AL pilot's to ballot.

roundymac · 12-05-2011 5:36pm #1

Aer Lingus pilots are currently balloting whether to strike over the hours they are being forced to work. They claim this is due to a shortage of pilots caused by letting pilots go?? The ballot will be compleated by the end of may, if a strike is to take place it looks like it will be in july/august.
Reading this short of crap you would wonder why Ml O Leary would want to take over Aer Lingus.

highlydebased · 13-05-2011 12:52am

roundymac wrote: »

Aer Lingus pilots are currently balloting whether to strike over the hours they are being forced to work. They claim this is due to a shortage of pilots caused by letting pilots go?? The ballot will be compleated by the end of may, if a strike is to take place it looks like it will be in july/august.
Reading this short of crap you would wonder why Ml O Leary would want to take over Aer Lingus.

Well, because (he'd try anyway) he'd feck the unions out on their ear. They've undermined any potential good they may do for their members by earning such a poor reputation particularly among the travelling public.

Dacian · 13-05-2011 2:49am

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Well, because (he'd try anyway) he'd feck the unions out on their ear. They've undermined any potential good they may do for their members by earning such a poor reputation particularly among the travelling public.

Fecking the unions out on their ear will not make the staff shortage get any better.

EI DO NOT have enough flight crew/cabin crew for their Summer schedule.

This problem isn't about union refusing to work harder, its about these crew reaching their EU maximum legal flying limit of 900 flight hours per year (not counting time spent on the ground or training) and EI suddenly realising they have no-one left to roster flights. In the last 6 weeks EI have been hiring-in or cancelling up to 3 flights per day. The pilots warned EI about this in January, yet the mgmt didn't heed the warning as they know best.

In addition the shorthaul pilots were promised a planned work pattern of 5 on, 3 off. (Similar to what Ryanair do, it must be efficient planning of FR do it) EI are now claiming that they cannot implement this with their route/fleet/schedule network. Do EI have monkeys running their roster section? Ryanair can organise and plan this. During the cabin crew dispute MoL was even quoted as saying that "his cabin crew work 6 on, 3 off"

xflyer · 13-05-2011 11:02am

Not precisely sure how going on strike will somehow relieve the situation? It's impossible to believe the crews are hitting their 900 hour maximum this early in the year. Ryanair pilots only manage it very late in the year and they are rostered to the max. So that's not the issue and it's disengenuous to say it is.

So the REAL issue is the hours the pilots are now being asked to work. Clearly they are not happy being treated like Ryanair pilots.

Certainly it seems management messed up by not replacing crew. But what is with Aer Lingus staff? The knee jerk reaction is threaten strike every time something they don't like comes around.

Every couple of months there's a strike or a threat of a strike in Aer Lingus. It's actually becoming silly. Every time it happens, MOL must laugh and laugh. More money in his bank account.

lord lucan · 13-05-2011 2:57pm

I normally steer clear of EI industrial action threads but i can't help but wonder what the hell EI are playing at. Mueller talks about the Irish economy/landing charges/fuel prices hitting EI hard when in reality they're doing the the most damage themselves.

All the various rumblings of industrial action do nothing but undermine customer/potential customer business as people will naturally be wary of booking a flight with an airline when there's a possibility that their dream holiday may be messed about. EI's fares are quite high now,why risk it if you can get a cheaper and more reliable alternative. Whatever you say about FR,there's never any issues like this to throw a spanner in the works. They get you to where you want to go barring a technical problem.

Dacian · 13-05-2011 5:39pm

xflyer wrote: »

Not precisely sure how going on strike will somehow relieve the situation? It's impossible to believe the crews are hitting their 900 hour maximum this early in the year. Ryanair pilots only manage it very late in the year and they are rostered to the max. So that's not the issue and it's disengenuous to say it is.

So the REAL issue is the hours the pilots are now being asked to work. Clearly they are not happy being treated like Ryanair pilots.

