DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

kelly66 · 01-12-2009 11:38pm

Who needs dab , i cant see people running out buying the new radios soon, another waste of money and as for getting help dont we give rte 200 million plus a year ,RTE international is not just for expats in the uk its for irish license fee payers who dont feel need to watch eastenders and the like on RTE ,but if they wish to they can switch to other freesat channels to watch non irish programing

Elmo · 02-12-2009 12:40am

kelly66 wrote: »

Who needs dab , i cant see people running out buying the new radios soon, another waste of money and as for getting help dont we give rte 200 million plus a year ,RTE international is not just for expats in the uk its for irish license fee payers who dont feel need to watch eastenders and the like on RTE ,but if they wish to they can switch to other freesat channels to watch non irish programing

EastEnders would not be shown on RTÉ International it would be made up of Irish programming only.

Someone has to invest in the future, and DAB and digital is part of that future. In the same way as RTÉ Radio is available on FTA Digital Satellite. As time goes on Digital radio receivers will become standard and at some stage RTÉ will need to be involved better now than waiting for someone else to do it.

Sam Russell · 02-12-2009 11:34am

RTE has 7 extra radio channels on DAB now. These should be added to the ongoing tests for DTT. At least we would be able to hear them then, and not letting them drift unheard on the ether.

I think more people in the long term will listen to them via DTT than DAB.

Elmo · 02-12-2009 12:26pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think more people in the long term will listen to them via DTT than DAB.

I am not a great Radio listener TBH but the attraction of Radio on TV I don't get.

But yes they may as well be on the DTT tests.

Sam Russell · 02-12-2009 12:36pm

The benefit is that the TV is in a prominent position in which to listen to Radio. There are many programmes worth listening to in that situation.

Many, many times the pictures on Radio are better than on the TV.:)

Especially the rubbish that is on TV at the moment.:mad:

slegs · 02-12-2009 1:07pm

With a proper sound system Radio over DVB-T is really good and I have used is quite a lot over the last year. Most new TVs have a screensaver effect for radio. Listening to GAA match on a Sunday afternoon over the TV/sound system has a strangely retro feel but the sound quality is amazing.

Satdog · 02-12-2009 2:12pm

Elmo wrote: »

I am not a great Radio listener TBH but the attraction of Radio on TV I don't get.

But yes they may as well be on the DTT tests.

If you have a STB you can use the audio out to your hifi and turn the telly off. Crystal clear sound.

02-12-2009 3:48pm

Also if you have a sony bravia-you have the option of switching the monitor off whilst listening to the radio.
All the better if said audio is hooked up to a sound system.

kelly66 · 02-12-2009 8:59pm

Elmo wrote: »

EastEnders would not be shown on RTÉ International it would be made up of Irish programming only.

Someone has to invest in the future, and DAB and digital is part of that future. In the same way as RTÉ Radio is available on FTA Digital Satellite. As time goes on Digital radio receivers will become standard and at some stage RTÉ will need to be involved better now than waiting for someone else to do it.

I know that RTE international can only show home grown programs,thats what i said who needs to watch any programs bought in to be shown on rte1/2 or tv3 , when most of these programs are available on freesat channels anyway.

I dont know whats so exciting about DTT anyway ,rte1/2 tv3 tg4 and a load of radio channels for free big deal, and a few freesat channels that will be pay per view

byte · 02-12-2009 9:04pm

Well, somebody from RTE Pulse did suggest that their station would be on DTT at some stage (on the Radio forum it's mentioned)

Elmo · 03-12-2009 12:05am

kelly66 wrote: »

I know that RTE international can only show home grown programs,thats what i said who needs to watch any programs bought in to be shown on rte1/2 or tv3 , when most of these programs are available on freesat channels anyway.

Completely agree.

The fuss. National Infrastructure is important. Better reception. and while not agreeing with this next point A competitor to Sky and UPC.

