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Why No ??

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  • 07-06-2008 4:16pm
    #1
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭


    I am new to these forums, and looking around me I cannot understand
    why people are so against the new Treaty.
    So far Libertas and their Scaremonging have gone as far as "Vote No or join a EU super state" or "Vote Yes and we will be forced to accept Gay Marriage, Abortion, Euthanasia etc."
    Bull****.
    There is nothing in the Treaty that ratifies any of this and is just plain nonsense.
    How desperate are Libertas to swing this to the No side ?
    Another thing I hear from Libertas is that "People in other EU states are against the Treaty, and don't want it to pass, be a voice for the People of Europe, Vote NO !!"
    Don't make me laugh, This treaty must be ratified by ALL states in the EU, They may not get a referendum, but their Elected Officials have helped in putting the Treaty together.
    Do you honestly think these Politicians would get involved in a treaty as unpopular as Libertas says, thereby putting their jobs on the line ?
    I didn't think so.
    Come on folks, the EU has been good for Ireland and with your help we can make sure the EU will continue to be good for Ireland.
    without the EU the Celtic Tiger would never have been born, and sure he maybe in his old years atm, but a Yes vote on the Lisbon Treaty will make sure investment continues to flow into this small insignificant island.


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    #2
    monkeyfudge
    Registered Users Posts: 23,216 ✭✭✭✭monkeyfudge


    Well maybe the Yes campaign should counter with reasons to vote yes. Because all that are being thrown out are vague slogans.


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    #3
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I think it has to do with people loosing faith in parliamentary democracy and in particular politicians. The tribunals have done so much damage to our faith that people are not willing to believe their own elected representatives. They are more likely to believe independent organisations like libertas and coir. It's sad to see but the few corrupt ones have blackened every politicians name.


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    #4
    Duiske
    Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Bull****.
    nonsense.
    Don't make me laugh.

    Thats your opinion. Other people have different opinions to your. Learn to live with it.
    By the way, any interests you would like to declare ?.


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    #5
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Yes, it is my opinion, witch is what Libertas is, an opinion.
    It seems we all have to live with these annoying little opinions.
    Prove me wrong, show me the paragraph on the Lisbon Treaty that mentions any of the above.
    I have read the Lisbon Treaty, have you ?


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    #6
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Yes


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    #7
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    good, then you'll know what a good deal it is for Ireland :D


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    #8
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    My opinion is that Iwasfrozen is a No stooge.


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    #9
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    No campaign = Outlines why to vote no.

    Yes campaign = Poster with local TD's face on it, smiling giving the thumbs up saying "Vote Yes".

    Libertas are a right-wing crowd and are polar opposite to the rest of the no campaign.


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    #10
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Yes because Youth Def....I mean Coir are a real bunch of pinkos and crusties:rolleyes:

    Lisbon is too complicated to be sold on a poster, most of the selling is done through leaflets and by getting people to read the Treaty.


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    #11
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It seems we all have to live with these annoying little opinions.
    Welcome to democracy :pac:


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    #12
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The_Minister wrote: »
    Yes because Youth Def....I mean Coir are a real bunch of pinkos and crusties:rolleyes:

    Lisbon is too complicated to be sold on a poster, most of the selling is done through leaflets and by getting people to read the Treaty.

    It's a disingenous campaign to stick up the local TD's face and get people to vote based on their familiarty with him, rather than the LT. For me, the yes campaign seems to be attacking the NO campaign and using the above tactics rather than outlining the benefits of accepting the Lisbon Treaty.


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    #13
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's a disingenous campaign to stick up the local TD's face and get people to vote based on their familiarty with him, rather than the LT. For me, the yes campaign seems to be attacking the NO campaign and using the above tactics rather than outlining the benefits of accepting the Lisbon Treaty.

    I agree the yes camp is being run extraordinarily badly. But they are right when they bring the no campaigners to account for their blatant lies.


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    #14
    mrquiteaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭mrquiteaguy


    Reasons why there are going to be 5 no votes in my household.

