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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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24567…33

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    #32
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes i beleive it'll take well over 50 years to happen, if it even happens.
    I think I will see it in my lifetime anyway.


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    #33
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I think I will see it in my lifetime anyway.

    How many years do you think?? Catholic population doesn't grow that quick ( i.e it doesn't grow from 40% to 70%) in 20 years. I really think the best option would be to wait until Northern Ireland is big enough and then make it, its own independant country, or keep it under uk rule but make it smaller, i.e keeping my county, antrim and down because i don't think its fair on the counties with unionist majorities.


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    #34
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Bebs wrote: »
    My sentiments exactly. Can you imagine living in Dublin under the threat of Unionist bombings? Northern Ireland is not worth the hassle. If the electorate in the Republic ever feel otherwise then they'll give SF a parliamentary majority.

    Well why would they vote for SF when they have a republic??


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    #35
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    How many years do you think?? Catholic population doesn't grow that quick ( i.e it doesn't grow from 40% to 70%) in 20 years. I really think the best option would be to wait until Northern Ireland is big enough and then make it, its own independant country, or keep it under uk rule but make it smaller, i.e keeping my county, antrim and down because i don't think its fair on the counties with unionist majorities.
    Shame people did not think of the nationalist majority in Fermanagh etc isnt it?


    What about that nationalists in those counties? leave them behind?


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    #36
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Shame people did not think of the nationalist majority in Fermanagh etc isnt it?


    What about that nationalists in those counties? leave them behind?

    No we are doing it by majorities here, so are you saying that in a county that is 70% unionist and only 20% nationalist you would put it in the united ireland because there were a small minority of nationalists... that wouldn't be fair on the 70% of the whole county.


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    #37
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Now you see why partition was never a good idea.

    Replace county with country and switch nationalist with unionist.


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    #38
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Now you see why partition was never a good idea.

    Replace county with country and switch nationalist with unionist.

    Well then the only solution is to leave it the way it is now, most people are happy with it and theres no fighting so why the big fuss to change it??


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    #39
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Most people are not happy with it. Everyone who votes for nationalist parties is not.


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    #40
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Most people are not happy with it. Everyone who votes for nationalist parties is not.

    No change that to SF


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    #41
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Bebs wrote: »
    My sentiments exactly. Can you imagine living in Dublin under the threat of Unionist bombings? Northern Ireland is not worth the hassle. If the electorate in the Republic ever feel otherwise then they'll give SF a parliamentary majority.

    What an ignorant post.

    Q1 - Name one political party in the Dail that do not want an United Ireland.

    Q2 - Why should there be 'Unionist bombings' as you put it, after all the majority of the NI population wants an United Ireland in that scenario, hypocritical of Unionists not to accept the democratic wishes of the NI population when they do now.


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    #42
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    No change that to SF
    No, everyone who votes for a nationalist party wants a UI. It is a stated aim of SDLP too.


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    #43
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    No, everyone who votes for a nationalist party wants a UI. It is a stated aim of SDLP too.

    Well i wouldn't say alot of people here in northern ireland want a ui about 30% i'd say remember theres catholics who want to keep the union too.


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    #44
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Well i wouldn't say alot of people here in northern ireland want a ui about 30% i'd say remember theres catholics who want to keep the union too.
    I refer you back to the BBC poll.

    Or look at the amount of people who voted for nationalist politicians in the elections.


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    #45
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    gurramok wrote: »
    Q2 - Why should there be 'Unionist bombings' as you put it, after all the majority of the NI population wants an United Ireland in that scenario, hypocritical of Unionists not to accept the democratic wishes of the NI population when they do now.

    It takes relatively few people to cause an awful lot of problems. This is typically the case with terrorism. There'll always be people unwilling to accept things and willing to go to extremes. It's even the case right now even, albeit to a much smaller degree than previously. But I would bet practically anything on a united Ireland reigniting loyalist/unionist violence to a much larger scale.

    I think it's exceptionally naive to think otherwise tbh.


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    #46
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    LookingFor wrote: »
    It takes relatively few people to cause an awful lot of problems. This is typically the case with terrorism. There'll always be people unwilling to accept things and willing to go to extremes. It's even the case right now even, albeit to a much smaller degree than previously. But I would bet practically anything on a united Ireland reigniting loyalist/unionist violence to a much larger scale.

