Dating?

Joseph Reilly · 28-02-2008 11:13am #1

Hi all,

I wanted to discuss a topic that everyone in the church seems to have a different take on, that is dating. I was browsing in a Christian book store a couple of months back and I came across a book called 'I kissed dating goodbye' by Joshua Harris.

The title instantly caught my eye because it is my personal belief that dating is wrong. Instead I would be an advocate of courtship, which encouages believers to be prayerful about choosing a life partner, being accountable to a pastor and/or other Christian councilors.

Most importantly I prefer the courtship method over dating because you start the relationship making it clear you want to pursue the possibility of marriage with that person. I am curious what everyone's opinion is on the matter. Also, if anyone has read the book, I'd be interested on your take from what you read.

God bless,

Joe

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 11:34am

Hello Joe, welcome to the forum!

Good post. The question I would ask is how do you define dating. I definitely think sex or anything that is likely to lead to sex is off limits for any kind of date.

A Prayerful attitude to finding a partner is definitely a good idea.

What would you see as the difference between long-term dating and courtship?

God bless,
Noel.

Joseph Reilly · 28-02-2008 11:54am

Hi Noel,

Your question brings up a valid point in that we often label things differently, but mean the same things. Dating and courtship have no doubt been used to describe one the other by certain indviduals.

However, one notable difference from my vantage point is that dating is a term for a relationship were no clear commitment has been made i.e. we will get to together and see how it goes.

As Joshua Harris put it, more often than not dating provides a relationship status that seeks intimacy without commitment. While courtship is making a commitment at the start of the relationship to show you are serious about considering marriage. In other words you are earning intimacy.

Joe

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 12:12pm

Interesting points and something I've never really thought about. I can see how courtship is a better idea.

The difficult I suppose is meeting someone who wants a similar courtship arrangement.

Akrasia · 28-02-2008 12:14pm

courtship as described by the OP, like religious faith, is a peculiar intellectual process, whereby you need to 'know' the final outcome before you even begin investigating.

I think it is a shame that people would deny themselves a whole range of wonderful human experiences by seeing romance only as a route to life long marriage.

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 12:18pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I think it is a shame that people would deny themselves a whole range of wonderful human experiences by seeing romance only as a route to life long marriage.

What kind of wonderful experiences would a courting couple miss besides sex?

Soul Winner · 28-02-2008 12:22pm

What you do in your personal life has nothing to do with your Pastor and certainly not any other members of your Church. By all means if you request it, listen to any advice he/she/they might have but they are not the overseers of your life. They have their own personal lives to attend to and nobody is an expert on life. Just take what God provides you in life and run with it. Work it out between you and Him. Nobody else need get involved because it is none of anyone else's business.

How can you commit to someone if you don't know them? And how can you get to know them if you don't date/court them? I regard dating and courting as the same thing in the sense that you are trying to get to know someone better. Going out with someone for the first time would be a date and not specifically courting. But several similar dates IMO would be courting.

I can assure you that God is not bothered about your dating habits as much as He is about your faith-ing habits in His Word. Just date and get to know people and don't let anyone judge you about it. I'm sure if you find the right person for you then you will not be interested in anybody else.

PDN · 28-02-2008 12:53pm

Akrasia wrote: »

courtship as described by the OP, like religious faith, is a peculiar intellectual process, whereby you need to 'know' the final outcome before you even begin investigating.

I think it is a shame that people would deny themselves a whole range of wonderful human experiences by seeing romance only as a route to life long marriage.

Congratulations on totally misrepresenting what the OP actually said.

Joseph actually posted "I prefer the courtship method over dating because you start the relationship making it clear you want to pursue the possibility of marriage with that person."

He certainly was not talking about knowing the final outcome since he used the word "possibility".

I agree with Joseph's point of view. Dating can mean going out with someone for a variety of reasons (not to be the odd one out in a group etc.). Christians believe that the correct setting for sexual romance and intimacy is marriage. Therefore courtship is going out with someone of the opposite sex in order to explore whether this is the right person for you to spend a lifetime of marriage. To engage in a romantic relationship when marriage is not a viable possibility at all is not a sensible option for a Christian.