I'm not being disingenuous. EI count their hours from 01 June to 30th May (not sure why though,must ask). Thus the end of the year is fast approaching and flight hours are close to max. EI have slightly busier schedule as this time last year,with about 60 less pilots.

In actual fact the the EI pilots want to emulate their FR peers. They want to work hard while in the cockpit so they can maximise time off. As it is EI regularly roster single days off for their flight/cabin crew which doesn't allow them to get a decent break from up to 7 days of shifts. (ie 6 on, 1 off, 5 on, 1 off, 5 on 2 off etc.,)

IALPA gave the EI mgmt a detailed plan before Christmas which delivered the agreed upon productivity increase, EI rejected this plan, thus the ballot. This has been brewing for quite some time as the EI mgmt deal with one section at a time. The implementation of a pattern was supposed to be last summer. In the last 8 month EI have been changing the 'interpretation' of the Greenfield plan or backtracking out of their end of the bargain. Thus the cabin crew dispute and now the flight crew problem.

I do agree with Xflyer that strike solves nothing.

FlutterinBantam · 13-05-2011 7:12pm

Dacian wrote: »

I'm not being disingenuous. EI count their hours from 01 June to 30th May (not sure why though,must ask). Thus the end of the year is fast approaching and flight hours are close to max. EI have slightly busier schedule as this time last year,with about 60 less pilots.

In actual fact the the EI pilots want to emulate their FR peers. They want to work hard while in the cockpit so they can maximise time off. As it is EI regularly roster single days off for their flight/cabin crew which doesn't allow them to get a decent break from up to 7 days of shifts. (ie 6 on, 1 off, 5 on, 1 off, 5 on 2 off etc.,)

IALPA gave the EI mgmt a detailed plan before Christmas which delivered the agreed upon productivity increase, EI rejected this plan, thus the ballot. This has been brewing for quite some time as the EI mgmt deal with one section at a time. The implementation of a pattern was supposed to be last summer. In the last 8 month EI have been changing the 'interpretation' of the Greenfield plan or backtracking out of their end of the bargain. Thus the cabin crew dispute and now the flight crew problem.

I do agree with Xflyer that strike solves nothing.

There you have it, EI staff are being manipulated by the unions, whom, of course, it in their own interest to foment unrest, aided and abetted by the usual malcontents who don't want to work anyway.

Time the staff up there woke up to these gimps.:cool:

MoeJay · 13-05-2011 7:35pm

Oh please, FB, give it a rest! Do you know any pilots in EI? Have you seen their rosters? Or is this just union-bashing by you yet again?

Bearcat · 13-05-2011 8:30pm

FB......trolling at its worst.

FlutterinBantam · 14-05-2011 7:47pm

Cannot understand this attitude.Take a contrary view and straight away you are being called a troll.

Pilot's rosters are controlled by legislation afaik, in so far as hours worked are pertinent.

Either they are legal or not.

Now having re-read the post it is a bit inflammatory, so can I apologise for that.

Not meant to convey what it seemed to.

Sorry , bad bit of posting there by me.

bladeruner · 15-05-2011 9:04pm

xflyer wrote: »

Not precisely sure how going on strike will somehow relieve the situation? It's impossible to believe the crews are hitting their 900 hour maximum this early in the year. Ryanair pilots only manage it very late in the year and they are rostered to the max. So that's not the issue and it's disengenuous to say it is.

They are hitting monthly maximums.

xflyer wrote: »

So the REAL issue is the hours the pilots are now being asked to work. Clearly they are not happy being treated like Ryanair pilots.

If Ryanair pilots were shown the roster in Aer Lingus, they would pass out.
Aer Lingus pilots do the same max of 900 block hours per year but their duty hours are vastly higher.
It tends to confuse most folks to learn that Aer Lingus pilots work far far harder then Ryanair pilots.
Ryanair pilots have a 5 on , 4 off roster , I saw an Aer Lingus pilots roster recently that had 3 days off in 18 days.
Aer Lingus pilots would kill for the Ryanair roster.

xflyer wrote: »

Certainly it seems management messed up by not replacing crew. But what is with Aer Lingus staff? The knee jerk reaction is threaten strike every time something they don't like comes around.