    I think it's exceptionally naive to think otherwise tbh.

    Then thats a case of severe hypocrisy if the Unionist population support such violence in the face of a democratic mandate from the NI electorate.


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    #47
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    gurramok wrote: »
    Then thats a case of severe hypocrisy if the Unionist population support such violence in the face of a democratic mandate from the NI electorate.

    I'm sure accusations of hypocrisy would stop such thugs right in their tracks...

    edit - and I'm not saying that such violence would necessarily have majority unionist support. I'm just saying that you would have violence, pretty serious violence i think. Anyone who expect such a transition to be peaceful...that's a lovely and romantic idea, but dreadfully naive.


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    #48
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I have no doubt there will be a few flair ups but not on a huge scale.


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    #49
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    LookingFor wrote: »
    I'm sure accusations of hypocrisy would stop such thugs right in their tracks...

    edit - and I'm not saying that such violence would necessarily have majority unionist support. I'm just saying that you would have violence, pretty serious violence i think. Anyone who expect such a transition to be peaceful...that's a lovely and romantic idea, but dreadfully naive.

    Well, we have to expect all normal right thinking people in the Unionist population to condemn such acts and pass info onto the authorities just like the what happens to republican extremists now.

    Is it naive to think the Unionists will not support the extremists?


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    #50
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    To answer the thread when the government want to further imperil the countries finances.

    What is the rational behind unification besides the increasingly irrelevant concept of nationalism?


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    #51
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    rovert wrote: »
    To answer the thread when the government want to further imperil the countries finances.

    What is the rational behind unification besides the increasingly irrelevant concept of nationalism?
    There are economic ones as well, I went through a few of these a few pages back.


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    #52
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    There are economic ones as well, I went through a few of these a few pages back.

    Which were either shot down by another poster or hypothetical. If anything you made a case for Britain taking over all 36. In reality N.I. would cost us billions.


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    #53
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    The only way a United Ireland is possible is if politics in the North desensitises from the legacy of the past. This will take at least 50 years of peace (By no means guaranteed)

    Step 2 would be the re-approachment and conciliation with our lost tribe up North. This means allowing them to march in Dublin, for one. They need to feel like citizens of the Republic and not harassed by self righteous Republicans on the one hand and scumbags on the other looking for a scrap and general chaos. If Ireland is ever to be united, it needs to embrace the Orange Order as a representative community of this island, with deep traditional and familial bonds. There is no other way around this. The Orange Order is not going to go away.

    Step 3 would involve a lot of arm wringing over what would most likely be a federal solution, with a Stormont assembly having roughly the same powers under a Dáil government as it has under a Westminster government. This would be ideal for the Unionists as it would provide them with the appropriate political safeguards and it would also mean that they could have a sizable, though not decisive, political representation in Dublin. But they would have a majority in Belfast.

    This all boils down to appeasing the Unionists and shafting the nationalists. But its the only way it will happen. It cannot and will not happen through force of arms. One would have to be seriously deluded to think that a few old men in rotting Belfast pubs could topple the British army with the force of their bootleg cigarettes. The dissidents have to be stopped, somehow, from breaking the progress of our generation.


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    #54
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    You and I are in agreement on some things Denerick.

    I think a federal system is the way to go. Lumping in a few more TDs will not work. 50 years is realistic.

    I will say it again, a UI is not just an extra six counties, it is a chance to start again. To build a fairer, more inclusive and better society based on the 1916 proclamation.


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    #55
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I have no doubt there will be a few flair ups but not on a huge scale.

    Well if they do it by couties the ira will definately get involved, but i really can't see the uda or whatever them other ones are called getting involved as they haven't really done that much in the past compared to that ira, plus they were set up a 100 years ago for getting Northern Ireland set up.


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    #56
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Denerick wrote: »
    The only way a United Ireland is possible is if politics in the North desensitises from the legacy of the past. This will take at least 50 years of peace (By no means guaranteed)

    Step 2 would be the re-approachment and conciliation with our lost tribe up North. This means allowing them to march in Dublin, for one. They need to feel like citizens of the Republic and not harassed by self righteous Republicans on the one hand and scumbags on the other looking for a scrap and general chaos. If Ireland is ever to be united, it needs to embrace the Orange Order as a representative community of this island, with deep traditional and familial bonds. There is no other way around this. The Orange Order is not going to go away.

