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Open Street Map expansion project

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    #92
    larryone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭larryone


    PrzemoF wrote: »
    I'm using the same method, but I'd suggest to upload gpx files to OSM anyway. Multiple traces of the same road make verification if the road is really in proper location much easier. Just go to a main road (i.e. Cork South Ring road) and download all gpx traces for that road to JOSM (or turn them on in Potlatch) and you'll see what I mean. I fixed a few sliproads and a roundabout location yesterday using multiple traces. If you have 10 traces showing that a roundabout is shifted you can be sure it's shifted. But you can't say the same thing with just one trace.

    Happy mapping,
    Przemo

    While the availability of multiple traces helps, they may reflect a historical state of a piece of infrastructure. If you drive somewhere after major road works, your trace may be more accurate than the 10/20 others you can download from OSM servers. In all cases, it's wise to add comments to your changesets to reflect the reality behind your change.


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    #93
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #94
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    Condi wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That sounds like a reasonable plan. Whenever things are not physically accessible and no good, free satellite imagery exists, extrapolation is the way to go. As you say, not ideal but much better than nothing.
    This post has been deleted.

    Sure, people edit the coastline all the time. Quite often, they manage to break it in the process as well :). I personally have done some coastline tugging around the Malahide Estuary (where the IÉ bridge collapsed last year) and Dublin Port. What was there before was quite inaccurate. What is there now is a combination of my GPS tracks and satellite imagery.
    This post has been deleted.

    Please remember that only Yahoo! permit their images to be used for OSM work. Never use Google, Bing, DG or any other commercial images without getting a suitable license first.
    This post has been deleted.

    First of all, as above, please keep in mind that just because you can find something on the Internet, it does not mean you can use it for OSM. If you found an official list somewhere, make sure the license is compatible with OSM first.

    That said, we have had a lot of success talking to Logainm who are the keepers of Irish place names. They have given us verbal permission to use their data (only the Irish names - the English equivalents they have may be tainted). We still have no written confirmation though. The process got a bit stuck but with the Gaelic map now online, I think we have a good chance of getting it unstuck. The best thing to do is join the #osm-ie IRC channel. Many active mappers hang out there all the time and will always know the most recent gossip and news.


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    #95
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #96
    civis_liberalis
    Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭civis_liberalis


    Hi all.

    I'm interested in making the map of my area much more complete.

    Correct names for roads, adding in all the missing ones, possibly re-drawing some existing ones etc. Points of interest in the general area wouldn't take too long to add either.

    This may be a long shot but, is there any way to overlay an image onto the native openstreetmap editor?

    The online OSI maps are an excellent resource for charting the roads.

    EDIT: Obvious copyright problems have just come to mind now.


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    #97
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    @civis_liberalis

    As you just realized yourself, copying from other maps the single biggest no-no for the OpenStreetMap project.

    If we wanted to copy OSi maps, we could just put them on a photocopier and press the "go" button. OSM is about creating a brand new map from scratch. You will have to go out, write down or photograph street name signs and follow roads with your GPS to get their alignment. Once you do that a couple of times, you will see how addictive it is :).


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    #98
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Hello Open Street Mappers!

    I just wanted to briefly jump into this thread to thank you all for your efforts in building up OSM. I've only just found out about it, and read the thread with interest. It's clear that all of you guys are doing work that'll really benefit the community as a whole, and you're doing it in a selfless and professional way. Thanks and continued good luck!

    That's all I wanted to say, just a brief tangent :-)


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    #99
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I thought copying maps was only an issue when those maps were in copyright?

    I've two 1 inch maps, one of south Wicklow and one of Westmeath from the OS, the one of wickla is dated 1909 and the one of Westmeath is definitely older.
    As far as I can make out, they would have been under crown copyright and thus that's expired.

    Is it ok to use these in osm?


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    #100
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I thought copying maps was only an issue when those maps were in copyright?

    I've two 1 inch maps, one of south Wicklow and one of Westmeath from the OS, the one of wickla is dated 1909 and the one of Westmeath is definitely older.
    As far as I can make out, they would have been under crown copyright and thus that's expired.

    Is it ok to use these in osm?

    Yes, as long as they are the originals and not later reprints. Although a reprint really shouldn't count as a new creative work, we know of cases where a new copyright was asserted and we don't want a court case.

    Basically, the deal is:

    Anything from OS (any of the 3) will be OK if it's an original map at least 50 years old (government copyright, though modern OS maps are no longer under government copyright). Maps from ordinary commercial sources will be subject to the normal copyright expiration terms, which IIRC is 75 years, but with the potential for extra complexity.


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    #101
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I thought copying maps was only an issue when those maps were in copyright?

    Correct.
    I've two 1 inch maps, one of south Wicklow and one of Westmeath from the OS, the one of wickla is dated 1909 and the one of Westmeath is definitely older.
    As far as I can make out, they would have been under crown copyright and thus that's expired.

    Yes. Crown copyright (at that time at least) was 50 years. So the maps are free to use. It would be great if you shared them with the wider OSM community. Scan your maps, upload them to Map Warper, stretch them to fit the actual geometry of Ireland nicely and trace away.
    Is it ok to use these in osm?

    Yes. Just remember that you need to warp them first. Maps can use all sorts of projections, can be distorted or inaccurate. You need to properly align your scans first.


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    #102
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    mackerski wrote: »
    Maps from ordinary commercial sources will be subject to the normal copyright expiration terms, which IIRC is 75 years, but with the potential for extra complexity.

    The major difficulty here is that it is something like "life of the main author + 75 years". Good luck finding out who the main author of a map was... and when he died.


