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iPhone snobbery in Corporate world

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    #32
    GreenWolfe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭GreenWolfe


    manual_man wrote: »
    Well in that case the apps could be launched simultaneously, since the Android version could be developed quickly once the iphone one is done. But that's not the source of most Android users complaints. It's the fact that many apps just aren't being provided to Android users full stop. Take Ballyman's example of the Irish Independent and Ulster Bank. Apps that have been out for ages, and yet don't have an Android version. I'm sorry but i reiterate my point that some companies are highly ignorant when it comes to releasing apps. I doubt any developer would turn down extra money to develop an Android version. Can you not see how people would see this as snobbish on the part of said companies

    I took a look at Ulster Bank's FAQ, and judging from the age of some of the questions they don't appear to have any specific interest in Android. If anyone does email Ulster Bank about their lack of an Android app, do be sure to tell them that NIB and AIB have Android apps out now.
    Q. Are you developing an Android, BlackBerry or Windows Mobile Banking App?

    A. We are working hard to extend the range of mobile services we offer to our customers and this will include other handset types.


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    #33
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,284 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    manual_man wrote: »
    Well in that case the apps could be launched simultaneously, since the Android version could be developed quickly once the iphone one is done.

    True, but why delay the release of one until the other is ready? Unfortunately they don't have a large team of developers that they can throw onto the project, so their aim is to minimise the length of time between the release of each app.
    manual_man wrote: »
    But that's not the source of most Android users complaints. It's the fact that many apps just aren't being provided to Android users full stop.

    I agree, and I find it frustrating myself. There have been several apps in the past couple of weeks I would have liked to download, but I'd have to get myself an iPhone to do so. Another thing that really bugs me is that the Irish Times have an App of the Week each week in The Ticket. It's always an iOS app, I can't remember ever seeing an android app listed. I expect better from them.

    And while we're on the subject of the banks and their offerings, at least Ulster Bank have got an iPhone app, Bank of Ireland haven't even managed that yet.


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    #34
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    manual_man wrote: »
    Can you not see how people would see this as snobbish on the part of said companies

    One question for you - have you much development experience in a commercial environment?


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    #35
    manual_man
    Registered Users Posts: 15,263 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    Tom Dunne wrote: »
    manual_man wrote: »
    Can you not see how people would see this as snobbish on the part of said companies

    One question for you - have you much development experience in a commercial environment?

    that's a totally irrelevant question and trying to distract from the point. it's not developers I have a bone to pick with, it's certain companies that are totally ignorant towards their customer user base. Read my previous post


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    #36
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    manual_man wrote: »
    that's a totally irrelevant question and trying to distract from the point. it's not developers I have a bone to pick with, it's certain companies that are totally ignorant towards their customer user base. Read my previous post
    Developers only do what they're paid to do.
    Companies only pay to do what they think will make them a return.

    iOS lends itself to quick development time, quick testing and a fairly well established market. You have literally, about 8 different software/hardware combinations you need to work with.
    Quick development + established market = €€€

    Android is more unfamiliar, developers will tend to cost you more because there are so few of them at present, it has a multitude of software/hardware combinations you have to account for during development and testing and the market isn't so well established (yet).
    You have three combinations to work with for one single Android handset alone:
    - vanilla Android
    - Android + vendor overlay (Samsung TouchWiz, HTC Sense etc.)
    - Android + vendor overlay + carrier overlay (Vodafone, O2, 3, Meteor branding etc.)
    You also then need to take account of the fact that not all vendor's have approved the latest version of Android and not all carrier's have approved the latest vendor release. It's more costly, time consuming and risky, frankly, and if a company doesn't want to take a risk, it won't, which I imagine is why many apps simply never make it to Android.


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    #37
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Kensington those points are rubbish. Pretty clear you have never tried android development. The opposite is actually true in most cases.

    The developer arguments are nonsense, the real reason is marketing. Many companies seem to think YOU NEED TO HAVE AN APP - it's the current fad. Most of the time they could just have a simple webpage, but INSIST on an app. It's almost as if software development didn't exist before the iphone came out. (if they really insist, just make an app that launches the browser for them \o/)

    Also android has lagged behind iphone in Ireland (marketing again), handsets didn't appear until later than other countries. Has since overtaken iphone, but many companies don't realise this.


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    #38
    BionicRasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭BionicRasher


    So this is going to be similar with Windows Phone OS (different hardware etc) too and really big companies are neglecting and alienating a lot of users by just sticking to iOS.
    It really is a poor show from companies and TBH it seems they only want to bring out iOS apps and all others are an after thought.
    Most large company execs will have a Blackberry but for some reason they dont get an app either.
    I really cannot understand why they only do iOS. Snobbery maybe or just pure out of touch with the real world


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    #39
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Blikes wrote: »
    Developing for iOS is easier for developers, Plain and simple.