I would like to see Irish channels buying in programming, employing a few staff to sell ads on programming bought in for the Irish market rather then the foreign companies selling advertising to an Irish market.

I would also like to see more Irish programming, and television that is regulated in this country.

And RTÉ International or an International Irish Channel (IIC).

Bob_Harris · 03-12-2009 5:00pm

Elmo wrote: »

Completely agree.

The fuss. National Infrastructure is important. Better reception. and while not agreeing with this next point A competitor to Sky and UPC.

I would like to see Irish channels buying in programming, employing a few staff to sell ads on programming bought in for the Irish market rather then the foreign companies selling advertising to an Irish market.

I would also like to see more Irish programming, and television that is regulated in this country.

And RTÉ International or an International Irish Channel (IIC).

I heard RTE International is not going ahead, due to having no money.

Elmo · 03-12-2009 6:27pm

Bob_Harris wrote: »

I heard RTE International is not going ahead, due to having no money.

Downturn in the Economy plus RTÉ left in the middle of DAB and DTT, with little co-operation from anyone. Or at least that seems to be the situation.

kelly66 · 03-12-2009 8:18pm

Bob_Harris wrote: »

I heard RTE International is not going ahead, due to having no money.

I for one dont believe its about money, its about PROTECTIONISM.God forbid the license fee payers of ireland would get access to irish programs on a free platform like freesat, by the way people are choosing free to air /freesat at an ever increasing rate from cork to donegal ,Freesat has a hell of a lot more people watching than DTT

. What if freesat reaches 10% /20% maybe 30% , What will RTE tell their advertisers then. Ive no problem with DTT onevision But RTE should stop this protectionism and put RTE international free to air ,
Let the license fee payers decide with one remote control whether they want to pay for sky ntl or onevision or go go free to air

The Cush · 04-12-2009 3:23am

Latest update on OneVision from The Irish Times, TV3 and Arqiva reducing their shareholding, TV3 from 10% to 5%, Arqiva from 40% to 25%.

20% to Eircom (40% to 60%) or a new shareholder? UPC?

Back to Earth for terrestrial TV
Fri, Dec 04, 2009

IT’S ALMOST seven months since the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) awarded the three commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) multiplex contracts to the One Vision consortium, yet little progress has been made in getting it to air.

I’m told that another change to the shareholding structure will be put to the regulator for the approval of its board when it next meets on December 14th.

One Vision comprises Eircom, TV3, Setanta and Arqiva, a specialist DTT operator in Britain. Initially, the partners had 25 per cent each but, in September, the BAI signed off on a change that saw Eircom and Arqiva moving to a 40 per cent shareholding, while TV3 and Setanta took 10 per cent each.

Under the new plan, TV3 will reduce its holding to 5 per cent.

Arqiva is also expected to reduce its holding to about 25 per cent. Eircom, meanwhile, will take a larger stake, possibly even a majority one.

This might all be irrelevant if One Vision cannot secure a transmission agreement with RTÉ, which will operate the terrestrial DTT multiplex, and build and manage the network.

One Vision claims RTÉ wants a €20 million upfront security deposit.

RTÉ is facing a shortfall in revenues this year of €75 million that could leave it nursing a deficit of €15 million.

One Vision hasn’t yet been established as a legal entity and RTÉ, not unreasonably, doesn’t want to build a transmission service without some financial security.

RTÉ is also believed to have cut One Vision’s annual transmission costs from €10 million to €8 million.

Another sticking point for One Vision is whether government funding will be made available to promote the analogue switchover.

In Britain, the government chipped in money for an information campaign, but there are no plans for that here.

With the economy in recession, DTT is no longer as attractive to commercial operators. Denis O’Brien’s Boxer group handed back the licence earlier this year.

The analogue switchoff is pencilled in for the end of 2012, so One Vision needs to get cracking. Otherwise, commercial DTT might be put on standby for some time.