    It doesn't seem democratic to me not to allow all voters in all the 27 countries to vote on this.There should be a referendum in all the countries.
    I am sick of politicians knowing and deciding whats good for me.
    Brian Cowen strikes me as a bit of a bully,calling people ******.
    Call me cynical but i only see the E.U Parliment as another well paid career opportunity for our politicians.
    Anyone living here knows how our country has changed from being Irish to feeling like it is no longer our country.
    For me this vote is a vote for Irish identity.


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    #15
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    mrquiteaguy wrote: »
    Reasons why there are going to be 5 no votes in my household.

    It doesn't seem democratic to me not to allow all voters in all the 27 countries to vote on this.

    They have voted on it through their parliaments who in turn were voted in by the people.


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    #16
    BJC
    Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭BJC


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So far Libertas and their Scaremonging have gone as far as "Vote No or join a EU super state" or "Vote Yes and we will be forced to accept Gay Marriage, Abortion, Euthanasia etc."
    Bull****.

    I am pro-choice and I'm still in the no vote. So those scare tactics do not appeal to me at all.

    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Don't make me laugh, This treaty must be ratified by ALL states in the EU, They may not get a referendum, but their Elected Officials have helped in putting the Treaty together.

    That means nothing, all our major political parties are telling us to vote yes except sinn fein, that doesnt mean we agree to it just like the people of the countries whos governments drew up the treaty don't necessarily agree to it.

    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The EU has been good for Ireland and with your help we can make sure the EU will continue to be good for Ireland.
    without the EU the Celtic Tiger would never have been born

    The EU will continue to be very good for Ireland under the current constitution.

    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    this small insignificant island.

    Taking into consideration our contribution to the world as a whole especially in the area of information technology and pharmaceuticals, how can you cal our tiny Island "insignificant".


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    #17
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    is_that_so wrote: »
    They have voted on it through their parliaments who in turn were voted in by the people.

    The point is, the elite voted on behalf of the people who had no voice in the matter. Just because you vote for someone doesn't mean you agree with every decision that they will make, and when it comes to important areas like this - the people should be afforded the right to vote. It's undemocratic to not allow the people of the EU a say. Spin it whatever way you like.


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    #18
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's a disingenous campaign to stick up the local TD's face and get people to vote based on their familiarty with him, rather than the LT. For me, the yes campaign seems to be attacking the NO campaign and using the above tactics rather than outlining the benefits of accepting the Lisbon Treaty.
    And that is why Mary Lou isn't on any SF posters, and Joe Higgins wouldn't been seen dead on a Liabon poster, right?
    Wrong.
    There are two reasons that those politicians are on those posters:
    1. They are people who are respected and endorsed by the people as being able to make decisions for the public, and thus their opinion is important, as they are saying that this treaty is good for Ireland. (this doesn't apply to the Labour posters of nobies obviously).
    2. To get faces known for the locals. And yes, SF are doing this like any other party.


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    #19
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Mary Lou may have been on a few posters, but the rest of Ireland has been generic Sinn Féin posters. I know this because I came back from Portugal last week and on my way home from the airport, I saw generic Sinn Féin posters with no politicians on them all the way home.

    In retrospect, the FF & FG posters were plastered with TD's - with the vote yes slogan. SF used it's poster space to highlight some key areas. So no, you're incorrect. The ratio of posters that SF have politicians on is probably about .005%


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    #20
    mrquiteaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭mrquiteaguy


    is_that_so
    Just thought i would make the point.
    Mrquiteaguy. ;)


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    #21
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    dlofnep wrote: »
    In retrospect, the FF & FG posters were plastered with TD's - with the vote yes slogan. SF used it's poster space to highlight some key areas. So no, you're incorrect. The ratio of posters that SF have politicians on is probably about .005%

    Really I've seen lots of FG td's and councillors on poster, but all the FF ones have no photos on them.


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    #22
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    The problem the yes campaign has, is that the benefits of the Lisbon Treaty aren't easily condensed down to a slogan. And I agree that the yes campaign should be doing a better job in informing people about the treaty, but at the moment, they aren't getting a chance to sell it on it's benefits, when they're having to focus their efforts on countering all the misinformation put forth by the no side.