When I was 18-years old I made the mistake of dating someone who I knew could never be my marriage partner. The girl in question was extremely attractive, but shall we say not too bright? I enjoy the cut and thrust of intellectual debate, and I knew that the two of us sitting across the breakfast table from each other for the next 60 years would be deeply frustrating and unhappy for the both of us. Yet others were urging me to go out with her, and her physical attraction was tempting, so I went out for a couple of dates with her. That just made it all the harder to break it off, particularly since the poor girl was besotted with me (which probably means her eyesight was even more defective than her IQ). Since I am the kind of person who hates upsetting or hurting anyone's feelings, I almost stayed in the relationship out of a desire to avoid the unpleasantness of dumping the girl. It would have been much smarter, and kinder, not to have dated someone with whom marriage was never an option.

The next time I asked a girl out I had already been praying whether this was 'the one'. Our courtship was a way of making sure that she was the right person, and of course finding out if she felt the same way. I was pretty sure this was the girl I wanted to spend my life with, but it was entirely possible that the courtship process would bring something to light that would scupper those plans (eg if she turned out to be a racist or something). Happily all went well, we got engaged after 3 months of courtship, and we have now been married for 22 years - with each year getting even better and our love continuing to increase.

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 12:58pm

Good post PDN.

Asiaprod · 28-02-2008 1:16pm

I don't normally get involved in this type of a debate, but just for the record. As a Buddhists I do have a personal method of practicing, and I used my equivalent to others here asking God to assist them in their catch. I got lucky, I think. I also had great fun with the dating method;) Just for the record.

Joseph Reilly · 28-02-2008 1:46pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

What you do in your personal life has nothing to do with your Pastor and certainly not any other members of your Church. By all means if you request it, listen to any advice he/she/they might have but they are not the overseers of your life. They have their own personal lives to attend to and nobody is an expert on life. Just take what God provides you in life and run with it. Work it out between you and Him. Nobody else need get involved because it is none of anyone else's business.

How can you commit to someone if you don't know them? And how can you get to know them if you don't date/court them? I regard dating and courting as the same thing in the sense that you are trying to get to know someone better. Going out with someone for the first time would be a date and not specifically courting. But several similar dates IMO would be courting.

I can assure you that God is not bothered about your dating habits as much as He is about your faith-ing habits in His Word. Just date and get to know people and don't let anyone judge you about it. I'm sure if you find the right person for you then you will not be interested in anybody else.

While it is true that your personal life is your own business, it is still wise to seek council from those who have experience in the area of marriage. (Pro 12:15)

Second, if you are prayerful and obedient, God can lead you to the right person. (Pro 19:14) Does that mean you go to the lady with a proposal and do the wedding straight away? No, of course not. However, you can use the courtship period as a period of confirmation of what God has put on your heart. If you start a relationship on an up front basis that you want to pursue marriage you are being fairer to the other person also.

When you date someone with no clear definitions and nobody (outside) guiding you and the relationship breaks, it leads to one or both parties being heartbroken. This I say from my personal experience alone. I have found it to be a very self centered system where people get used. Again going from my own personal experience I have found dating to be more about self, while marriage is about giving everything for your spouse, not what you take from them and I believe courtship is a better foundation to build that on.

Joseph Reilly · 28-02-2008 2:20pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Interesting points and something I've never really thought about. I can see how courtship is a better idea.

The difficult I suppose is meeting someone who wants a similar courtship arrangement.

That's a good point. Not many, but some ministries today have a courtship system where if I felt led by God I can approach the marriage committee or Pastor first for advice/direction. One other thing is when you decide to go ahead is seeking the lady's parental permission from her folks. This particular practice differs depending on the rules of the ministry or what the people involved are comfortable with.

However, even if you don't have such a system in your ministry, you can be prayerful, seek Godly council if you desire. In regards to the woman believing in courtship as well. Although, I am single and have no personal basis to go on yet, I have heard testimonies of friends that if you really seek out God and he gives you the green light, he will open the doors.

So if you were to approach the lady you can still be up front about your intention and give her time and space to pray about the issue. The same God will speak to her if he has spoken to you, as he's not a God of confusion.

JimiTime · 28-02-2008 6:08pm

It would certainly be of more benefit to your church goers to give them the tools to fend for themselves. Also making it clear that your door is always open for advice if they seek it etc. This idea of being accountable to Pastors etc is a very bad idea IMO and experience. The only time which an elder of the church should get involved, other than by the request of the person, is if one of the flock is bringing themselves, others or the congregation into moral decline to put it mildly. I would sincerely ask that you reconsider your position in the interest of all involved, not to have approvals from pastors etc. As i said in my opening, give people the tools and the support, but don't start creating a judgemental insular environment. Seriously, I've seen the consequences of such folly, and it aint good!