I am informed that the managment "Greenfield" cost savings plan promised the short haul pilots a 5 on , 3 off roster ( the roster Ryanair had 10 years ago before moving to the 5/4 )
Not only are they not getting it but the manpower shortages are creating insane rosters for the 7 months of the summer season.
I have seen a few of the rosters and they are nothing short of dangerours. lots of split days off etc

xflyer wrote: »

Every couple of months there's a strike or a threat of a strike in Aer Lingus. It's actually becoming silly. Every time it happens, MOL must laugh and laugh. More money in his bank account.

you mean less money ?
if the Aer Lingus share price goes down then he has to write off millions ...

roundymac · 15-05-2011 9:09pm

No Bladerunner, he means more money, if Aer Lingus are on strike it will mean his planes are full. Ryanair have already written down their shareholding in Aer Lingus.

bladeruner · 15-05-2011 9:19pm

roundymac wrote: »

No Bladerunner, he means more money, if Aer Lingus are on strike it will mean his planes are full. Ryanair have already written down their shareholding in Aer Lingus.

I take your point but I have not seen the word STRIKE anywhere except from a few posters here , I believe the pilots will ballot for industrial action ,this could be anything...
how many times over the past few years have the pilots actually gone on strike ?

If the Aer Lingus share price dips further (unlikely in reality ,I think) then Ryanair will have to continue writing down their own balance sheet.

Ei management need some of the hair dryer treatment from O'Leary and their other share holders for allowing this crewing mess to develop.
If they hired more experienced pilots from Ryanair , Cityjet , and Aer Arann then they could get them online a lot quicker then the 200 hour guys they are taking .

LOccitane · 15-05-2011 11:00pm

roundymac wrote: »

No Bladerunner, he means more money, if Aer Lingus are on strike it will mean his planes are full. Ryanair have already written down their shareholding in Aer Lingus.

The point on the reduction in current shareholder value still stands however as made above by Bladerunner.

Furthermore, whilst Ryanair initially wrote off their shareholding in EI to market values - it should be stressed that the reverse has also taken place. Ryanair re-introduced EUR 10s of millions in their Operating Income during the past twelve months to reflect the increased value of their shareholding in EI once again, in line with current fair values.

The s/holding value included in the accounts was measured at - at least EUR 0.74/share from what I remember reading, effectively being a reversal to an extent of the previous write off.

This directly contributed, materially to FR's performance. Any adverse trending in the EI s/price in the future would lead to renewed impairment losses being booked.

LOccitane

Mc Love · 31-05-2011 11:39am

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0531/aerlingus.html

Aer Lingus pilots have served notice of industrial action to the airline from next Tuesday.

87% of its members voted in favour of industrial action when balloted.

The Irish Airline Pilots' Association and IMPACT have served notice that from next Tuesday 7 June, pilots based in Cork and Dublin will not work on rostered free days or annual leave days.

They will also report for duty one hour later than their rostered report times.

Criticising the notice of action, Aer Lingus CEO Christoph Mueller said: 'This withdrawal of flexibility will destroy our ability to operate a proper schedule as we will miss our airport slot times, parking stands, gate positions and will be unable to fulfil flight connections for customers.

'In addition pilot and cabin crew operational duties will be out of sync which may result in cabin crew having insufficient hours to operate all flights.

'This may lead to a full cancellation of operations from Tuesday 7 June unless IALPA / IMPACT stand down their action.'