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    #23
    BMH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 804 ✭✭✭BMH


    mrquiteaguy wrote: »
    It doesn't seem democratic to me not to allow all voters in all the 27 countries to vote on this.There should be a referendum in all the countries.
    This was not an EU decision, this was the decision of the governments in those countries. It has nothing to do with the EU, and if the EU was seen to force governments in holding a costly referendum, there'd be far more bitching about encroachment on sovereignty. Hardly a valid reason to vote no.
    I am sick of politicians knowing and deciding whats good for me.
    Brian Cowen strikes me as a bit of a bully,calling people ******.
    Again, absolutely nothing to do with the treaty.
    Call me cynical but i only see the E.U Parliment as another well paid career opportunity for our politicians.
    ...Are you serious?
    Anyone living here knows how our country has changed from being Irish to feeling like it is no longer our country.
    For me this vote is a vote for Irish identity.
    If you talking about the influx of Polish migrants that managed to keep our inflation under control and sustain our economic boom a little while longer, the treaty doesn't change anything there.


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    #24
    BMH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 804 ✭✭✭BMH


    BJC wrote: »
    I am pro-choice and I'm still in the no vote. So those scare tactics do not appeal to me at all.
    Why are you voting no? Caeuc's reasons?


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    #25
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    sink wrote: »
    Really I've seen lots of FG td's and councillors on poster, but all the FF ones have no photos on them.

    Pretty sure all the FF poster's I've seen had TD's on them.


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    #26
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Mary Lou may have been on a few posters, but the rest of Ireland has been generic Sinn Féin posters. I know this because I came back from Portugal last week and on my way home from the airport, I saw generic Sinn Féin posters with no politicians on them all the way home.

    In retrospect, the FF & FG posters were plastered with TD's - with the vote yes slogan. SF used it's poster space to highlight some key areas. So no, you're incorrect. The ratio of posters that SF have politicians on is probably about .005%
    As Sink says, the vast majority of the FF ones are just about the referendum.

    And 0.005% me shiny. I would say at the very least half of those in Dublin have her face on them.


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    #27
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I don't live in Dublin, so I can't say - but the rest of Ireland has been generic posters and I've been through a few counties. I could go take a few pictures of random posters in my own city if you like.

    Off-topic - the font colour for the SF posters is absolutely stupid. Unless you're up near it, it's unreadable.

    Also off-topic - does anybody know who's posting up the red and white no campaign posters? There is no name under them. There are not from SF, and I don't think it's libertas either as they have been putting their names up on theirs.


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    #28
    eoin2nc
    Registered Users Posts: 688 ✭✭✭eoin2nc


    As I can see it there is no real benefit of the Lisbon Treaty. Its just that the EU now with 27 members is being run the same way as it was with 15. The Treaty is needed to streamline the EU and how it works. Its not going to affect our 'Irishness' tax rates ect. The EU has been the best thing to happen to this country since our independence. I cant understand some peoples fear of it, 'I dont know what the Treaty is about, but its coming from Europe, Im going to vote NO' That is the biggest reasons for people voting no at the moment


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    #29
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The point is, the elite voted on behalf of the people who had no voice in the matter. Just because you vote for someone doesn't mean you agree with every decision that they will make, and when it comes to important areas like this - the people should be afforded the right to vote. It's undemocratic to not allow the people of the EU a say. Spin it whatever way you like.

    No spin at work here at all. Our constitution requires a referendum, other EU countries don't. I think that is commonly known as a fact.


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    #30
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    eoin2nc wrote: »
    As I can see it there is no real benefit of the Lisbon Treaty. Its just that the EU now with 27 members is being run the same way as it was with 15. The Treaty is needed to streamline the EU and how it works. Its not going to affect our 'Irishness' tax rates ect. The EU has been the best thing to happen to this country since our independence. I cant understand some peoples fear of it, 'I dont know what the Treaty is about, but its coming from Europe, Im going to vote NO' That is the biggest reasons for people voting no at the moment

    I think it's more to do with centralising power and other factors like increasing tax expenditure on our military and a wealth of other usings pertaining to certain communities and works than that in fairness.


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    #31
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Also off-topic - does anybody know who's posting up the red and white no campaign posters? There is no name under them. There are not from SF, and I don't think it's libertas either as they have been putting their names up on theirs.

    I think that's coir.


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