Joseph Reilly · 29-02-2008 10:15am

JimiTime wrote: »

It would certainly be of more benefit to your church goers to give them the tools to fend for themselves. Also making it clear that your door is always open for advice if they seek it etc. This idea of being accountable to Pastors etc is a very bad idea IMO and experience. The only time which an elder of the church should get involved, other than by the request of the person, is if one of the flock is bringing themselves, others or the congregation into moral decline to put it mildly. I would sincerely ask that you reconsider your position in the interest of all involved, not to have approvals from pastors etc. As i said in my opening, give people the tools and the support, but don't start creating a judgemental insular environment. Seriously, I've seen the consequences of such folly, and it aint good!

While you should certainly give the tools to your congregation to fend for themselves what I am saying is it is better for the person in question to utilise the resources of good council that is at their disposal. Also, during the courtship period it can become challenging to resist sexual temptation before marriage, so voluntary accountability is definitely a good idea. That can be to anyone who you can trust and will give you good advice such as pastors, mentors, parents and close friends.

Joseph Reilly · 29-02-2008 12:30pm

Wicknight wrote: »

This seems like a bit of a weird way of looking at relationships.

Are you guys saying that you would break up with someone as soon as you discover a flaw in them that you, at that moment in time, wouldn't want in your future wife.

In a "oh I didn't realise you snore, I really love you and all but really don't want a wife that snores right now, goodbye" kinda way?

Bit of a cold, clinical, way of looking at love. It also ignores that fact that people grow on each other after spending time with them. Going into a relationship while constantly thinking from the start "Will I marry this women" I would imagine simply ends up sabotaging the relationship from the get go.

Everyone has flaws and no I would not advise somebody to break up a relationship because the other person has flaws, but you do need to compliment one another. By God's grace it's good if the woman I will marry is stronger in the areas I am weak and vice versa.

On the point of sabotaging a relationship, there's a difference in both people looking towards marriage and guaranteeing marriage. That's why courtship is there for the couple to get to know one another. If you both find out during a courtship that you are not good for marriage sure a breakup will be disappointing, but once you are up front and honest throughout the relationship, the people will appreciate it. Such cases don't have to be looked at as failures because both people have learned in the process while looking out for each other. At the end of the day though a sabotaged marriage is worse than a sabotaged courtship.

JimiTime · 29-02-2008 1:07pm

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

While you should certainly give the tools to your congregation to fend for themselves what I am saying is it is better for the person in question to utilise the resources of good council that is at their disposal.

Two points here. Who says what good council is? How can you be so generic by saying it is 'better' for the person in question? Why do you want to set up an environment where it is frowned upon not to seek council? Why not just leave it to the couple to decide if they wish to seek advice?

Also, during the courtship period it can become challenging to resist sexual temptation before marriage, so voluntary accountability is definitely a good idea.

Could you detail what 'voluntary accountability' is?

That can be to anyone who you can trust and will give you good advice such as pastors, mentors, parents and close friends.

Is this not done by people anyway? Confiding in people about your relationship? Maybe asking a friend or family member etc? Why must it be made into this 'system' of courtship? It sounds like a controlling mechanism to me. Like so many things in religion and politics, its a wolf in sheeps clothing IMO. Its presented as this 'protection', a way of upholding moral standards to the benefit of all. However, I have witnessed this in practice, and it becomes an environment of judgement and suspicion, where certain people take it on themselves to be the moral guardians of the flock.

Zombrex · 29-02-2008 1:33pm

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

Everyone has flaws and no I would not advise somebody to break up a relationship because the other person has flaws, but you do need to compliment one another

Certainly, but then why would you date someone who you felt didn't compliment you in the first place?

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

On the point of sabotaging a relationship, there's a difference in both people looking towards marriage and guaranteeing marriage.

Yes but that is the problem.

If you are focusing on marriage from the start, focusing on whether or not you would marry this person, you are more likely to discard someone early who doesn't match your marriage check list at that moment but who may have actually grown on you and in a year or 2 years of dating that you then would be really happy to marry at that later time, even if you weren't at the start.

Ultimately marriage shouldn't be about check lists. It is about how you feel with someone once you have really gotten to know them. Its hard to give someone a chance to get to know them if you are thinking all the time about whether you want to marry them.

