crap like nepotism and partisan politics that contribute to today's issues.
    That's where Meritocracy comes in. Democracy should be used as a tool to achieve the conditions in which Meritocracy can succeed and then abandoned. After this, party politics should be abolished and people should be elected into positions of power based on their own merits independently. If and when we achieve a fair education system in which all citizens have equal opportunities Meritocracy should in theory operate as a better system.
    Constant scrutiny of government practise and decisions would keep them on the ball while strict rules and regulations are placed down to limit how much they can change, allowing important non-administrative aspects like culture and society to be retained.

    Of course I'm not saying it'd be perfect and no one could really know how good it is until it is put into practice, but I'd say it's worth a go. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I imagine this to be an excellent system.


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    #41
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    ^
    Highly qualified people might be higher up on the payroll but they also pay much higher taxes than the rest of the people and it is unfair that someone who has worked hard to achieve the qualifications to work in a highly skilled job should then be punished by having to give away 40% and more (all those hidden levys) of their income as taxes.
    And yes there is no denying there is significant amounts of nepotism in this country but eventually if you're crap at your job and you don't deserve to be where you are, you will be removed from your place.
    You wouldn't want to be treated by a doctor who only has his job not because of his skills but because he has strong connections in the hospital board to get him the job.


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    #42
    Ambient Occlusion
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Ambient Occlusion


    I agree that those that have worked for high salaries deserve to enjoy them within reason. Regardless the rich should pay higher tax rates (again, within reason) and also be obliged to cease their complaints about pay cuts that still leave them well-off.
    *Ahem* Pat Kenny *Ahem*


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    #43
    k.p.h
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭k.p.h


    I know people say socialism has failed in the past, and I won't deny its issues but this universe is 13.75 billion years old and earth is 4.5 billions years old while the average human age is 67.2 years. How someone has the cheek to say they own anything is beyond me.

    In the blink of an eye a civilization, less than that an individual.

    The collective is far more important.


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    #44
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Ambient Occlusion wrote: »
    Generally more highly-qualified people are higher up on the payroll aren't they? In any case there's still crap like nepotism and partisan politics that contribute to today's issues.
    That's where Meritocracy comes in. Democracy should be used as a tool to achieve the conditions in which Meritocracy can succeed and then abandoned. After this, party politics should be abolished and people should be elected into positions of power based on their own merits independently. If and when we achieve a fair education system in which all citizens have equal opportunities Meritocracy should in theory operate as a better system.
    Constant scrutiny of government practise and decisions would keep them on the ball while strict rules and regulations are placed down to limit how much they can change, allowing important non-administrative aspects like culture and society to be retained.

    Of course I'm not saying it'd be perfect and no one could really know how good it is until it is put into practice, but I'd say it's worth a go. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I imagine this to be an excellent system.

    I find it insane that the system we have now actually allows for somebody with no accountancy qualifications or any qualifications at all for that matter to become minister for finance.

    It's the main reason our government costs so much. I think each TD is allowed 3 (could be wrong on this number) full time consultants that get paid a very high wage to tell them what to do, all because they don't usually have any education relating to the area they are supposed to be looking after. Why not just hire the consultants who make all the decisions anyway and cut out the expensive middle man.

    Meritocracy isn't actually a system of government, but I do think it would vastly improve how well the government works regardless of the system in place.


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    #45
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    k.p.h wrote: »
    I know people say socialism has failed in the past, and I won't deny its issues but this universe is 13.75 billion years old and earth is 4.5 billions years old while the average human age is 67.2 years. How someone has the cheek to say they own anything is beyond me.

    In the blink of an eye a civilization, less than that an individual.

    The collective is far more important.

    As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.
    George Orwell


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    #46
    mawk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭mawk


    Chevolution wrote: »
    Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?

    not for meningitis it didn't


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    #47
    Ambient Occlusion
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Ambient Occlusion


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    It's the main reason our government costs so much. I think each TD is allowed 3 (could be wrong on this number) full time consultants that get paid a very high wage to tell them what to do, all because they don't usually have any education relating to the area they are supposed to be looking after. Why not just hire the consultants who make all the decisions anyway and cut out the expensive middle man.