    Most of the popular apps are ported to android a few months later.
    Android is much harder to develop for.

    Different OS versions
    Different screen sizes
    Some have physical keyboards
    Different buttons and button layouts from different manufacturers
    Different hardware

    Mac's suffer the same problem, All the cool applications/Programs/Games are available for the PC, Most never make it to Mac and if they do, it's months and years later!
    Surely the desktop computer example is the exact opposite of the OP's issue. Windows being the fragmented market with lots of different hardware and software combinations, but it's the platform that gets all the applications.


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    #40
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    It's nonsense. Different screensizes and versions cause NO problems in development. It is all handled quite gracefully.

    The only time you would have issues with hardware is if you were writing a high performance 3d game, this is not applicable for 99.9% of apps.


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    #41
    bd250110
    Registered Users Posts: 427 ✭✭bd250110


    For some reason it's marked as incompatible with my phone, even though my phone has an overclocked version of the same chipset in the Xperia Play (which it is compatible with) - Play has an MSM8225, mine has an MSM8225T.

    This sentence explain at least some of the delay. If you release an iOS app, it will more than likely work with any iOS device, there may be limitations on the iPad and iPod Touch due to lack of voice support, some older hardware may not have the latest sensors, such as gyro, accelerometer, etc. But most apps will run, on most hardware combinations. HOWEVER, on android, handsets can be marked incompatible for any number of obscure reasons, even the latest, greatest, high end handsets. This will inevitably lead to a high number of negative reviews in the Market, obscuring the useful reviews and gibing a (possibly) unjustified negative impression of the company.
    - Due the the huge number of hardware and software variations it can be difficult to predict how an app will perform on any given handset/software/carrier combination, again there is a risk to the companys image.
    - iOS has many developers, lots of obstacles have already been overcome from a UI and functionality standpoint, making in quicker, easier, cheaper and lower risk.
    - When companies simply port an iOS app to run on Android, there are usually issues with the app. Navigation is one that springs to mind, it looks and feels wrong to use iOS navigation on Android and performance can sometimes be an issue too.
    - Visibility on the market is an issue. Google is king of search, but search in the android market is woeful. App's have poor visibility and can be hard to find. Again this counts against developing for Android.
    - iOS users spend more on Apps, use in-App purchasing more and for larger amounts. Developers can more easily monitize from iOS, which is an obvious attraction.

    In an ideal world Android would get apps with, or very soon after iOS, but the reality is that iOS is strong and growing in the corporate world (at the expense of BB), an area of Android weakness at present, making visibility of iOS higher to those making decisions. Remember many corporate exec's will just be handed a phone one day, they will not have any choice in the matter and useless they are particularly tech-savvy are unlikely to know much about Android. Combine this with iOS being easier, cheaper, lower risk and more familiar to decision makers and you can see why iOS often gets Apps first, at least for now.


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    #42
    Minstrel27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    What annoys me is Sky Go not being available for Android here. Sky say they are working on it which is bollocks. The app is already available on Android for Sky Italia viewers.


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    #43
    george67
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭george67


    srsly78 wrote: »
    Apps aren't needed for many things in android, coz it's not crippled like the iphone. Just use browser and watch setanta/whatever off the webpage.

    Yeah flash kinda sucks, but is usable on modern androids.

    You're right i can open most websites on my nexus. My iphone wouldn't even view the Vodafone site


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    #44
    Spunk84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭Spunk84


    has boards got a android app:rolleyes:


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    #45
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Spunk84 wrote: »
    has boards got a android app:rolleyes:

    Even better, it has a non-platform specific interface:

    http://touch.boards.ie


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    #46
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    srsly78 wrote: »
    Kensington those points are rubbish. Pretty clear you have never tried android development. The opposite is actually true in most cases.

    The developer arguments are nonsense, the real reason is marketing. Many companies seem to think YOU NEED TO HAVE AN APP - it's the current fad. Most of the time they could just have a simple webpage, but INSIST on an app. It's almost as if software development didn't exist before the iphone came out. (if they really insist, just make an app that launches the browser for them \o/)

    Also android has lagged behind iphone in Ireland (marketing again), handsets didn't appear until later than other countries. Has since overtaken iphone, but many companies don't realise this.
    Dev, no. Alongside UAT, yes. Unless it's changed dramatically since early-2011, which I don't believe it has, then versioning is very much an issue.

