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Atheist or Agnostic?

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    #122
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    strobe wrote: »
    No they do not and no it is not. That's all I'm going to post in this discussion because you obviously just don't get what people are trying to say to you or you are deliberately playing ignorant.

    Well, run away from the conversation if you must, but if you look at the definition of faith:

    faith (fth)
    n.
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

    And the definition of Agnostic:

    ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
    n.
    1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.


    You'll see that rationally agnosticism is a BELIEF.

    Belief is a SYNONYM of FAITH.

    Go google "faith synonym" (w/o quotes) and see that faith and belief mean the SAME THING.

    So, as they are synonyms I can easily do this:


    ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
    n.
    1. One who has faith that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.


    That's not my opinion, that's how synonyms work.

    You guys are just confusing the conepts of "religious faith" and "faith".

    It's understandable, but if you can look me in the eye and say I have no, "confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of any person, idea, or thing" I will think you're a freak/are being dishonest.


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    #123
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Here's the definition of faith:

    faith (fth)
    n.
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing

    That's one definition of faith. Here's another, from the same source as yours:

    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

    When we're talking about religious (especially Christian) faith, we're specifically talking about the second definition. And, as this is the relevant one to this discussion, this is the definition that we refute has any relevance to atheism, agnosticism, flying or getting out of bed.


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    #124
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    You're missing the point.

    Not believing in god is, by definition a faith.

    I think you are getting your definitions crossed.

    I lack belief in a god, I don't "not believe in" god. The lack of evidence to the contrary leaves me unconvinced that a god exists...
    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Just because you wouldnt use the term to describe things like flying on a plane doesn't mean you're right.

    Here's the definition of faith:

    faith (fth)
    n.
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

    You're saying you have none of that?

    And yet you only post one line of the actual definition, leaving out all others that don't exactly suit the point you are trying to make - which is why it's such a lazy choice of word to use in respect to atheism/agnosticism, it's open to many interpretations and most have religious connotations.

    n.
      • Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
      • Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
      • Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
      • often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
      • The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
      • A set of principles or beliefs.

      The vast majority of my beliefs do rest on some kind of logical proof or material evidence at some point...
      MilanPan!c wrote: »
      All beliefs ARE faiths.

      Believing there is insufficient evidence to support claims of the existence of a god is what kind of faith? :confused:


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      #125
      MilanPan!c
      Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


      phutyle wrote: »
      That's one definition of faith. Here's another, from the same source as yours:

      2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

      When we're talking about religious (especially Christian) faith, we're specifically talking about the second definition. And, as this is the relevant one to this discussion, this is the definition that we refute has any relevance to atheism, agnosticism, flying or getting out of bed.

      It's the SAME thing. You have NO definitive evidence (and no you don't) you have some evidence, which convinces you to believe something.

      Once it goes back to belief you're in the same boat.

      We all are.

      Belief and Faith are synonyms.

      You can't escape the fact that atheism is a BELIEF.

      I can't believe how scared of this you guys are.

      Be rational.

      You don't have proof. You have evidence (which is not conclusive) and belief. That's all.

      It's a LOT, but it's not enough to make it something other than faith.


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      #126
      Dades
      Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


      MilanPan!c wrote: »
      Belief is a SYNONYM of FAITH.
      Not given the context of the forum you are in.

      "Faith" in a religious context, is much more than a belief that it will rain later. You are conflating the meaning of "faith" versus "a faith" which is a huge mistake. Or intentionally disingenuous.

      You quote definitions for "faith". Here is the OED one:

      noun 1 complete trust or confidence. 2 strong belief in a religion. 3 a system of religious belief

      So when you describe atheism or agnosticism as "a faith" - you are clearly ascribing to it religious connotations - that is - that belief in either requires faith such as is required to believe in a religion.

      In short the word faith may be interchangeable with belief in everyday life, but in this realm meanings are somewhat more precise.