    I agree with this to an extent, but I do believe that:
    (i) One person should never be given total power over anything without competent assistants.
    (ii)Consultants eradicate subjectivity, prejudice and bias more effectively


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    #48
    ascanbe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

    No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

    Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

    Ah, the fallacy of labels..
    When many people hear 'socialism' and 'tax' they automatically assume that this means that money is being appropriated through tax by the government in order to pay for infrastructural development, fund social-programs/welfare etc..
    All but the most strident libertarians will agree that there has to be a certain level of this in order for a country to function; the only discussion is about what level of tax/public spending there should be.
    But the rise in taxes in this country and others at the moment has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of a coming to prominence of what's normally regarded as a traditional 'socialist' agenda; you'll notice that despite these extra taxes, public spending on social-programs is being cut.
    The money being raised from these taxes is going somewhere else..
    The benificiaries and 'instigators' of these taxes, those with the 'ear' of the politicians, are not those that are commonly understood to benifit from 'socialsim' but are, in fact, those 'masters of the universe'/financial institutions that pose as the vanguard of 'capitalism' but are, in fact, merely leeches whose every whim is indulged by our elected officials and whose every mistake will not only be covered/'bailed-out', but will be used as an opportunity for them to appropriate even more money from the population at large.


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    #49
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Chevolution wrote: »
    Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?
    No. HTH.


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    #50
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Didn't the Catholic church nip socialism in the bud way back, by putting the fear of god into people?
    In some countries yes. In other countries, it didn't, but the system collapsed spectacularly on its own due to its own inherent weaknesses. Funny, I was just chatting to some Polish people about life under socialism earlier tonight. Stories of queueing for food, rationing, no personal freedom and pervasive surveillance by their own government (to protect the workers paradise :rolleyes:) at a time when capitalist countries were rolling in affluence and success.

    Here follows a list of every successful socialist country in human history:


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    #51
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Don't confuse socialism with communism, lads.

    Communism never works but it wouldn't do a Government any harm to incorporate a socialist bent into its policies, unless we want to end up having the same sort of stark divisions between rich and poor that we see in countries like the United States??


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    #52
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Because people are getting dumber and have listened too much to the pc brigade and left wing media.


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    #53
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

    No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

    Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?
    benway wrote: »
    Because austerity isn't working.


    Because the rich have far too great a share of the nation's resources hoarded away.

    Because the only way to set in train a meaningful recovery is to unlock those resources and put them to work, for all of our benefits.

    Because its a more rational, fairer way of organising society.

    Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

    Socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, btw. While I'm at it, neoliberal capitalism doesn't seem to be much compatible with democracy either - just look at Greece and Italy.

    The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of that vast chasm between these 2 posts.


    Centrist sell out pig I am.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #54
    Sindri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭Sindri


    micropig wrote: »
    As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.
    George Orwell

    The major civilizing force in the world is not religion, it is sex.
    Hugh Hefner.


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    #55
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    Don't confuse socialism with communism, lads.

    Communism never works but it wouldn't do a Government any harm to incorporate a socialist bent into its policies, unless we want to end up having the same sort of stark divisions between rich and poor that we see in countries like the United States??

    Socialism made us bail out the banks and encourages people into a lifestyle of living on the dole and sponging. Id rather a few rich people allowed to keep the hard earned money made rather than everyone get a free ride and waste their lives


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    #56
    Sindri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭Sindri


    K-9 wrote: »
    The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of that vast chasm between these 2 posts.


    Centrist sell out pig I am.

    Centrism isn't that bad. ;)

    Though that is a golden mean fallacy. ;)


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    #57
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    Working people paying more taxes for bailing out failed banks and geting less services, how is that socialism?


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    #58
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    wendell borton wrote: »
    Working people paying more taxes for bailing out failed banks and geting less services, how is that socialism?

    Its corporate socialism , bail out the people (dole) and the banks . Its nationalising and giving a safety net that allows wrecklessness


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    #59
    An Capall Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭An Capall Dubh


    Joseph Kony for President!!!


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    #60
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The Irish Republic is not right wing. Voting in a right wing party doesn't mean you are right wing.

    the irish republic i grew up in the late 70s/early 80s was very right wing, in fact it was easily the most socially conservative country in the western world at the time i would assume


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    #61
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    In some countries yes. In other countries, it didn't, but the system collapsed spectacularly on its own due to its own inherent weaknesses. Funny, I was just chatting to some Polish people about life under socialism earlier tonight. Stories of queueing for food, rationing, no personal freedom and pervasive surveillance by their own government (to protect the workers paradise :rolleyes:) at a time when capitalist countries were rolling in affluence and success.

    the polish lived under a communist regime controlled from mother russia

    if you want to see socialism at work in 2012 go visit one of the nordic countries


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