    I've seen apps that run beautifully on one handset, but stick it on another handset and it's like a "Force close" parade in the palm of your hand. Then you've apps like Viber that simply won't run on certain Android models - at all.

    Try and get a consistent look and feel for an app on both a SGSII and a HTC Hero, say. The difference will be drastic compared to an iPhone 4 and a 3GS - despite being released around the same periods, respectively.


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    #47
    Spunk84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭Spunk84


    robinph wrote: »
    Spunk84 wrote: »
    has boards got a android app:rolleyes:

    Even better, it has a non-platform specific interface:

    http://touch.boards.ie
    Very nice


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    #48
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,850 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    EarthlyPangaea wrote: »
    I took a look at Ulster Bank's FAQ, and judging from the age of some of the questions they don't appear to have any specific interest in Android. If anyone does email Ulster Bank about their lack of an Android app, do be sure to tell them that NIB and AIB have Android apps out now.
    Ulster Bank are currently testing their Android app, and it should be released soon, although I don't know the exact date. I know people working in the areas testing it now.


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    #49
    mickoneill30
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    Something I've suspected is that a lot of users may change the user agent on their browser to make the web server think that it's a desktop browser that's hitting the server. I do that and so do a fair few of the people I know. It stops the mobile versions of sites popping up when you browse to them.
    I'm not sure if you can do that with IOS browsers.
    For an example if I go to html5test.com it detects my browser as Safari 5.0 on Mac OSx 10.6.3
    My browser is Dolphin HD on Android 2.3.3 using the desktop user agent.

    So when a company is analysing their stats they'll see that desktop browsers are number one, then IOS browsers, then Android. Given stats that say IOS hits are way more than Android hits, which platform would your company concentrate on first.

    I'm hoping that the applications that provide the stats are smart enough to differentiate between an Android & a PC desktop browser but I'm not sure, and it depends on how many people know how to change their User Agent on their Android phone. I'd guess it's at least 20% of users.


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    #50
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Kensington wrote: »
    Dev, no. Alongside UAT, yes. Unless it's changed dramatically since early-2011, which I don't believe it has, then versioning is very much an issue.

    I've seen apps that run beautifully on one handset, but stick it on another handset and it's like a "Force close" parade in the palm of your hand. Then you've apps like Viber that simply won't run on certain Android models - at all.

    Try and get a consistent look and feel for an app on both a SGSII and a HTC Hero, say. The difference will be drastic compared to an iPhone 4 and a 3GS - despite being released around the same periods, respectively.

    Your force close was due to not catching out of memory exception. Programmer error. Put a try/catch in and solved. It doesn't show on some devices coz they have more memory. Iphone doesn't even multitask so it doesn't have this problem :P

    I know this from experience releasing a multi-million dollar android project on multiple handsets.

    It's simple to get the same look on an sgs2 vs hero. You do need two different layouts but this is trivial. HTC Sense has absolutely no impact on this (aside from is using up memory, see above).

    How to easily target 99% of android handsets: target android 2.2. Don't need to target newer versions unless you need some shiny new feature like Google Wallet that noone uses yet. No android developer complains about fragmentation, only people in the media that heard from a "mate" apparently.


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    #51
    Draupnir
    Registered Users Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭Draupnir


    srsly78 wrote: »
    No android developer complains about fragmentation

    I can confirm for you, that is not the case. I have complained about fragmentation many times. You shouldn't make statements you can't back up.

    The big issues for me, as a developer, have always been the quality of the development tools for Android and the extremely poor marketplace/deployment implementation.

    I think businesses go for iPhone apps first because it is possibly easier to gain funding for them as they add significantly more marketability to a service or business than an Android app does. This is the perception of the public in general. I doubt many, if any, businesses consider the developer's feelings.


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    #52
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    You must be kidding right? Android tools are great. Java is a more mainstream language than obj-c.

    The apple tools will only run on the mac :) The android tools are all free and run on any platform.

    Your complaints about the market are out of date too, they have improved it a lot. Deployment problems are usually because of the developer not setting permissions right, or setting phone hardware requirements.

    (yeah you can run apple tools on a pc, but that's just annoying and not supported)

    Waiting for your personal experience on fragmentation. Missing try/catch I bet.