© 2009 The Irish Times

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 10:12am

The Cush wrote: »

Latest update on OneVision from The Irish Times, TV3 and Arqiva reducing their shareholding, TV3 from 10% to 5%, Arqiva from 40% to 25%.

20% to Eircom (40% to 60%) or a new shareholder? UPC?

A case of rearranging the shareholding deckchairs on the Titanic? The previous poster made a very important point about market segmentation:

Outside the traditional UK overspill areas the multichannel system of choice is likely to be Freesat, encouraged by the recession,more channels, all UK services, HD and free PVR. Freesat will have to cut its box prices to compete with Freeview HD ( apart from modulation they are very similar systems) and indeed they may well be integrated in time. Those opting for pay + RTE will choose Sky. So commercial DTT has lost this key target market.

Cable viewers will tend to stick with cable for inertia reasons or switch to Freesat.

Those in overspill areas have the DTT option in the South East and will stay with analogue in border counties till 2012 or get Freesat.

This Christmas will probably seal the fate of commercial DTT in Ireland permanently.

Sponge Bob · 04-12-2009 11:01am

This makes matters clearer. It increases the possibility of an actual rollout from 17% to 39% according to Sponge Bobs patent technomeme reader

The final obstacle is eircoms essentially disastrous past experimentation with IPTV. They will need to source and test something like the BT IPTV modem and have not managed to do so yet I understand.

I reckon the launch will be this time next year while they prepare the full ecosystem for IPTV and have lots of petty squabbles with Comreg and the BCI ...or whatever soup of quangos we will have this time next year

Standalone Commercial DTT in Ireland is a dead duck and has been for years. The Freesat proposition only helps clarify why it is so.

Commercial DTT as part of a mix involving a unified STB/Broadband modem makes some sense. However HD IPTV is also a dead duck in Ireland where only SD IPTV is really a runner.

DTT has NO spectrum compared to the Astra2 cluster which has 20-25 times more spectrum than DTT will POST ASO when DTT finally goes to its full complement of 6 Muxes.

In the meantime commercial DTT strives to be relevant with only 3 muxes which is around 2-3% the capacity up in the Astra2 slot nowadays. I already have more free channels from there than I will ever get on commercial DTT, even post ASO and with DVB-T2 thrown in for luck

If eircom did not want to make a go of it then TV3 could not make a go of it and Setanta certainly couldn't either having gone to the wall since the licence award.

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 11:06am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This makes matters clearer. It increases the possibility of an actual rollout from 17% to 39% according to Sponge Bobs patent technomeme reader The final obstacle is eircoms essentially disastrous past experimentation with IPTV. They will need to source and test something like the BT IPTV modem and have not managed to do so yet I understand.

I reckon the launch will be this time next year while they prepare the full ecosystem for IPTV and have lots of petty squabbles with Comreg and the BCI ...or whatever soup of quangos we will have this time next year

Standalone Commercial DTT in Ireland is a dead duck and has been for years. The Freesat proposition only helps clarify why it is so.

DTT as part of a mix involving a unified STB/Broadband modem makes some sense.

DTT has NO spectrum compared to the Astra2 cluster which has 20-25 times more spectrum than DTT will POST ASO when DTT finally goes to its full complement of 6 Muxes.

In the meantime commercial DTT strives to be relevant with only 3 muxes which is around 2-3% the capacity up in the Astra2 slot nowadays. I already have more free channels from there than I will ever get on commercial DTT, even post ASO and with DVB-T2 thrown in for luck

If eircom did not want to make a go of it then TV3 could not make a go of it and Setanta certainly couldn't either having gone to the wall since the licence award.

Note that the next BTVision box will be T2 compatible: due Q3 2010.

Elmo · 04-12-2009 1:16pm

Eircom should not hold this company as a majority shareholder. They shouldn't have even been let apply as a company. They own far to much of our communications infrasture. The remain the largest player even without DTT.

Complete monopoly and I don't see how the Competition Authority can allow them own another major company in the state.