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    #103
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    King Edward was the Crown and he died in c.1910 :)

    Read this

    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps


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    #104
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    King Edward was the Crown and he died in c.1910 :)

    Read this

    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps

    I've read it. It says that maps under Crown Copyright become free to use 50 years after first published. Who the monarch was and when he died is, unless the map was his sole work, irrelevant.

    And while it's not on this page, investigations in Ireland concluded that Irish government copyright had the same 50 year expiry.


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    #105
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1927/en/act/pub/0016/sec0156.html#sec156


    168.—(1) The copyright in every work prepared or published by or under the direction or control of the late Provisional Government of Ireland or any Minister or Department thereof shall, subject to any agreement with the author, belong to the Government of Saorstát Eireann, and shall continue for a period of fifty years from the date of the first publication of the work.


    (2) The copyright in every work prepared, printed, or published (whether before or after the commencement of this Part of this Act) by or under the direction of the Government of Saorstát Eireann or any Minister or Department thereof or by or under the superintendence or authority of the Stationery Office shall, subject to any agreement with the author thereof, belong to the Government of Saorstát Eireann and shall continue for a period of fifty years from the date of the first publication of the work.

    174.—(1) The repeal of the Copyright Act, 1911, by this Act shall not save as is otherwise expressly provided in this Part of this Act add to, derogate from, or otherwise affect any copyright or other right acquired before the 6th day of December, 1921, under or by virtue of the Copyright Act, 1911, or any order made thereunder.


    (2) Section 4 (which relates to repeals) of this Act shall, in so far as it relates to the repeal of the Copyright Act, 1911, be deemed to have had force and effect as from the 6th day of December, 1921, and this Part of this Act shall be deemed to have had force and effect as from that date: Provided that—


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    #106
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The 50 year rule had been inherited by the state from the Copyright Act 1911 and was formalised in the Republic in 1927 as I showed above.

    The Ordnance Survey Staff were civil servants until they became an agency in 2002 or so. Normal Civil Service copyright laws apply to Ordnance Survey staff between 1927 and 2001.

    The 1927 Act may have been materially amended thereafter , I have not searched and therefore cannot comment.

    This UK project ( further link fixed) is digitising UK OS maps from around 1960 into OSM, not from 1961 as you can see if you read the links. They have a few Scottish ones so far in the fixed link but England is coming along much better in this other link

    All the projects create a new render(s) in addition to Mapnik , do explore.

    The 50 year rule in Ireland would also apply to the c. 1947 25 inch series as well as the pre world war one maps. However I am not minded to advocate anything other than finding a collection of them lads pending detailed clarification of the legal situation.

    The UK Project(s?) is indicative of a codebase that could be used in conjunction with Open Street Map at some future stage and in a structured collaboration. I shall not be making contact with them myself.


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    #107
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    I tend to stop by Chapters on my weekly grocery run to check whether any OSi maps from the 1950es have appeared in their "old maps" bin. So far, no luck.

    I have to wonder though - why would anyone be scanning old OS maps in the UK (other than in NI)? OSGB have freed their data - and this is recent data, not 50 years old.


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    #108
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    undo wrote: »
    I have to wonder though - why would anyone be scanning old OS maps in the UK (other than in NI)? OSGB have freed their data - and this is recent data, not 50 years old.

    Easy - most people will now have stopped using that source, but it has been on the go for as long as I've been mapping with OSM. It's only a very few months since the OSGB data were released, and until the date of actual release it was far from clear how much of it would be useful.


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    #109
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The OSGB layer is excellent and fair play. The OSI 'street' layer on maps.osi.ie since last week is even better in some ways.

    The OSGB layer together with lots of historic mashuppery is visible and selectable instead of Mapnik on this rather interesting Manchester Mashup site.


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    #110
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #111
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    I ran into an OSi mapper the other week. He was measuring Mountjoy Square... with a measuring tape. So there is actual legwork involved, both for us OSMers and them OSiers.


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    #112
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    undo wrote: »
    I ran into an OSi mapper the other week. He was measuring Mountjoy Square... with a measuring tape. So there is actual legwork involved, both for us OSMers and them OSiers.

    You could have offered him a smoke and played football with him, then you could have pooled your data.


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    #113
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #114
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    mackerski wrote: »
    You could have offered him a smoke and played football with him, then you could have pooled your data.

    He was smoking actually. But as you know, I do not smoke. And I am not a fan of football.


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    #115
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    undo wrote: »
    He was smoking actually. But as you know, I do not smoke. And I am not a fan of football.

    And, that, my friend, is why the OSI outflanks us...


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    #116
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #117
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    From a correctness point of view, a long road is more desirable. It *is* one long road after all - and so it should be mapped as such. One obvious advantage of this is that if the road bends at a junction, a long road will make sat navs say "keep left on [the same road]" while two shorter segments might lead to the message "turn left onto [the second segment]". If any tool cannot deal with long roads, the tool is broken, not the map.

    That said, with the current data model, you must break a road whenever tags change. So if a long R-road passes through a town and carries a local name there, such as "Dublin Road," you will need to break it into segments. The same goes for changing speed limits, changes in the existence of bike lanes and so on.


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    #118
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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    #119
    undo
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭undo


    Condi wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    If the roads going through the junction actually carry on unchanged, that is perfectly correct. But I find that, at least in towns, many things change at junctions - one-ways, names, etc. Also, turn restrictions only work when you break a way.


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    #120
    IrlJidel
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭IrlJidel


    Mapquest/AOL are now using OSM data!

    http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/07/09/aols-mapquest-looks-to-wikipedia-model-for-mapping/

    You can view it here: http://open.mapquest.co.uk/

    Their site also offers driving directions using osm data.

    Ireland still has a long way to go to be road complete, but it is some vindication of how mainstream OSM can become.


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    #121
    yuloni
    Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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