Wind-pumped hydro electric storage

pljudge321 wrote: »

I can't really see demand side management with EV's taking off, who's going to pay for the batteries that get worn out after 2 years instead of 10 because they are constantly being cycled. Fridges, washing machines, heating etc seems more feasible.

Well, I think the idea with them is to use the fact they're reasonably small as individual loads and the high quality of short term wind forecasts to avoid having to cycle individual cars frequently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldtree View Post
Renewable power generation and storage are a million miles away from being sustainable in this country and continue to be less financially viable as more oil, coal and gas deposits are both becoming viable to extract and new ones being discovered. Any in depth research shows them to be white elephants.
Well, that’s just not true – onshore wind generation, for example, is one of the cheapest available means of electricity generation.

Not when the wind-turbine companies have to be compensated when there is a surplus of electricity as, I believe, happened in Scotland recently! (they were asked to stop the turbines & were compensated for not generating un-wanted electricity)

easychair wrote: »

It sounds to me as if these particular "scientists" are more likely to be trying to drum up some publicity for "Clausthal University of Technology", (where that? ed.) rather than putting forward anything new.

It's in the Harz area of Lower Saxony, a state which was in the former east Germany. A university of technology is something sort of inbetween a university and an institute of technology in Ireland. Nothing to sneer at really and yes, they really are scientists. With degrees and everything.

easychair wrote: »

The first thing to realise is that there is no such thing as a average mine. The second thing to realise is that disused mines are very unstable places. It's not clear why the authors of this particularly dotty scheme have chosen disused mines as the ideal place to propose for such a scheme. Has anyone any idea why they have decided such inhospitable and dangerous places have been chosen?

I found this article (in German) in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (a respectable paper, not a tabloid type).

This study was started by the Energy Research Centre of Lower Saxony who brought in the tech uni to the project. They examined a good two dozen regions in Germany and based on that narrowed it down to approximately 100 mines. These seem to have mostly been chosen as the rock is particularly steady and the access shafts are "kilometer deep" (not sure if that means one kilometer deep and am inclined to translate it as kilometers deep - don't have a German handy to check at the mo). However, instead of concrete such as would be used in ground surface case, the researchers want to install a network of pipes on two levels so that the mine remains stable.

There are only so many museums, art galleries and concert venues you can make out of old industrial facilities (factories, mines and so on), so I for one find it good to know that somebody somewhere is trying to also find more practical uses for some of the old works.

On a side note, it's possible that when they said city, they meant town - that's one of thoese things that often gets mixed up.

L wrote: »

Basically, there's a reason we have built pretty much no storage since the system was in its infancy - it's at its most useful when a system has a lack of generation capacity compared to the possible variability of demand. Not when the generation itself is the more variable part.

True – storing energy to compensate for lack of baseload is a pretty new concept. Hell, storing energy at all has only really become a pressing concern with the advent of portable electronic devices. We’re not much good at storing energy at present because we’ve never really had a need to do so until recently.

easychair wrote: »

Really? Does that take into account the hidden subsidies to the producers which we all have to pay in ouir increased electricity bills, just to make wind power viable?

What hidden subsidies? The fact that the construction of wind farms is subsidised is no secret. However, various other forms of power generation are also subsidised by the state, most notably peat-fired generation in Ireland.

Oldtree wrote: »

I refer you again to this article:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1101/1224306844626.html

This would seem to back up my opinion that we are all subsidising white elephants on a large scale...

Then I dare say you need to re-read the article. The ESRI report is suggesting that Public Service Obligation Levies (most of which do not subsidise wind generation) need to be re-examined. Nowhere is it suggested that wind projects should be scrapped altogether.

L wrote: »

Most of the research being done suggests it's a white elephant until we move off a synchronous power system or the storage efficiency increases drastically. I'll be curious to see where it goes the next few years but until then we shouldn't be plowing capital investment into it (especially not as there's other things desperately in need of it).

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that we should rush headlong into filling every conceivable space in Europe with water to act as stored energy, because I’d be fairly confident that new and better ways of storing energy will be conceived in the not too distant future. However, this has to be balanced against the fact that the manner in which electricity is currently produced and consumed needs to change pretty quickly, as it’s obviously not sustainable.

djpbarry wrote: »

And yet, wind power is making a significant contribution (~10%) to Ireland’s electricity needs.