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 1:26pm

Elmo wrote: »

Eircom should not hold this company as a majority shareholder. They shouldn't have even been let apply as a company. They own far to much of our communications infrasture. The remain the largest player even without DTT.

Complete monopoly and I don't see how the Competition Authority can allow them own another major company in the state.

I wonder if the European Commission will put a stop on this?

Elmo · 04-12-2009 1:59pm

One Vision also want the government to foot the bill for Digital Switchover promotion.

I wonder if they would be happy to see the Government market DTT FTA channel plus FreeSat, Sky and UPC Digital and One Vision.

Or will the government with no foresight just give One Vision money to promote PayTV with no mention of FTA service.

I am going to go with the later.

:mad:

scath · 07-12-2009 6:22pm

Instead of the Dept's DTT Information Campaign I suspect the Government will probably give a commitment to the ASO campaign financially but they don' need to find the money for another year. So a commitment is something they should be able to do. Its not something it should wiggle out of regardless of the budget situation. That is unless you consider TV not a necessity. That wouldn't be helpful when you consider operators here pay tax etc...and license fees.

One cost effective clever solution could be advising OneVision that its open to them to apply to the BAI Sound and Vision Fund for programming that explains DTT to the public. I'm sure BAI can approve such through its procedures and as its contribution to assisting DTT. It can do the same for ASO. This would thus reduce the need for expensive advertising regarding same. RTÉ and TV3 also have programmes that can use a segment of them to explain DTT and ASO also. I am sure TV3 and RTÉ could provide advertising at discounted rates for Onevision also. Libraries can get involved with posters. Newspapers can provide column inches. It need not be expensive. The website is the most important part.

This is something that could help assuage One Vision's concerns. In terms of ASO, all broadcasters and players could get involved in promoting the platforms and pointing to a website and programmes about ASO with a portion of that dedicated to programmes which again can come from applications for joint programming or seperately to the BAI under the Sound and Vision Fund.

I don't think OneVision can expect the Dept to fund DTT switchover specifically as the Department would have to be platform neutral for competition reasons. That surely is a matter for RTÉ to fund. The Dept has to be seen in my view to be platform neutral, despite the importance of DTT. It would be for RTÉ and One Vision to promote DTT switchover. However ASO is a different matter because it concerns spectrum. Here again programmes and libraries and the contribution of all broadcasters and platform operators could contribute cost of advertising in return for mention in an ad campaign. You can argue that RTÉ and the BAI should provide for ASO funding rather than the government

DTT switchover can be promoted in the context of all platforms thus giving all platforms a mention. The UK is the template. My dissertation is with the Department and outlines such a strategy. Governments in the EU have funded switchover. Given the benefit of such to ComReg its not unreasonable to expect the State bodies to do so.

UPC I suspect will probably coincide switchoff of analogue cable in 2012 and would probably start promoting digital cable and HD heavily in 2011 or sometime mid next year. So it would suit UPC to have a switchover campaign and thus make savings on analogue cable spectrum charges, handing back spectrum to ComReg.

Their is a cost saving on advertising in promoting all platforms, who pay to get a mention. I don't think Sky would have any problem with that.

I suspect that OneVision would have to pay a portion towards it, Sky a portion, UPC a portion and RTÉ a portion aswell as IPTV providers. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

So, I think promoting DTT is a matter for RTÉ and One Vision and like cable not the government. ASO however would be a matter for the BAI and all players to contribute to because it provides clarity to the viewer and benefits all players.

I still think that launch by November 2010 is still possible coming into Christmas. I think OneVision should really include USB sticks in their strategy aswell as becoming an IPTV player.