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      #127
      Gregor Samsa
      Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


      MilanPan!c wrote: »
      You guys are just confusing the conepts of "religious faith" and "faith".

      No, you're forgetting that many English words have multiple definitions, and it's important to use the correct one for the context. This is a religious discussion, and you're trying to shoehorn in a more general definition of faith.
      MilanPan!c wrote: »
      That's not my opinion, that's how synonyms work.

      "web" can mean a silken structure created by a spider, or a synonym for the portion of the internet that uses the "http" protocol.

      Now, using your methodology, the sentence:

      "The spider moved across the web"

      could be written as

      "The spider moved across part of the internet"

      So it's not really how synonyms work.


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      #128
      Ickle Magoo
      Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


      MilanPan!c wrote: »
      It's the SAME thing. You have NO definitive evidence (and no you don't) you have some evidence, which convinces you to believe something.

      Once it goes back to belief you're in the same boat.

      We all are.

      Belief and Faith are synonyms.

      You can't escape the fact that atheism is a BELIEF.

      I can't believe how scared of this you guys are.

      Be rational.

      You don't have proof. You have evidence (which is not conclusive) and belief. That's all.

      It's a LOT, but it's not enough to make it something other than faith.

      You are really not getting it, are you?

      Right, I have a neon yellow hippo at the end of my garden.

      Do you have faith I don't? What evidence do you have to support your faith?


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      #129
      MilanPan!c
      Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


      Ickle Magoo wrote: »
      I think you are getting your definitions crossed.

      I lack belief in a god, I don't "not believe in" god. The lack of evidence to the contrary leaves me unconvinced that a god exists...



      And yet you only post one line of the actual definition, leaving out all others that don't exactly suit the point you are trying to make - which is why it's such a lazy choice of word to use in respect to atheism/agnosticism, it's open to many interpretations and most have religious connotations.

      n.
        • Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
        • Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
        • Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
        • often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
        • The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
        • A set of principles or beliefs.

        The vast majority of my beliefs do rest on some kind of logical proof or material evidence at some point...



        Believing there is insufficient evidence to support claims of the existence of a god is what kind of faith? :confused:

        Yes. Yes it is.

        Someone show me evidence that there has never been a god, that there's no god in the deepest part of the universe or in an alternate universe or reality (all things predicted by science, mind).

        Can you tell me definitively there's no good and back it up with definitive proof?

        You can't obviously.

        I would LOVE IT if you could! W00000t!

        But you can't.

        And until you can, it's a BELIEF.

        And belief is just another word for faith.


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        #130
        MilanPan!c
        Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


        Ickle Magoo wrote: »
        You are really not getting it, are you?

        Right, I have a neon yellow hippo at the end of my garden.

        Do you have faith I don't? What evidence do you have to support your faith?

        You've just painted yourself in a corner.

        I have FAITH you don't, but no PROOF.

        As I have no proof, my belief based on all I know of this world, is that you're making it up.

        But I HAVE NO PROOF. JUST FAITH. Just a strong belief.


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        #131
        Canis Lupus
        Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


        Gah... just give it up Milan, you're ruining a decent thread.


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        #132
        Ickle Magoo
        Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        You've just painted yourself in a corner.

        I have FAITH you don't, but no PROOF.

        As I have no proof, my belief based on all I know of this world, is that you're making it up.

        But I HAVE NO PROOF. JUST FAITH. Just a strong belief.

        No, you have lack of evidence and no faith. You can't have faith in the negative, read back over your own definition...how's that corner looking? :pac:


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        #133
        MilanPan!c
        Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


        phutyle wrote: »
        No, you're forgetting that many English words have multiple definitions, and it's important to use the correct one for the context. This is a religious discussion, and you're trying to shoehorn in a more general definition of faith.



        "web" can mean a silken structure created by a spider, or a synonym for the portion of the internet that uses the "http" protocol.

        Now, using your methodology, the sentence:

        "The spider moved across the web"

        could be written as

        "The spider moved across part of the internet"

        So it's not really how synonyms work.