And yet, with the very favourable wind conditions throughout Ireland, I still can't get to understand why wind power is not in even more widespread use, because there are a lot of developed countries (Spain, France) where the resource is not at abundant as in Ireland, and yet, the installed power for wind generation is ages ahead. In fact, there are very few spots in Spain (where I come from) with wind conditions similar to the usual ones in Ireland and specially in the west and north coasts, and subsidies aside, with current technology the generated power is on par with more traditional sources looking longer term.

But as fantastic as wind is, you can't rely solely on wind for baseline power production. It is extremely complex to manage the system, so when you turn the TV on, it gets electricity. Wind can be abundant, but it is variable, and you can't control its output within minutes (well, you can divert some generated energy to waste it instead of putting it into the grid where demand is already served). But wind coupled with water storage and hydraulic power generation is a winner combination. And there is no need to use old mines or dig new reservoirs: just build a couple of adequately sized dams in valleys where nature has done its jobs, if there are any good locations in Ireland.

I understand it's not the best moment to ask for money to put in ventures with very long term returns on investment, but lacking any other energy resources, Ireland should have a deeper look at electricity generated from wind. Technology is there, you don't even need to spend more on off-shore wind turbines, and as wind is very abundant everywhere, you can place wind farms close to big cities, and lower transport losses. And, with adequate planning and sizing, water storage to even and manage the power output, so the country could go to half of all the electricity consumed generated by wind.

That, and a comprehensive strategy to reduce electricity demand, could make the country save lots in energy imports, and develop a future proof renewables industry, that currently seems to be lacking.

pljudge321 wrote: »

The Irish power system has the highest level of wind penetration in the world.

Well, I don't think there is any point in trying to show which country has the larger wind power penetration. Wikipedia has complete information about the matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energ%C3%ADa_e%C3%B3lica_en_Espa%C3%B1a

What I was trying to point out is, Ireland being a small country with exceptional wind resource, I would be reasonable for most of the electricity here being from wind, but due to the random nature of wind, if we want to go for current penetration to the next level, some sort of efficient electricity storage (direct or indirect) is in desperate need. And I think, but this is only a personal opinion, that electricity in Ireland is very expensive, and higher wind penetration (through storage) could in the medium term drive costs down (if only prices were driven by real costs...)

dardhal wrote: »

And yet, with the very favourable wind conditions throughout Ireland, I still can't get to understand why wind power is not in even more widespread use, because there are a lot of developed countries (Spain, France) where the resource is not at abundant as in Ireland, and yet, the installed power for wind generation is ages ahead. In fact, there are very few spots in Spain (where I come from) with wind conditions similar to the usual ones in Ireland and specially in the west and north coasts, and subsidies aside, with current technology the generated power is on par with more traditional sources looking longer term.

But as fantastic as wind is, you can't rely solely on wind for baseline power production. It is extremely complex to manage the system, so when you turn the TV on, it gets electricity. Wind can be abundant, but it is variable, and you can't control its output within minutes (well, you can divert some generated energy to waste it instead of putting it into the grid where demand is already served). But wind coupled with water storage and hydraulic power generation is a winner combination. And there is no need to use old mines or dig new reservoirs: just build a couple of adequately sized dams in valleys where nature has done its jobs, if there are any good locations in Ireland.

I understand it's not the best moment to ask for money to put in ventures with very long term returns on investment, but lacking any other energy resources, Ireland should have a deeper look at electricity generated from wind. Technology is there, you don't even need to spend more on off-shore wind turbines, and as wind is very abundant everywhere, you can place wind farms close to big cities, and lower transport losses. And, with adequate planning and sizing, water storage to even and manage the power output, so the country could go to half of all the electricity consumed generated by wind.

That, and a comprehensive strategy to reduce electricity demand, could make the country save lots in energy imports, and develop a future proof renewables industry, that currently seems to be lacking.

The problem with comparing with countries like Spain & France is that they are much bigger and can possibly(?) absorb such developments more easily without such serious repercussions to the environment, biodiversity habitats and the landscape, than a small country like Ireland.

Yes it is manmade, but the point is how do we manage what we have got now. Manmade does not mean that it is there to be completly abused. Our existing environment, such as it is, is a valuable resource and not one to be squandered for short term gain.

And yes you are right, the powers that be do not function for the greater good.

Not sure of prices but I assume wind energy is cheap, prob is it needs a back up, how many times do we want to pay for the same unit of electricity used...
Once to build the turbine and hook it to the grid
Twice to build pumped storage
3 times when u include all the plant already built (mainly gas) and still being paid for (by us)