I would also think that One Vision should talk with Sky about getting involved. Sky could use the platform to promote its channels and provide financial strength to the consortium. Sky are multiplaform so they don't mind where they get their subs. Multiplatform allows them reach, for advertising purposes.Sky already work with Eircom regarding broadband, Sky Anytime etc...so there's no problem there. Sky could make the element of sky subs to Onevision itself. Setanta likewise. I'm not suprised with Arquiva reducing its stake as it has little to gain unless it took a stake in the network. Its merely multiplex advisor and manager so its a wise move for it I think. DTT Provides Eircom with the most gain as enabling triple play to compete with UPC and get similar deals for its IPTV division possibly under the One Vision brand.

The security bond I think must be the sticking point. The solution in my opinion would be for Arquiva to take a stake in RTÉ NL and receive a dividend from the multiplexing rental to the other stakeholders. I don't see that happening. I would see Eircom and Arquiva providing the bond, with little from setanta and TV3. Someone like sky would be a big help on the bond as they have the funds. I think Eircom should look to bring in Sky on the consortium. Sky could take up 2 multiplexes, 1 for free to air channels including them, 1 for movies and sports and one multiplex could be handled by Eircom with the ASO mux going to Eircom with each company getting a dividend from profitability.

This is a test to Eircom's triple play. Its central to its growth strategy. I think that makes sign off likely and why Eircom may be upping its stake. I would say no problem bringing in UPC if it wasn't a direct comptitior with Eircom and then leave out Sky. But if Eircom is there, then UPC doesn't make sense as DTT will want to promote triple play DTV, internet, phone. If One Vision don't sing off that its bad for Eircom really. I could see Liberty swoop in and use Onevision to strengthen it against Sky's charge. In that situation, the best thing to happen for Eircom would be for Sky to acquire it.

So I think One Vision are holding out for the best deal as long as they can. They've already got a €2 million reduction on multiplexing which is good for them. If they can get something similar on the security bond say down to €15 and get Sky on board, then you could have a manageable situation for paying the bond.

I think it'll happen. I don't know whether Sky will get involved. They might. They'd be winner if they did because it'd give them the upper hand on UPC.

As regarding making Pay DTT profitable, I think Sky and Eircom together could make it profitable and mutually beneficial for each other with the smaller stakeholders making a few bob. Sky or UPC for those who want lots of channels, Onevision for those on a smaller budget who want ease of installation. One Vision and Sky have 1 thing over UPC...that is free-to-air. Either Sky and Eircom or UPC, TV3, Setanta and perhaps or not Arquiva with RTÉ in Easy TV is way to go. This would prevent commercial DTT getting squeezed. It could provide for lower end subscriptions while cable or satellite provides for the higher end.

Hadn't thought of the Picnic boxes but I'd be advocating T2 boxes. The Picnic boxes is not a good enough reason for Sky to get involved. Reach in the main benefit for Sky. This would enable it to lead UPC in terms of its channels and also its geographical reach.

Sam Russell · 07-12-2009 8:18pm

If $ky got involved, they could use all those Picnic boxes they have.:D

Maybe that is why Currys have upped the price from £20 to £400.

The Cush · 09-12-2009 8:34pm

This from the Department of Finance 2010 Estimates for Public Services and Summary Public Capital Programme. Estimate for the Dept of Communications under the heading of Broadcasting. It doesn't specify what the money will be used for, possibly related to launching DTT, advertising etc or consultants planning for ASO?

C.5 - GRANTS FOR DIGITAL TERRESTRIAL TELEVISION - €50,000

scath · 10-12-2009 4:16pm

The Cush wrote: »

This from the Department of Finance 2010 Estimates for Public Services and Summary Public Capital Programme. Estimate for the Dept of Communications under the heading of Broadcasting. It doesn't specify what the money will be used for, possibly related to launching DTT, advertising etc or consultants planning for ASO?

Good stuff The Cush.....maybe One Vision missed that and the Dept need to just remind them. Maybe they feel its not enough of a contribution.