        That's an asinine argument.

        Either of those top two definitions work.

        You have NO definitive evidence that god doesn't exist.

        Prove me wrong.

        If you can't then all you have is a belief. It's all ANYONE HAS.




        ---


        So that's my final statement on this ridiculous argument.


        So me definitive unassailable proof that there is NO GOD anywhere in all existence, including other invisible dimensions...

        If you can not do that (and again I'd HAPPILY lose this debate in exchange for that PROOF) then what you have is BELIEF.


        So go on fellow athiests show me PROOF.

        And Agnostics, you'll need to show me PROOF that ALL RELIGIONS are completely wrong.

        Because if there is a god or if atheists can show so definitive proof then you're wrong.

        Really though, you're belief is contradictory to atheists belief.

        Three different belief systems:

        Belief in a religion
        Belief you can't know
        Belief you know that there is no good



        All just beliefs unless one of you can round up some definitive proof.


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        #134
        Dades
        Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


        I have a neon yellow hippo at the end of my garden.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        But I HAVE NO PROOF. JUST FAITH. Just a strong belief.
        Right there is where you shed your last bit of self-respect.


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        #135
        Gregor Samsa
        Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        It's the SAME thing. You have NO definitive evidence (and no you don't) you have some evidence, which convinces you to believe something.

        It's not the same thing. The first definition is just about belief or trust - the the most general sense. The second definition is specifically about belief without logical proof or material evidence. They're two completely different concepts - and we're discussing the second concept here.

        Also, you keep mentioning that we don't have "definitive" and "conclusive" evidence for our lack of belief in god(s), but you admit that we have "some" evidence - but the definition doesn't mention these qualifiers - you're introducing them for some reason.

        Some evidence is all that's needed.

        If we had no evidence, or didn't rely on any evidence, then it would be a question of faith, but that's not the case.


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        #136
        MilanPan!c
        Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


        Ickle Magoo wrote: »
        No, you have lack of evidence and no faith. You can't have faith in the negative, read back over your own definition...how's that corner looking? :pac:

        Of course you can have faith in a negative.

        Duh.

        Without proof all you have is faith.


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        #137
        hiorta
        Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


        'Faith' seems to have, or been given, some religious trappings, whereas 'belief' seems a more general expression, as in 'opinion' that something is so, but still unproven.


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        #138
        Zombrex
        Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Of course you can have faith in a negative.

        Duh.

        Without proof all you have is faith.

        No, faith implies trust.
        • I believe that in two seconds gravity will work the same way it is working now
        • I have confidence that in two seconds gravity will work the same way it is working now
        • I do not trust that in two seconds gravity will work the same way it is working now. I'm perfectly happy with the idea that the way gravity works may change in the next 2 seconds. I suspect this won't happen, but I don't trust it won't.

        Therefore I don't have faith that this will be the case. Faith is not simply confidence. It is trust in a position or out come. I have confidence that when I drop this rock it will fall down rather than up. I have faith that Superman will save me from this burning building.


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        #139
        Gregor Samsa
        Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Today, 10:53 : So that's my final statement on this ridiculous argument.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Today, 10:55: Of course you can have faith in a negative. Duh. Without proof all you have is faith.

        I've lost faith in you now :pac:


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        #140
        MilanPan!c
        Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


        phutyle wrote: »
        It's not the same thing. The first definition is just about belief or trust - the the most general sense. The second definition is specifically about belief without logical proof or material evidence. They're two completely different concepts - and we're discussing the second concept here.

        Also, you keep mentioning that we don't have "definitive" and "conclusive" evidence for our lack of belief in god(s), but you admit that we have "some" evidence - but the definition doesn't mention these qualifiers. Some evidence is all that's needed. If we had no evidence, or didn't rely on any evidence, then it would be a question of faith, but that's not the case.

        All beliefs have SOME evidence.

        Agnosticism is the very definition of neither side making a conclusive argument.