David086 · 31-05-2011 1:49pm

Christ almighty here we go again.

roundymac · 31-05-2011 2:07pm

Ryanair had an add in last fri Irish Examiner "congratulating" Aer Lingus on 75 years of strikes, high fares and poor service. This news by the pilots just makes it all the more real. Industrial relations in this company really need to be sorted out, or else they might as well close down. I wonder how much support ( co-operation) Mueller is getting from his management team in getting thinks done?

jackal · 31-05-2011 2:25pm

Getting married abroad this October and when I sent out details of what flights were available, where Ryanair and Aer Lingus both had routes I recommended Ryanair because there is very little in terms of cost between them and Ryanair do not go on strike with depressing regularity every year like Aer Lingus. The public are sick and tired of this ****e with Aer Lingus.

Causing uncertainty, monetary loss, and leaving people stranded is destroying whats left of the Aer Lingus brand (not much at this point). We, the flying public, do not care, whether its management, unions, workers, whatever, the result is the same - more f*cking hassle than its worth to book with Aer Lingus. To the striking pilots, or managers causing the strike, or whoever causes these things to escalate constantly... you may win your battle, but you will lose the war - Aer Lingus is already seen as untrustworthy for customers because of the constant AVOIDABLE strike action, customers will go else where. I already have.

Shelga · 31-05-2011 2:40pm

I could not care less why the pilots are striking. The one time I book with them in 5 years and they go on strike. Are they ever f***ing not on strike.

I am supposed to be flying home to Dublin from Birmingham next Tuesday, the 7th of June. The only reason I picked EI over Ryanair is that their flight times were slightly more favourable, but I paid an extra 30-40euro compared to the equivalent Ryanair fare. That was fine, no problem. Should have known something like this would happen though, with the ridiculous antics of IMPACT coming into play.

This causes extra stress as I am going to Birmingham for a job interview, and need to be home by Wednesday to get back to my current unpaid job. EI pilots need to wake the f*** up to reality and as the poster above me said, they may win the battle but they won't win the war.

Can't even get through to them to ask what's happening, as there's nothing about this strike on the website, no email address is provided, and I meet a dead end when I ring their customer relations section, where I am informed by a recorded voice message (by a girl who sounds like she wants to kill herself) that I can send any queries by post only. F*ck you Aer Lingus, f*ck you.

Will never, ever fly with them again, and grow more sick of this kip of a country by the day. When I book my one way flight out of here it won't be with EI, that's for sure.

cuterob · 31-05-2011 3:13pm

i'm flying out to munich on the 7.20 morning flight on the 11th of june and back on the 20th.. whats the most likely effect this strike or whatever it is will have on me?

Fusion158 · 31-05-2011 4:08pm

cuterob wrote: »

i'm flying out to munich on the 7.20 morning flight on the 11th of june and back on the 20th.. whats the most likely effect this strike or whatever it is will have on me?

I'm in a similar boat, flying to Amsterdam to get a flight to San Francisco on the 11th. I booked the flight with KLM but they can't/won't do anything for me until the flight is actually cancelled so now I'm looking at alternative ways to get to Amsterdam which will cost me over €400 and then there is the cancellation fee I'll have to pay to cancel the Aer Lingus portion of my flight. Could be looking at up to €500 on top of the €750 I paid when I booked the flight in the first place. ****ING pilots:mad::mad::mad:

dubdaymo · 31-05-2011 4:40pm

It beats me why anyone would want to book flights with an airline that always has had a combination of the worst management imaginable, highly paid Union leaders who are looking after No. 1 first and foremost and staff that have a long history of me, me, me. Meanwhile the customers, the few they have left, suffer on.

The current trend in there seems to be:

Step 1. Management deliberately inflames the staff (or at least that's the way it is made out to be, who knows).

Step 2. Staff threaten to or take industrial action/ go slows or whatever.

Step 3. Management threaten to penalise staff or even sack them.

Step 4. Mediation follows.

Step 5. Compromise solution worked out.....until next week.

As for me it's Ryanair or the ferry/train. I belong to ABAL. Guess what that stands for.

xflyer · 31-05-2011 4:49pm

Thanks Dacian and Bladerunner for the explanations, somehow I never followed up on this thread. Certainly interesting. BTW I do understand what it's like to work long duty hours with far too much flying. It's tough.