The flip side of that is also people rushing into marriage without actually getting to know someone properly, which can lead eventually to an unhappy marriage when the two people do get to know each other in the marriage and realize they don't actually like each other very much.

If a person is courting (ie setting out up front to get a wife) and meets someone who fits their check list in their head they may think "Great, I've found the perfect women" and because their aim has always been marriage, that is the goal of the whole process, they may very well get married, without proper time of simply "dating" to really get to know the person properly.

Dating provides the chance for someone to get to know the other person without the muddle and pressure of marriage introduced at the very start. If over the course of dating they get to know them and they get to a point where they think they are the one, then they can think about marriage. If they get to the point where they think no this isn't the person for me, they break up, just like courting.

TBH I can see no advantage to "courting" over normal dating, and plenty of disadvantages.

PDN · 01-03-2008 3:13pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Ultimately marriage shouldn't be about check lists. It is about how you feel with someone once you have really gotten to know them. Its hard to give someone a chance to get to know them if you are thinking all the time about whether you want to marry them.

The flip side of that is also people rushing into marriage without actually getting to know someone properly, which can lead eventually to an unhappy marriage when the two people do get to know each other in the marriage and realize they don't actually like each other very much.

If a person is courting (ie setting out up front to get a wife) and meets someone who fits their check list in their head they may think "Great, I've found the perfect women" and because their aim has always been marriage, that is the goal of the whole process, they may very well get married, without proper time of simply "dating" to really get to know the person properly.

Dating provides the chance for someone to get to know the other person without the muddle and pressure of marriage introduced at the very start. If over the course of dating they get to know them and they get to a point where they think they are the one, then they can think about marriage. If they get to the point where they think no this isn't the person for me, they break up, just like courting.

TBH I can see no advantage to "courting" over normal dating, and plenty of disadvantages.

Is this sage advice on courtship and marriage coming from a position of experience - or is this untried theory? Have you actually put this into action and found the right Mrs Wicknight, or is this wishful thinking?

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 4:40pm

PDN wrote: »

Have you actually put this into action and found the right Mrs Wicknight, or is this wishful thinking?

Well no, that is kinda the point (which you seem to be missing)

I'm 28 and I am not going to rush into getting married to the first person who comes along simple because that is what society tells us to do. I have seen this happen to people my own age who last about 5 years and then separate because they end up miserable with each other (you would not doubt say they just aren't trying hard enough)

Our still rather religious society pushes the idea that if you "love" someone you should marry them straight away, because being in a relationship with them outside of marriage is wrong and dirty.

People then end up marrying the first person they want to be in a relationship with, convincing themselves that they will feel the same forever when in fact they have so little proper experience with relationships that they couldn't possibly know this.

The point isn't that this will find you Ms. Right. The point is to realise that you can't tell if a person is Ms. Right or not until you have both experience with relationships and have gotten to know the person really well.

The reason I haven't found Ms. Right (ie convince myself that someone who isn't actually is) is because I do follow my own advice.

philologos · 02-03-2008 4:43pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Our still rather religious society pushes the idea that if you "love" someone you should marry them straight away, because being in a relationship with them outside of marriage is wrong and dirty.

That's clearly not true, I know of some Christians (my aunt included) who have gone for over 10 years going out before getting married.

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 5:01pm

Jakkass wrote: »

That's clearly not true, I know of some Christians (my aunt included) who have gone for over 10 years going out before getting married.

How does that demonstrate that this is clearly not true?

philologos · 02-03-2008 5:06pm

Wicknight wrote: »

How does that demonstrate that this is clearly not true?

That the idea of getting married straight away is not pushed by the Christian Church, infact most encourage people getting to know eachother as you have described above. Although you don't have much to assert your claim do you?

eth0_ · 02-03-2008 5:10pm

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

Most importantly I prefer the courtship method over dating because you start the relationship making it clear you want to pursue the possibility of marriage with that person.

How can you possibly start 'courting' someone with the intention of marrying them? It makes a mockery of marriage to think that you would have the intention of marrying someone you did not know intimately (and i'm not talking 'intimately' in the sexual meaning of the word).

Also - this approach must rule out most of the opposite sex for you. Are you happy to reduce your 'courting circle' to members of your church?

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 5:14pm

Interesting research on the divorce rates of Christians, particular "fundamentalist" Christians. It was surprising to me, as I had accepted the traditional idea (which this research suggest may be a myth) that devout Christians have lower divorce rates (which I figured was explained by them disapproving of divorce in the first place)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

The quotes from religious leaders that the results make no sense are interesting.