        You have rejected (as have I) the evidence that religious people accept.

        And you know what, they reject your evidence.

        As their is NO definitive evidence, you have belief that your evidence is superior.

        I find it very hard to believe that you all think that "atheism is a proven fact".

        Gravity isn't even a proven fact. Evolution is just a theory. Science is MOSTLY theories.

        There's nothing illogical with believing a theory that has evidence, but it's a belief.


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        #141
        Ickle Magoo
        Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Of course you can have faith in a negative.

        Duh.

        Without proof all you have is faith.

        I said faith in THE negative but of course, using the correct terminology would blow apart your argument so, duh, you just keep on trucking with some terrible English & woeful semantics.

        Without proof all you have is lack of proof - and we don't tend to deal in proofs anymore than we deal in faith. If people choose to believe something despite there being no evidence, that is faith. Remaining unconvinced of a positive position due to lack of evidence is the rational default.


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        #142
        Gregor Samsa
        Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        All beliefs have SOME evidence.

        Not faith based ones. Or, at least, they don't rely on the evidence for their belief.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        I find it very hard to believe that you all think that "atheism is a proven fact".

        You mean you find it very hard to have faith that we all think that "atheism is a proven fact".

        And it would need to be faith, because nobody has said anything remotely approaching that, so there's a complete lack of evidence to support the claim.

        The issue is that you think it's black and white: "proven fact" one one had, "faith" on the other. We're (constantly) refuting that.


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        #143
        The Mad Hatter
        Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        So that's my final statement on this ridiculous argument.

        Thank ****.


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        #144
        Dades
        Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        There's nothing illogical with believing a theory that has evidence, but it's a belief.
        Correct. But it's not a faith.


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        #145
        liamw
        Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        It's important to be honest with yourself if you want to grow.

        Please take your own advice here


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        #146
        Ickle Magoo
        Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        All beliefs have SOME evidence.

        Agnosticism is the very definition of neither side making a conclusive argument.

        No, agnostics think it's unknowable. The word means a- without & gnosis- knowledge. It's got nothing to do with arguments.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        I find it very hard to believe that you all think that "atheism is a proven fact".

        Who said that? You are starting to sound like some of the more crazy theists that wander in here now.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Gravity isn't even a proven fact. Evolution is just a theory. Science is MOSTLY theories.

        Science doesn't work with proofs, that would be mathematics.

        "Just" a theory? Theories are the pinnacle of scientific understanding, you do realise that? A hypothesis that has been tested and conclusions repeated and has not been improved upon until it becomes generally accepted that is the most likely explanation.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        There's nothing illogical with believing a theory that has evidence, but it's a belief.

        Now you are getting into the realms epistemology. Belief is psychological, an opinion or conviction. If there is evidence to support a claim then it cannot be false, it stops being a belief and becomes a justifiable truth or knowledge.


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        #147
        toiletduck
        Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


        It'd be nice next time, when a religious person comes in telling us what we believe, if they actually read the thread. Specifically the range of values link, or others attempts at explaining agnostic atheism etc.


        MilanPan!c wrote:
        Gravity isn't even a proven fact. Evolution is just a theory. Science is MOSTLY theories.

        You know what, you really don't deserve a computer.


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        #148
        Ickle Magoo
        Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


        toiletduck wrote: »
        It'd be nice next time, when a religious person comes in telling us what we believe, if they actually read the thread.
        MilanPan!c wrote: »
        Athiests (like me).....

        O_o


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        #149
        toiletduck
        Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭toiletduck


        Ha! That's what I get for reading while dying.



        I do have a belief that I need lots of coffee.


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        #150
        Dades
        Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


        toiletduck wrote: »
        Ha! That's what I get for reading while dying.
        Now that's commitment to the A&A forum!


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        #151
        Zillah
        Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


        Dades wrote: »
        Now that's commitment to the A&A forum!

        "Must...counter....fallacies....aagh..."


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