Nevertheless the strike option is a bit absurd. It does seem to be the default option for any dispute in Aer Lingus. Incidentaly I worked for a close subsidiary of Aer Lingus for many years. It was the same there, a strike vote followed by conciliation and a last minute postponement. It was alright back then but it's positively archaic way of conducting industrial relations.

As always there will be a last minute cancellation of the strike. So intending passengers shouldn't worry too much.

But it's still daft.

Killinator · 31-05-2011 6:09pm

Sh*t anyway, I'm supposed to be flying to France on the 8th,
Not only will this screw up my flight plans if it goes ahead but it will also screw up my other plans regarding trains and other transport which is already booked and paid for!
Thanks AL, it wasn't enough to sweat over the ash cloud for the second year in a row, but now I have to deal with this sh*t with the ONLY holiday I'll get this year!

And I don't care who's to blame, be it management or pilots, as usual it'll be the customers who ponied up the cash that will suffer as always!

Hannibal · 31-05-2011 6:32pm

Is it as simple as the pilots wanting to do their own rosters by themselves and EI wanting them instead to work what they're given??

I've heard of captains being given ridiculous redundancy and then the company finding out they're understaffed and the former captains are coming back as 1st officers. And cabin managers on €64 per hour as a result of legacy payments and they do f-all.

On another note a couple of friends are cabin crew and in the last three weeks one of them has been sent to both Shannon and Belfast in taxis to work routes and then a taxi home to Dublin from both. The fares when she got out were all over €400, so thats over €2,400 just ferrying her around to work 3 routes and this is an everyday occurance allegedly. The management clearly aren't making the best use of its resources.

It's in my opinion the best airline to fly with by far but behind the scenes it seems to be an underworked and overpaid minefield in some areas.

Killinator · 31-05-2011 6:54pm

:mad:

Dotsey wrote: »

It's in my opinion the best airline to fly with by far but behind the scenes it seems to be an underworked and overpaid minefield in some areas.

Unfortunately, thats no good to the people that are gonna be stranded because of them.

Shelga · 31-05-2011 6:58pm

Are Aer Lingus obliged to give you a refund if they cancel your flight? I would have thought so but the way people are talking it seems maybe not??

Killinator · 31-05-2011 7:06pm

Shelga wrote: »

Are Aer Lingus obliged to give you a refund if they cancel your flight? I would have thought so but the way people are talking it seems maybe not??

Its not the refund that bothers me(although I would expect one)
Its that I will have to buy new tickets for other transport or miss out on my trip completely, and won't get a refund on the train tickets I purchased, which are dependent on the flight times I have booked for AL!

cson · 31-05-2011 7:09pm

**** them anyway, have a LHR flight next Wednesday. :mad:

Locomojo · 31-05-2011 11:19pm

So I am flying with Aer Lingus to Milan on Thursday after work at 4.30pm.... got a TEXT this evening to say that the flight is cancelled and that the alternative they are offering me is at 7.00 on Thurs morning. This text was sent at 8.00pm this evening and they do not have a helpline open until tomorrow morning at 8am. I am already taking Friday off work and cant possibly take Thursday too. It's a complete joke.... I booked Aer Lingus because I'd expect something like this from Ryanair....apparently you get one alternative if your flight is cancelled and i think after that it's tough....dont know what they are going to tell me when I tell them that I cant take their alternative as I have to work, I'm going to tell them that I want the Friday morning flight but I have a feeling they'll tell me to go and jump . My only alternative is to take a refund for the cancelled flight and book Ryanair.... they might charge me to use the toilet but at least they'll get me there.... disaster.

LXFlyer · 01-06-2011 4:42pm

Shelga wrote: »

Are Aer Lingus obliged to give you a refund if they cancel your flight? I would have thought so but the way people are talking it seems maybe not??

In these circumstances if they cancel your flight then you will be offered the choice of rebooking or a full refund.

That's what has happened on prior occasions.

AL pilot's to ballot.

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