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    #53
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    srsly78 wrote: »
    yeah you can run apple tools on a pc, but that's just annoying and not supported

    I'm pretty certain you cannot submit one without a Mac


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    #54
    Atilathehun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Atilathehun


    manual_man wrote: »
    this sh1t is seriously startin to piss me off. The amount of times i'm seein a new app advertised, only available for iphone. What the fcuk is wrong with these people??? how many million android users is there worldwide??? The latest snobby gits to do this are Setanta Sports, watching the match there on telly, my ears prick as the commentator mentions the new Setanta Scores app. Available for?? You fcuking guessed it. iphone only. wànkers


    What's an iPhone:confused:


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    #55
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    The Android tools are great, not as polished as Xcode but still incredibly powerful and easy to work with, fragmentation is a small problem in that it involves some extra overhead in some cases and the different developer ROM's can cause issues with apps that are more complex like VoIP/SMSoIP apps but similar issues can happen on iOS, has Viber even started working on iOS 5 yet?


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    #56
    elimare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭elimare


    Most of the apps on the iphone store are for the iphone 4 now, which means me and my sad little Iphone 3 can't do much other than play angry birds.


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    #57
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    elimare wrote: »
    Most of the apps on the iphone store are for the iphone 4 now, which means me and my sad little Iphone 3 can't do much other than play angry birds.

    The iphone has fragmentation!?!? :eek:

    Only the latest stuff with fancy 3d graphics should need iphone 4, same with some new 3d android games. Examples: samurai showdown 2, galaxy on fire.


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    #58
    manual_man
    Registered Users Posts: 15,263 ✭✭✭✭manual_man


    Atilathehun wrote: »
    What's an iPhone:confused:

    ...

    1327314134765.jpg


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    #59
    elimare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭elimare


    srsly78 wrote: »
    The iphone has fragmentation!?!? :eek:

    Only the latest stuff with fancy 3d graphics should need iphone 4, same with some new 3d android games. Examples: samurai showdown 2, galaxy on fire.

    heh. a lot of the stuff won't upgrade cos it's now version 4 - and most of the apps I've tried installing lately (real-time dublin bus, calorie counters, etc) have all come back with a 'wrong iphone version' type message.

    ahh well, I'll just have to wait till I can upgrade... :)


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    #60
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    That doesn't sound quite right, ask about it on the apple forum.


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    #61
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I've read through this thread and would both broadly agree and disagree with many of the issues raised. My own view on why Android development is presently slower is as follows:

    Weaker Revenue Model. Android users are significantly less likely to pay for an app (conversion rate is about 5% of iPhone rate, from what I've read).

    There are a few reasons for this; demographics (Android users are more likely to be younger and with lower incomes), iTunes forces users to register a credit card, the Android Market does not and so many Android users couldn't even pay if they wanted to without going back to register a credit card (the hassle of which will stop many from bothering) and no 'culture' of paying for anything.

    As a result, paid apps are not really an option for most developers and this can naturally cause many to shy away from the platform.

    Age/Maturity. Android has not been around as long as the iPhone, which was realistically out for two years before the vast bulk of Android devices. Other than meaning that Android was behind on market share and needed to catch up, it also meant that the OS, the (buggy and poorly documented) development tools and market also had to mature from feedback in the wild.

    Of the last, it should be noted that Apple had an even bigger lead time with iTunes, which has been around since 2003.

    Limited Development Resources. Most mobile app houses are typically quite small. They've previously invested in iOS resources and so looking at covering Android too is a risk, which they have only recently begun to think viable.

    But resources cost money and time to put in place and get up to speed. Additionally, which is the best strategy for them? Separate objective-C and Java developers or multi-platform frameworks? If the latter, which one?

    So the availability of resources to port apps is a major issue.

    Fragmentation. Single biggest mistake made by Google, in it's attempt to woo opcos and manufacturers, was giving them too much rope in this department. This resulted in a dev nightmare whereby, often undocumented, incompatibilities would appear for many devices due to the various permutations of device and operator distributions - not to mention OS versions.

    Fortunately, this has improved dramatically, and at this stage is is pretty easy to write a 'one version fits all' Android release for most types of app.

    Crapware and Malware. Unfortunately the ease of entry to Android development and publishing is also a weakness. To begin with I can literally write a flaky Hello World app and publish it, and unfortunately the market is full of badly written apps, which have turned off quite a few users. Similarly, the potential for Malware turns off a lot of downloads (especially where you've some idiot dev who has lazily looked for thirty permissions for his simple app).

    Conclusion. Google made a number of mistakes at the start which didn't help Android, although it does seem to be making an effort to resolve these. However, the main issue is that Android is still playing catchup - that it has a larger market share is nowhere nearly as important as having a more mature ecosystem.

    And in this regard, I still think Android has another year or two to smooth out all the issues.


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