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 5:22pm

Jakkass wrote: »

That the idea of getting married straight away is not pushed by the Christian Church, infact most encourage people getting to know eachother as you have described above. Although you don't have much to assert your claim do you?

Perhaps my use of the phrase "straight away" was confusing. I don't mean after the second date. I mean before the person has reached the stage that people like myself in the secular world would view as where a person really gets to know someone else. That can include when they move in together, or it might simply be the first time they go on holiday together. Or it simply might be the first time a person stays over and you see what she looks like in the morning without her make up.

Húrin · 02-03-2008 5:25pm

Joseph Reilly wrote: »

Hi all,

I wanted to discuss a topic that everyone in the church seems to have a different take on, that is dating. I was browsing in a Christian book store a couple of months back and I came across a book called 'I kissed dating goodbye' by Joshua Harris.

The title instantly caught my eye because it is my personal belief that dating is wrong. Instead I would be an advocate of courtship, which encouages believers to be prayerful about choosing a life partner, being accountable to a pastor and/or other Christian councilors.

How old are you? That's a lot of pressure.

Fanny Cradock · 02-03-2008 5:25pm

Wicknight wrote: »

How does that demonstrate that this is clearly not true?

I'm not sure it does beyond an anecdotal level. However, I'd be interested to know what evidence your are basing your claim that our religious society requires that we marry straight away. Anecdotal evidence perhaps? My understanding of marriage (and it's based on the experience of people close to me) is that the Church doesn't encourage people to rush into marriage.

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 5:41pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

My understanding of marriage (and it's based on the experience of people close to me) is that the Church doesn't encourage people to rush into marriage.

Do the Christian churches not discourage people from living together before they marry? Do they not discourage people from "dating", preferring the concept of "courting" (the topic of this thread). Do they not encourage people to get married before they submit to sexual lust?

Fanny Cradock · 02-03-2008 5:53pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Do the Christian churches not discourage people from living together before they marry? Do they not discourage people from "dating", preferring the concept of "courting" (the topic of this thread). Do they not encourage people to get married before they submit to sexual lust?

I don't think your reply quite answers my question.

However, the answer to most for those would be yes. If anything, adherence to the above would actually require more time to determine if you where making the correct decision.

Zombrex · 02-03-2008 6:10pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't think your reply quite answers my question.

Well you seem to be saying that my opinion of what Christianity teaches young people with relation to marriage is simply based on anecdotal evidence. I am merely asking is my opinion wrong?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

However, the answer to most for those would be yes.

Well then we get into the issue of whether or not you consider that "rushing in" or "straight away" ... I would. I think getting married before you know a person in an environment that is similar to marriage is rushing into marriage.

My experience of American evangelical churches on the internet also would suggest that they encourage young people to get married sooner rather than later, and particularly not to date different people for long periods. Now it would be assumption on my part that they represent all of Christian teaching (which clearly isn't unified), but it certainly seems to represent a significant interpretation (they of course quote the Bible to back up everything they teach)

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

If anything, adherence to the above would actually require more time to determine if you where making the correct decision.

Well no, I don't see how that works. If you never live with someone you will never know if you will be happy living with them. You can date for 6 months or 5 years, if you never live with them you aren't going to know any more after the 5 years.

The problem is that if you are happy with everything about the person with the limited circumnstances of your courtship you may think "Great, the person for me". And then your first week living together in married bliss you may find a hundred things you hate about the person, things you never see unless you actually live with them.

To me this is similar to people who carry on internet relationships for months and then "break up" (debatable if they were ever going out) a few days after they meet each other in real life.

To know someone you have to know them. That is not a process you can cheat, nor is it something you should rely solely on how they present themselves to you in certain circumstances. If you only ever see someone in a certain situation (ie out on a date) you see only one side of them.

philologos · 03-03-2008 8:13am

Wicknight wrote: »

I mean before the person has reached the stage that people like myself in the secular world would view as where a person really gets to know someone else. That can include when they move in together, or it might simply be the first time they go on holiday together. Or it simply might be the first time a person stays over and you see what she looks like in the morning without her make up.

That's simply relativity on your part though isn't it? I'm also pretty sure that not all people in the secular world base their decisions as you do, or even people like you do.

You can get to know someone without moving in with them in my view anyway.

Dating?

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