    Step 3 would involve a lot of arm wringing over what would most likely be a federal solution, with a Stormont assembly having roughly the same powers under a Dáil government as it has under a Westminster government. This would be ideal for the Unionists as it would provide them with the appropriate political safeguards and it would also mean that they could have a sizable, though not decisive, political representation in Dublin. But they would have a majority in Belfast.

    This all boils down to appeasing the Unionists and shafting the nationalists. But its the only way it will happen. It cannot and will not happen through force of arms. One would have to be seriously deluded to think that a few old men in rotting Belfast pubs could topple the British army with the force of their bootleg cigarettes. The dissidents have to be stopped, somehow, from breaking the progress of our generation.


    Well the nationalists can just fit in, (and i'm sure after all the ranting about a pile of ****e over the years when they if they ever get a united ireland realise that it wasn't worthwhile.)

    Step 2. That will never happen don't even consider it, alot of the Orangemen are ex uda people so would just go in there to cause trouble i know the type of them, plus the only ones in the Orange order now are scumbags lol from council estates brought up by low pay families who would tell them bad things about catholics i.e these people are more bitter, so they would also go in and cause trouble, the Orange Order has turned into a very bitter organisation over the years its not like it was when say my great granda was in it, and thats why so many people have left it, i mean years ago nearly every protestant family were in it meaning that it had hundreds of thousands of people in it, now it only has like 70,000 or something in it.


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    #57
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    owenc wrote: »
    Well the nationalists can just fit in, (and i'm sure after all the ranting about a pile of ****e over the years when they if they ever get a united ireland realise that it wasn't worthwhile.)

    Step 2. That will never happen don't even consider it, alot of the Orangemen are ex uda people so would just go in there to cause trouble i know the type of them, plus the only ones in the Orange order now are scumbags lol from council estates brought up by low pay families who would tell them bad things about catholics i.e these people are more bitter, so they would also go in and cause trouble, the Orange Order has turned into a very bitter organisation over the years its not like it was when say my great granda was in it, and thats why so many people have left it, i mean years ago nearly every protestant family were in it meaning that it had hundreds of thousands of people in it, now it only has like 70,000 or something in it.


    Thats even more reason to accept the Orange Order and permit them to march. Showing them the other cheek will earn their trust, frantically whinging every time they march will earn their resentment and disdain. Which do you think is more likely to succeed in winning Orangemen over?


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    #58
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I have no doubt there will be a few flair ups but not on a huge scale.

    That's some terribly wishful thinking on your part. It's totally out of touch with the reality of the troubles to think that Loyalists will go so easily into a united Ireland. There have been bombings, shootings and killings in the struggle for Northern Ireland to find its place within the United Kingdom and there will be bombings, shootings and killings if Northern Ireland is reunited with the Republic.

    I'll repeat my question - What's there to be gained from a United Ireland? All I can see is heartache.


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    #59
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Bebs wrote: »
    That's some terribly wishful thinking on your part. It's totally out of touch with the reality of the troubles to think that Loyalists will go so easily into a united Ireland. There have been bombings, shootings and killings in the struggle for Northern Ireland to find its place within the United Kingdom and there will be bombings, shootings and killings if Northern Ireland is reunited with the Republic.

    I'll repeat my question - What's there to be gained from a United Ireland? All I can see is heartache.

    Why can't be people just shut up and leave it the way it is now, there is peace and quiet...


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    #60
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Denerick wrote: »
    Thats even more reason to accept the Orange Order and permit them to march. Showing them the other cheek will earn their trust, frantically whinging every time they march will earn their resentment and disdain. Which do you think is more likely to succeed in winning Orangemen over?


    Letting them march, but whatever way it works Northern Ireland will always be the way it is, it won't change i just know.


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    #61
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Bebs wrote: »
    I'll repeat my question - What's there to be gained from a United Ireland? All I can see is heartache.
    I’m afraid the unite Ireland project, like most projects rooted in nationalism, is driven by the heart rather than the head, and consequently the logic is inverted. i.e. the proponents decide that a united Ireland is the solution and then search desperately to identify a problem which it solves.
    A united Ireland will not offer any opportunities that can not be attained without a UI and there is absolutely no evidence that any problems will be solved or that anyone, anywhere would be better off. At best, it may not make much difference but at worst, well heartache might be putting it very mildly :(.


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