Well anyway spending probably wouldn't begin until end of 2011 anyhow and run for 1 year with December 2012 as switchoff date...so the still have a year and another budget. I think given we're a small country I don't think that much outlay would be necessary on the campaign. I could be wrong I suppose. But newspapers, libraries and TV programmes ad news and a website will do alot of the informing, cheaply.

scath · 10-12-2009 4:18pm

BTW, receiving RTÉ News Now in Carrick, Leitrim, don't know if signal is Cairn Hill or Truskmore. Also able to receive DTT in Longford now (station) meaning they must have turned up the power from Cairn Hill

Sam Russell · 10-12-2009 4:45pm

I would think the shorter time to Analogue Switch Off the better. 12 months would be plenty. They could launch the service now as it is ready for 80% of the population, or nearly so. Then announce that switch off will be main transmitters first, with the others coming later. Once it starts, the take up will be very fast as word will spread. But they need to stop the sale of any TVs that are not compatible now, as this will ease the switchover.

There is deffinitely a conspiracy of silence about DTT. No one in the media is talking about it. Dail questions are answered in the bland - no info - mode. Nothing is getting out about it. Responses are all about NTL and $ky.

The quicker they launch, the better.

Elmo · 10-12-2009 4:45pm

scath wrote: »

As regarding making Pay DTT profitable, I think Sky and Eircom together could make it profitable and mutually beneficial for each other with the smaller stakeholders making a few bob. Sky or UPC for those who want lots of channels, Onevision for those on a smaller budget who want ease of installation. One Vision and Sky have 1 thing over UPC...that is free-to-air. Either Sky and Eircom or UPC, TV3, Setanta and perhaps or not Arquiva with RTÉ in Easy TV is way to go. This would prevent commercial DTT getting squeezed. It could provide for lower end subscriptions while cable or satellite provides for the higher end.

I think that is what the BCI wanted. 3 Muxs, 3 companies. Sky Mux providing Pay TV, Setanta Mux also providing pay TV and a TV3 Mux providing free to air Commercial TV, and the FTA PSB Mux. (Companies are just suggestions).

The Cush · 10-12-2009 5:22pm

scath wrote: »

Good stuff The Cush.....maybe One Vision missed that and the Dept need to just remind them. Maybe they feel its not enough of a contribution.

Well anyway spending probably wouldn't begin until end of 2011 anyhow and run for 1 year with December 2012 as switchoff date...so the still have a year and another budget. I think given we're a small country I don't think that much outlay would be necessary on the campaign. I could be wrong I suppose. But newspapers, libraries and TV programmes ad news and a website will do alot of the informing, cheaply.

A similar amount was allocated last year - €49,000 but this remained unused this year and was reallocated in early Dec.

This was Simon Coveney's comment relating to the reallocation

I welcome the fact that savings have been made in administration. That is an indication that the Department is serious about making savings where possible and doing things in a more streamlined way. There are smaller amounts in other subheads too. Opposition spokespeople are very concerned about the DTT issue. If money is being taken from a grant aid programme for DTT, is the Minister sure we will be able to provide that money next year when DTT materialises? I am concerned about that. We are making savings on the basis of delays, knowing that there will be significant budgetary problems next year. I presume there was an opportunity to roll over grant aid for DTT from this year into next year, assuming we will proceed with the DTT programme in some form or other. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that.

And a contribution from Liz McManus

Do we call DTT another cock-up? Maybe it is just bad luck, but it certainly is not money that will not have to be found at some stage. It was allocated this year, it will pile-up for next year and we all know that the Department will have great difficulty in terms of the Estimates in ensuring that it can cover all of the areas with which it is dealing. These are growth areas. We depend on these areas, such as energy and communications, for our future and economic growth.

Elmo · 10-12-2009 5:29pm

The Cush wrote: »

A similar amount was allocated last year - €49,000 but this remained unused this year and was reallocated in early Dec.

This was Simon Coveney's comment relating to the reallocation

And a contribution from Liz McManus

If the money doesn't promote all Digital forms of TV then it should not be used.

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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